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Should APBT's be used in protection/guard training!

Discussion in 'Sports & Activities' started by Flipside, Jun 18, 2005.

  1. Dameon

    Dameon Big Dog

    I would like to clarify something. NOBODY other than my club members see my dog bite. Formal demonstrations at schools in city parks etc.. I ONLY show OB. I am here to only make the breed look good.
     
  2. Texasbulldogs

    Texasbulldogs Top Dog

    Your statement "shell of a real bulldog" is quite a great assumption.
    How so? I don’t think I “assumed” anything, but stated the facts. Once a person starts’ using similar criterion’s the Shepard community uses for breeding decisions how are they not, only left with a “shell of a real bulldog”? The three parts Schutzund concentrates on helps perpetuates this breed how? For instance there is a local “pit bull” by me that (I believe) has a BH, WH, and currently going for it SCH 3. Well trained dog, but it was attacked a few months ago in a field during training by a stray dog. This well trained and titled “pit bull” immediately started screaming…so is it not a “shell of a bulldog”? Yet because of its “titles” it will get bred, yet if sticking to the standard…it would have been spayed at the minimum.


    Nothing about the OB and bite work has to do with great dogs, however that is what they do in Schutzhund, FR, KNPV, PSA, etc... it dose show that the dog has control and is another testament to having a great dog.
    Is the whole concept of Mandio, French, and Belgian Ring, along with Schutzhund not to be used to evaluate breeding stock, breed suitability testing? Sound like it is about finding “great dogs” worthy of breeding, to me.


    I was talking about he hardest traing I was speaking mainly of French Ring and the suit disciplines not schutzhund.
    I still don’t think it would qualify as the “hardest training on the planet”. To obtain a Ring 3 title, normally around 35-45 minutes. That is not a lot of work for a canine athlete, though they are under some stress. But none of which can constitute “hardest training on the planet”. I’m sure a Lab taken straight out of his kennel run to sit in and swim in icy water all day retrieving ducks, is just as tired, mentally drained, and also well trained. Yet no one is saying they are receiving the “hardest training on the planet”.


    They would just think that they are watching an APBT run down the field and bite a person.
    If you also agree, why do you train them for said sport?


    I don't see a problem with breeding your dog for a specific discipline, the herding breeders ahve been doing it for years in man work and herding ability.
    That’s the problem everyone wants to get a breed and start destroying it by breeding away from its original form and function! If someone wants to do personal protection sports, get a Dutch Shepard, Malinois, Beauceron, etc. don’t ruin this breed! Like you’ve stated the herding breeders have been doing it for years, stick with them besides the sport is tailored around them.



    I am tryingto get these traits in my dogs when I breed them.
    Why not use a dog designed and tailored for said sport instead of trying to breed the APBT for it and ruin the breed in the process?
     
  3. Hankdad

    Hankdad Pup

    You assume that the dog in question does not have what it takes to be a real APBT in your eyes or breed standard. Like previously stated real dogs are few and far between. Schutzhund was created as a GSd test for breeding however you are correct but it has also become the largest and most accepted test for dog s to do with protection work. I can not and will not say that it will ever become the best test for the APBT. At this time I would haveto say that Hoggin is that, but that is just my opinion.

    Yes all the disciplines started off as a BST and still are. I think that the APBT in a nutshell can not do what it was bred to do in most states so they acceptence of these BST where made for the breed. I still think it is one of the best ways to test your dog other than Hoggin. A lot of us can not go hoggin so it really limits it to man and weight pull work.

    I would not say that the Lab has done anything different fomr what it ws bred for and would not be as tired or drained. Like you stated why breed against or away from the traits that are natural so that wouldn't be anything the Lab couldn't handle. As far as time on the field in a FR3 the dog is therefor more like and 1hr-1hr15min. This is mentally draining and physically draining. Yes for most APBT that have any type of conditiong that is not that bad but that is also why people are looking to them for the work they can keep their focus and have incredible stamina. Just what the breed type is so why not focus it in a way that has man work involved.

    Why do I train for said discipline, because I can and it is even better to prove people wrong or show them that they are not all like what the media says they are. I will also be training one in drug detection work too. When people find out my dog has a CGC and a TDI as well as helps my wife as assistance dog then does bite work they flip out. Good dog balanced and social.

    How is breeding for specific triats that I like in my dogs ruining the breed? If they are natural traits and genes that happen anyway? Is this not just lowering the odds of what I want in a dog? Does this not encourage and the traits that I want to show up more? I have not bred dogs for long and don't consider myself and "Breeder" I have had to litters with great success for what I do with my dogs. They are family friendly and social. They have been everything that the people that own them wanted so I am happy with that.
    Why don't i get a DS, Mal, or Beau? BecauseI don't like herding breeds, I like the respect that the Bully breeds command and I like the fact that they are public enemy number 1. I like proving people wrong about the breed. I love the undying loyalty that they have for us and the incredible work ethic. The herders just like the work but they most certainly don't have the peopel aspect about them.
    Tex, if you just think that the APBT doing man work is just the bitchification of the breed let me know. I will respect your opinion and leave it at that.
    I think we come from 2 different perspectives about the breed.
    I do have a question for you. What in your opinion is the best breed test?
    BTW, some video I promised of a friends dog. I really like this dog and think he is asolid as they come. Not bad looking either. I couldn't tell you how he is bred though sorry. Enjoy
    www.desertrockkennels.com/videos/ringpart1.wmv
     
  4. miakoda

    miakoda GRCH Dog

    Tex, I can answer your last question. It's easy. It's because some people's love for themselves, their own pride, their own vanity, their own ego, & their own reputation far outweights the love of the breed of dog they own. If this were not true then the breed would not be forced to change into something that it is not--that person would love it & accept it for what it is. To love a breed is to accept it wholeheartedly the way it was, the way it is, & the way it is to be without feeling a need to change something. If one looks at a breed, says he loves it, yet tries with all his might to change it, does not really love the breed, but rather loves the feeling & the "what ifs" the breed might do for him or bring to him. It's sad really. So many say they love the American Pit Bull Terrier but all they really love is the name. The rest of the dog is looked down upon & forced into a mold that many hundreds of years of selective breeding have kept it away from.
     
  5. catcher T

    catcher T CH Dog

    he's not talking about changing a whole breed, he's only trying to make everyone understand that they can be trained like any other dog. With a positive side to it. one of my dogs is a shetland sheepdog, I don't have a herd of sheep for her to chase around, when she was young she would try to nip at any fast moving objects, kids running, someone on a bike etc, I didnt change the breed, just stopped her from this behavior. Why wouldn't anyone want apbts displayed in a positive light? It would be rediculous to keep every breed doing what they were intended to do. Japanese chins sat in bird cages by the front door to show wealth. Lahso Apsos sat in the sleeves of the kings ready to come out and attack. So, not one person on this forum does conformation, obedience, flyball, agility etc. with their apbt. are they all couch potatoes? What can one do with their pit that wouldn't show an inflated ego?
     
  6. Texasbulldogs

    Texasbulldogs Top Dog

    You assume that the dog in question does not have what it takes to be a real APBT in your eyes or breed standard.
    How am I “assuming” once again? Out of all the APBT’s that are used for said sport I’ve not seen one game-bred dog partaking in said competition. So if they aren’t being breed for their gameness first and foremost, are they bulldogs? Howard B. has some nice working titled dog would breed enthusiast think they are true bulldogs?


    Like previously stated real dogs are few and far between.
    Could that be because they aren’t designed to be used in protection type events? Until recently many of the clubs didn’t want them training with them.


    Schutzhund was created as a GSd test for breeding however you are correct but it has also become the largest and most accepted test for dog s to do with protection work.
    So since it’s became the “largest” (still unknown by most) we should now start using this breed? Why would anyone care if this breed does a breed suitability test for another breed?


    I can not and will not say that it will ever become the best test for the APBT.
    I’d hope not nor should it ever be ONCE! This is not a herding breed so why test for herding standards?


    At this time I would haveto say that Hoggin is that, but that is just my opinion.
    How is hog hunting? If that was true the original “hog dogs” wouldn’t be decedents of curs that didn’t workout in the pits, now would it.


    I still think it is one of the best ways to test your dog other than Hoggin. A lot of us can not go hoggin so it really limits it to man and weight pull work.
    Neither are the “best ways to test” this breed.

    I would not say that the Lab has done anything different fomr what it ws bred for and would not be as tired or drained.
    How could he not be tired or drained, being most are pulled straight out of their kennels without any conditioning prior? Then is the Lab wouldn’t be “tired or drained” why should a herder doing Schutzhund or Ring sport be any different then?


    Like you stated why breed against or away from the traits that are natural so that wouldn't be anything the Lab couldn't handle.
    I’m not sure why people like you do it, get a breed and then want to change it and turn it into something it was never supposed to be. It happens with every working breed of dogs there is! Just look at Lab’s for instance and you’ll soon see the overwhelming majority of them are useless couch warmers that couldn’t hunt if their lives depended on it. You could go down the list on most every breed, sadly!

    As far as time on the field in a FR3 the dog is therefor more like and 1hr-1hr15min.
    Well according to D. Berneuil, J. Camarena, D, Piton (judges) say otherwise, though M. Valladon, C. Del Pech (French judges) say that’s more of a normal time in their country. That’s all reputable judges I know of in the sport and have seen their dogs, except for the French judges only meet them at events.


    This is mentally draining and physically draining.
    Like you stated earlier they are breed to handle that stress and should be able to! Not sure it’s as mentally draining as most would have you believe. The dog is trained for it and knows everything that’s going to happen.


    Just what the breed type is so why not focus it in a way that has man work involved.
    Simple…not breed nor designed for it!

    Why do I train for said discipline, because I can and it is even better to prove people wrong or show them that they are not all like what the media says they are.
    How are you showing anyone anything, you’ve all ready stated most haven’t heard of Schutzund, etc? Plus how did it help the German Shepard in the 60’s, Doberman’s in the 80’s, and Rottweilers in the 90’s? I’ll tell you…It didn’t make a damn bit of difference!

    When people find out my dog has a CGC and a TDI as well as helps my wife as assistance dog then does bite work they flip out. Good dog balanced and social.
    That’s great most are impressed with any “title” despite the ease of some. I’m not though the CGC and TDI aren’t hard to get on a dog, many a mutts receive them yearly. Heck if anything the CGC is easier now a days than ever before, used to only get one shot at it. Nor is basic bite work hard, though impressive to those unfamiliar with it.


    How is breeding for specific triats that I like in my dogs ruining the breed?
    You want to start selectively breeding for a sport this breed was never intended to do. You are trying to breed this dog for traits Shepard breeders look for in their stock. How are you not ruining it?


    If they are natural traits and genes that happen anyway?
    Just because a dog has or may have prey, defense, social, pack, food, sex, fight, etc. drives doesn’t mean it should be used for protection work. If you are interested in it why not get a breed designed and breed for said task?


    I have not bred dogs for long and don't consider myself and "Breeder" I have had to litters with great success for what I do with my dogs. They are family friendly and social. They have been everything that the people that own them wanted so I am happy with that.
    Since you’ve bred a few litters, post their pedigrees.



    Why don't i get a DS, Mal, or Beau? BecauseI don't like herding breeds, I like the respect that the Bully breeds command and I like the fact that they are public enemy number 1.
    Ok so it’s nothing more than an “image” thing for you? Not sure how a “bully breed” commands respect over any other breed. If you are looking for a breed that commands respect, why not get a Bandog, Tosa, etc?


    I like proving people wrong about the breed. I love the undying loyalty that they have for us and the incredible work ethic.
    How can you “prove” anything if most American’s haven’t heard of the sport? Their “undying loyalty and work ethics” didn’t come from breeding to Shepard standards! Plus it only gets them titled as “sleazy” in the protection sport community.

    The herders just like the work but they most certainly don't have the peopel aspect about them.
    Because most in the protection sport community don’t like their dogs with the social drive of the APBT and consider it a “sleazy” dog!


    I think we come from 2 different perspectives about the breed.
    Guess so?


    I do have a question for you. What in your opinion is the best breed test?
    However a person believes they can keep the gameness in the breed!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2005
  7. rocksteady

    rocksteady I'll drink to that..

  8. bdub

    bdub Top Dog

    a good dog is protective over its owner by instinct if it feels the owner is in danger,i nkow this for a fact!so why the hell would you want to train them to be protective if tthey already are.hell killer is very protective of me ,for example,,i was walking him around one night so he could do his thing and not mes up the house,,as we were walking this dude pops up to my left about 10 feet away,killer seen the guy and went off,barking growling and trying to get some-ooh rah--anyway the guy stopped dead in his tracks,wouldnt move till i was well on my way,that night 3 college kids got robbed,,coincidence i think not,,,anyway im against training them for protection guard purposes because they already are protective
     
  9. catcher T

    catcher T CH Dog

    Thats a good point, however, with a trained dog on command you can call him back if it turns out to be the nieghbors kid lurking around. I am just a firm believer in a well trained dog. I want my dogs going off of my head and not on their own. I give my dogs the watch command and that is what they will do, just watch. If someone comes closer then they will bark without moving from my side. That is enough to frighten anyone usually. I can give the attack command (never have unless someone was in a bite suit) then someone will get hurt, I would only do that if my life was threatened. The dogs at that point may act on their own.
     
  10. kenitodrake

    kenitodrake Big Dog

    Ok I have many opinions on this my first is a APBT is able to do every other sport any other dog can do but better so why not have our pitbulls trained in protection it would show people it could be the protector and not the predator. My second one is that it isn't recommend to train a APBT in protection because the out command isnt very effective on the bull dog because once his mind is on the target its no stopping thts where the problem is
     
  11. CHAMP

    CHAMP Big Dog

    A coon hound could be trained to retrieve birds, but I wouldn't buy one for it.

    Sent from my microwave using Tapatalk
     
  12. TDK

    TDK CH Dog Staff Member

    I will never understand why some folks keep trying to reinvent the bulldog instead of acquiring a dog bred for and more suited for other endeavors. Makes so little sense. It's also a choice which can be dangerous.
     
  13. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    The skill sets of working dogs are similar. The Shephards and Malinois have immense prey drive for herding sheep over large areas, They have defensive drives to protect the herds that can be built upon for service/protection work.


    Bulldogs have that same prey drive and more in some cases. They have some defensive drive as well. It is easier to start a dog on his chain than anywhere else because that is his spot. His first instinct is to defend what is his. Couple that with extreme athleticism and the bulldog is a fine candidate for protection/service work.


    The bulldog purist do not want to see the dogs used that way just as I am sure the herders and drovers of yesteryear thought the same way, a waste of a good dog.


    The purist 1st reaction is the creation of man eaters and man biters. And at the same time the purist is not going to go get a dog from someone who works the dogs in protection. In it a natural break in their lineage.


    The problem/fear of extreme prey drive coupled with being taught to bite more than likely happened to the herding community a hundred or more years ago. "How can he work my sheep if he wants to bite people?" An unfounded fear because they were never to be mixed and matched.


    German Shephards and Malinois are automatically perceived to be 'police dogs' now, stereotypical I know, but evidence of hos things change. A long time ago they were herding dogs but the things that made them great herders were redirected to make them great working dogs.


    Bulldogs no different. The capabilities are there they just must be redirected, same as those herders.


    Will it take away from the 'bulldog being a bulldog', the answer is "Yes". Is it a way to keep them going in a productive environment. "yes, as well".


    Is there a soldier out there somewhere who has kissed one of those herding dogs right in the mouth when he detected a roadside bomb? Absolutely. Does he appreciate the people who had the insight to see that talent and ability could be redirected to save lives. I think so.


    Are there pit bulls out there competing and winning in these venues? Yep. Doing rather well I will say. Are these people the rolling or matching these protection dogs to 'keep it real' and take the chance of being bit thru confusion? Nope. Again, the separation is a natural break in their lineage.


    I see more and more bulldogs, American Bulldogs, AmStaffs, bules, etc.. ending up in these venues. In time the number of game bred dogs will increase as well.


    Maybe in hundred years or so the bulldog will be seen as a "Police Dog" like those herding dogs. S
     
  14. treezpitz

    treezpitz CH Dog Staff Member

    "Maybe in hundred years or so the bulldog will be seen as a "Police Dog" like those herding dogs. S"



    Man, I sure hope not!
     
  15. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Personally, I do not see it happening. But I bet it was an old herder guy laughing and saying, "those dogs will not hurt a gentle little lamb. Catch bad guys! What a crock!"


    Along the way there was a guy who saw those abilities and redirected them. A certain number of people are seeing it in the bulldogs and doing very well with them.


    I'm not the biggest fan of it but I really do not see anything wrong with it either. I am more of a 'to each his own' kind of person.


    S
     
  16. nittpittx

    nittpittx Pup

    A open mind is ones greatest opportunity. A lack of knowing what day and time we all live in shows inability to a just to that thing call "New World Order". Do we limit are keep living breathing this in our box because of our own limitations. Do we dare to imagine the unimaginable. What our fore fathers said was a limit we now know was their limits. Times change extinction happens if functionality doesn't.
     
  17. mlmaas

    mlmaas Top Dog

    Bringing an old post up, but I don't see the point. If you want to do it do it, but just as for years dog men have bred the perfect bulldog, the dutch have been breeding the perfect dog for protection work. There are many registries, if you do your research youll learn that KNPV lineage dogs (dutch shepherds/malinois) have had all sorts of dogs crossed into them. There is even bulldog blood running through some of their veins.
     
  18. CajunBoulette

    CajunBoulette CH Dog

    Well as you said why try to redirect generation upon generation of purpose directed breeding. I do feel that the APBT could probably adapt to and excelle at any working activity besides herding for obvious reasons, but the question is why??? You don't buy a Cadillac to drag race, and you don't buy a Bugatti to take on a Sunday drive..... Now they make a few Cadillac's that have some power that could prob beat a few cars at the track, and I'd drive a Bugatti on a Sunday, but definitely not as slow as I would the caddy! Guess the point I'm making is as you stated, use a working dog bred for the purpose that you have in mind to work.... No need in trying to change what's been ingrained over hundreds of years of purpose breeding.
     
  19. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    No dogs originated as protection/sport/service dogs. The Malinois and Shepherds were herding dogs. Their skill set was re-directed to man work. Now over time with the fading of farm life around the workd the dogs are now known more so for their re-direction than their original job/purpose.


    Bulldogs no different. The AB that was bred and selected for hog hunting has crossed over very well into the sport and protection work arena.


    I have seen several pit bulls who have exceeded very well in that area. YOUTUBE has hundreds of pit dogs doing obedience and bite work. They are crossing over very well as well.


    Crossing the dogs back and forth is seldom done.
     
  20. TROTLINE

    TROTLINE Top Dog

    I was fix'n to train retrievers to bring A down deer to the truck! What do you think?
     

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