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Self Propelled Treadmill vs 400$ carpet mill?

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by Michael., Sep 28, 2016.

  1. treezpitz

    treezpitz CH Dog Staff Member

    Slats are a lot more common. Obviously CrazyHorse knows something that most people don't know. Sounds like a way to market your knowledge and help others out at the same time. Maybe a book? People would be willing to buy it if what you know works for them. They'd save plenty coin just buying/building carpet mill instead of slats. Just a thought.
     
    CrazyHorse likes this.
  2. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    I'd like to see that study. Lol
     
  3. blueboy

    blueboy Big Dog

    X2 on wanting to see that study. A mill is just a tool that make it easier for the conditioner. Mills are nothing without an eager dog willing to work them. Plenty of dogs won't run em and have been brought in as good a condition as dogs which did. Proving a mill isn't essential to get a dog in good condition.
     
  4. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua Premium Member

    Its not about the tool/equipment per say in itself but about the CONDITIONER who can bring out 100% of his/hers dogs full maximum working potential on ANY GIVEN type of equipment.
     
    reddirt redneck likes this.
  5. CrazyHorse

    CrazyHorse Big Dog

    Good idea! Resistance training always outperforms aerobic training every time!
     
  6. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    I am a carpet mill guy myself. I prefer the carpet mill over the slat mill. But the difference with leaning toward the carpet mills mentioned in the Bob Stevens article is that there are very few using a carpet mill today, a true carpet mill.

    The mills I was turned onto in the 70's were carpet with a heavy jute backing, sliding on sanded plywood, being pulled over stationery pieces of PVC pipe. It was a strain for the dog to make a few minutes on these mills. Those are the ones I cut my teeth on as a kid. Over time people wanted the best of both worlds. People wanted the biggest advantage of the slat mill and that is run time. In order to get run time on those carpet mills they had to be free-ed up. People went to lighter carpets, plastic sliding surfaces and then end rollers with bearings and such. The carpet mill evolved into the belt mill. The belt mill gives a lot of the carpet mill advantages but also gives some run time as well and that is important.

    Hanging a dog on a hard turning carpet mill and getting that anaerobic workout for 3-4-5 minutes a clip will maul another for 3-4-5-6 minutes and then gas. Back in the day those hard turning carpet mills were coupled with long runs and slow walks. So it was not the mill but the combination of the mill and another means.

    Hanging that same dog on a truly free turning slat mill for long periods of time and then using nothing else will more than likely get one that can breathe underwater but will get drug like a rag doll. Couple that slat mill with some resistance work and then there is twice as much dog to deal with at show time.

    The carpet mill I build allows the dog to drive the belt as he turns the mill. His front end gets a good workout from pulling the belt with every step. The back end gets a workout by having to drive the carpet behind him. The advantage to this mill is that it has a plastic sliding surface, two end rollers on high speed race bearings and a carpet that is not all that thick. The dog can really open up and run the mill. His sprint does not look like he is lugging a tire behind him like the old mills. His legs actually drive the belt and his stride looks very natural but not like the really free slat mill where his body looks like it is still and his legs are rolling from the hips down.

    The best deal is the combination of maybe not the two mills but a combination of the two principles behind the mills.

    And if a person can get to a spot where he can safely (dog not running off or killing the neighbor's shit) throw a ball and the dog continually sprint after it time after time. I mean all out go get'em sprints time and time again. Those hard sprints on the ground, propelling his own weight, muscle output changing with every step, with all he has, that will simply kick the shit out of any mill out there. Regardless of mill preference.

    S
     
  7. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    And the kidney damage on a carpet mill is nothing more than a myth, an old wives tale.

    Take a dog and do not let him empty, dehydrate him and fill him up on hard to digest proteins and then hang him on any piece of equipment to exertion....and there will be health issues.

    Take that same dog, ensure he is empty. Keep him adequately hydrated and feed him with some common sense and he can run a carpet mill for long periods of time, multiple times per day/per week with no health issues.

    S
     
  8. GK1

    GK1 Big Dog

    There are technically well designed and crafted mills out there, and I’m sure they can add value to a conditioning program, free spinning slat or resistance carpet. Either method, secured in a mill the dog just looks partially restricted from natural movement. I see potential orthopedic injuries developing with too much time on a mill at the expense of developing the entire running capacity of the dog. To me the mill could substitute for what I define as the middle distance interval: 3-5 miles, 7:30-6 minutes per mile pace. Dog is trotting. Good cardio work, but incomplete on its own IMO. Dog should be allowed to open up periodically with full, prey driven sprints.
     
  9. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    That is very true. The problem is what they go after and keeping them in an controlled environment. We had a male once that we were doing sprints on the back side of the farm. He was all into it and all was well. Right up until a squirrel went by. The hunt was on. We chased as he chased. He ran up onto a fence with goats. Long story short we had to buy a goat.

    Space and a secured area are hard to come by for most. If it is available it should be used.

    S
     
  10. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua Premium Member

    Are you saying a dog cant open up and sprint on a decent free turning mill?
     
  11. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Anytime the dog's feet are off the ground it is not natural. Some dogs do hunker down and go all out and get good leg extension and show full range of motion. But so many of them hit that stride and it is almost like the body is stationery and four pegs are pivoting up under them.

    I have an older Gambler mill still going strong. Back when they were G-Force mills. I have a couple that go all out and appear to get full range of motion and sprint. I have others who when going all out look like just their legs are moving, not driving with their bodies.

    And then that rolls into how one uses the mills. I like all out sprints. I sprint them in sets. Even the carpet mill I am looking for the explosion from each burst not so much the time on the mill or the length of the sprint. I would rather get 10 short yet all out sprints over a hard sprint over any length of time.

    He can sprint all out but after the mill is up and going he is no longer driving it so it is not as efficient in time vs. load. The carpet mill gets little better but if it places more emphasis on load, then the time will decrease.

    It is a lot more art than science.

    S
     
  12. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua Premium Member

    Like I said before in my other posts its not so much the equipment as it is the CONDITIONER.
     
  13. GK1

    GK1 Big Dog

    @Saiyagin - yes.
    Observe the spines, hips and shoulders of the camel jockeys' hounds vs the pit bull's.

    Trotting

    Sprinting
     
  14. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member




    This is just a video on you tube. I know nothing about these mills, these dogs or these people. Just using it as an example.

    The dog on the right is going all out but it is a lugging run. He looks like he is pulling a tire. If he were on the ground I would bet a lot of money that would not be his natural stride or sprint technique, especially if he were chasing something in prey drive.

    The dog on the left starts out with more of a sprint but soon fades into a stride. He is giving a lot of effort but it is not all that efficient. That dog would fare much better if he did three or four sprints like he did the first ten seconds or so. Ramp him up and ramp him down and not let him find that stride he has around 30 seconds.

    I am not a fan of the 3/4 speed, or even 1/2 speed runs over long periods of time. It is a myth that these dogs pace themselves or conserve energy intentionally. If two guys are arm wrestling and a guy lets up to rest he will lose and even get his arm slammed. If he stops trying to win, he still has to hold the other guy up to keep from losing til he explodes again trying to win. Dogs the same. When they are not in a flurry they are still exerting energy and every muscle in their body is being used.

    That maybe is the best benefit from the mills, either of them, the dogs learn to work while tensed and work thru being tensed.

    Another test is to give a dog a good rubdown with is feet on the ground. Then place him up on the mill, or up on a table. Give the same rub down. There is a difference in muscle tone off the ground as it it simply not normal for a dog to be off the ground.

    S
     
    corvettedex and Box Bulldog like this.
  15. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member



    This dog is going all out. He is hunkered down and giving it his all. A dog that can be worked up to 10 sprints of 15-20 seconds in length like this video. Walked out and then another set of ten. Three to four sets of these sprints and that dog will be hard to handle.

    Just a video I liked. I know nothing about the dog or the person or the mill.

    S
     
    corvettedex and reddirt redneck like this.
  16. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua Premium Member

    What does those vids prove?..........It all depends on each INDIVIDUAL DOG and each INDIVIDUAL EQUIPMENT being used.
     
  17. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua Premium Member

    I will be in chat so if you want a response go to chat if not I wont respond on the board.
    Its hard to tell from the front angle but that seems like a pretty high incline, plus that Benny Hill music makes it funny LOL.
     
  18. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    I did not have the sound up. I missed that.
    The angle is steep but that is just one more thing that has to be factored in by the conditioner.

    And I most definitely agree with your statement that it is the conditioner. It is always the conditioner.

    Conditioning a dog is a lot more art than science. The conditioner has to recognize the difference in methods of training, then recognize what works best for that dog, then decide how much and how long. One can be off in a couple of these and still have a dog in pretty good condition. But to be in truly top condition, world class, each one has to be hit right on the head, not only every day but on every exercise.

    Ozzy Stevens was a top conditioner in his day. Maybe his best ability was his eye to say either, "That's enough" or "Another minute or so". He applied what the dog needed on that particular time on that particular day on that particular exercise. That changes from carpet mill to slat mill but it will also change between two slat mills or two carpet mills. Very few of them are the same and the conditioner must not only see the difference in the equipment but the effects it has on that individual dog, in real time, on the spot.

    Yes, it is always the conditioner.

    S
     
  19. DISCOIII

    DISCOIII Premium Member Premium Member

    I seen Ozzy work two dogs at the same time with a flirt pole sitting on a high chair it was a sight to see !
     

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