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School

Discussion in 'Training & Behavior' started by Kahlilrobinson, Feb 21, 2017.

  1. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    The end goal. Winning.

    Not that I would suggest it, nor have I tried but your suggestion of sucking on the nut sack prior to....
    I do not see the advantage nor the point but if a guy tried it and won, and then tried it and won again and then he had a number of wins tallied it will be hard pressed to convince him otherwise.

    Maybe the explanation is the dog liked it and is looking forward to the next one, that I do not know.

    Using a muzzle in combination without using a muzzle is very effective. Very effective because in multiple uses the results were multiple wins.

    At what percent one compliments the other is up to the individual as it can get subjective.

    Once the process starts to pile up wins then the process is effective, very effective, and if using a schooling session with a muzzle is a part of the process, it too is deemed effective, very effective.

    S
     
  2. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    Once again if the end goal is winning one could claim sucking on his dogs nut sack is very effective if the dog wins. LMAOROTF

    The reason you dont see the advantage of sucking ones nut sack is because you have NEVER TRIED IT. LOL One could do it and win and do it again and win consistently....My point is its not because one is using a muzzle for the reason one to believe his dog is winning consistently the same way one wont believe a dog is winning because one is sucking on his nut sack. LMAO

    Yes the dog could have liked and looked forward to the next one IF THAT IS WHAT YOU TRULY BELIEVE but that does NOT MAKE IT EFFECTIVE or in your case VERY EFFECTIVE........exactly my point "YOU DONT KNOW". LMAO

    Using a muzzle in combination without using a muzzle, now this is the reasoning of one having ones cake and eating it too. LMAO.....You cant combined a technique and claim that its effective, you must first prove that technique on its own is effective first before you judge the combination of both techniques combined....If not once again one could say sucking on ones nut sack combined with STEROIDS is very effective. LMAO....you cant hope one technique will carry the other by combining them to prove the less effective techniques effectiveness. LOL

    NO its not subjective when you judge a technique on its own and not combined/complimented with another.

    There are so many variables to winning, claiming a muzzle is very effective and the reason for your dog winning is absurd....The term VERY EFFECTIVE is over 80%.

    Let me end it with this, there have been some dog men that tried the muzzle technique and didnt care for it because they felt is was NOT effective so they never utilized it in there program BUT I have never heard in my life a dog man saying that schooling one without a muzzle is not effective. Why???? because schooling one without a muzzle is the most (very) effective bonafide tried and true method and it cannot be done any other way completely like when using a muzzle...You see I am not saying it cant help to some DEGREE in certain rare situations, what I am saying is its not VERY EFFECTIVE like you want to believe or claim as that was my whole point.
     
  3. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    If running a dog on a mill or flirting a dog then schooling/rolling him is effective, or very effective then doing the same with a muzzle is the same.

    All three leave a dog tired. All three will limit the amount of time from release to I have seen what I want to see. It a game check to see how he performs when he is tired and in the latter part of schooling to let him see fatigue/frustration and him learn to respond accordingly.

    If using the mill/flirt pole for exertion prior to then the muzzle can be used the same.

    Deeming it effective or very effective is subjective, just like placing value on nut sack sucking.

    If my objective is for the dog to be tired at a certain point and using the muzzle gets us to that point, then it is indeed effective. No different than a mill or a flirt pole.

    If 99.9% of dog men do not use a method it does not mean it can't be very effective for the .01% that do. It only means that it is not popular or not the most preferred, it has nothing do with effectiveness.

    S
     
  4. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    NO its not the same....a flirt pole and a mill are conditioning tools, while schooling/rolling are not used to condition a dog, UNLESS you are schooling/rolling your dogs while in a keep???. LMAO

    Utilizing the method of making one tired before letting him engage with a opponent is more like a SUBSTITUTE GAME TEST which is done on only very rare occasions when one cannot do the ACTUAL GAME TEST WITHOUT MAKING ONE TIRED BEFORE HAND.....I use the term "MORE LIKE", because it is not exactly like an ACTUAL GAME TEST because its not as effective.

    Utilizing a flirt pole or mill or a muzzle to tire one out before a Game test are similar in effectiveness.

    The word VERY EFFECTIVE means over 80% its not subjective where the word VERY EFFECTIVE can mean 20% or 40% it means over 80% Certain words used describe the LEVELS of effectiveness.

    If your objective was to make one fatigued and tired with a muzzle you wouldnt have to take the muzzle off afterwards....another point is if you are going to let one engage another dog ANY WAYS why flirt pole or use a muzzle first??? If one is going to let a dog engage another dog they should do it from the start because that is the MOST EFFECTIVE TRIED AND TRUE METHOD that dog man have been doing it to GAME TEST there dogs.....The other way around is not as effective and only used on certain rare circumstances when one cant do a GAME TEST the normal tried and true way.

    I done told you there have been a decent number of dogmen who have tried using muzzles and majority of them deemed it not to be as effective as if one is game testing there dogs without a muzzle...To label something very effective you must have a standard tried and true method to compare it too, if not anything can be labeled as effective....It has nothing to do with popularity like you keep on repeating it has everything to do with what is the TRUTH of what makes it effective or VERY EFFECTIVE in your case.

    If a vaccine only works on 1% of the total population and NOT the rest of the 99% that means its not very effective, it has nothing to do with popularity but hard core facts/proof that its just not effective.......but if you make an excuse and say well if you combine this 1% vaccine with 5 other vaccines it becomes effective does that mean that the 1% vaccine is effective??? FUCK NO. LMAO......instead one gets rid of that 1% vaccine and tries to find a more effective vaccine. LMAO....a vaccine that is very effective would have over a 80% effectiveness ratio....you do know there are levels and degrees of effectiveness right? LOL.......when another method comes along that is more effective then the standard tried and true method that is when the STANDARD CHANGES. Until then the STANDARD REMAINS THE SAME.
     
  5. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Being I work in the pharmaceutical industry I am glad you made the analogy.

    Ask the 1% person whose life was saved with that vaccine about its effectiveness. Effective and very effective most definitely apply.

    And at the same time it is a horrible analogy because a vaccine or drug can have a 99% rate of effectiveness and be pulled with an adverse reaction to 1% of it patients.

    So the amount of people choosing to use a certain method of anything has little to nothing to do with grading it as not effective, effective, or very effective.

    S
     
  6. .

    Two kids grow up in the same neigborhood, one got in four fights in two years, and did well, even against older guys. The other kid got himself into arround five good ones, against rough boys. The second kid joined the wrestling team, and learned to fight without his fists, but with his body and lungs. The first kid had a mean right hook. Who do you think won when they met up at the local boxing gym?
     
    Box Bulldog likes this.
  7. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    Ask the 1% if they know for a fact it was the vaccine that was effective???.....1% is considered NOT EFFECTIVE by scientific standards....Big Pharma companies standards is they dont give a fuck just as long as they are making money. LMAO

    Its not a horrible analogy...A drug with a 1% side effect is deemed not effective but we are talking about vaccine or a drug that is within the standard of adverse reactions........its like saying this drug will cure your herpes but give you prostate/uterus cancer. LMAO....Or this drug will cure your insomnia but make one go into a coma. LMAOROTF

    Choosing a certain method, NO......choosing a effective method, YES as there are many degrees and levels of effectiveness.
     
  8. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    If a train is travelling at 100mph over a distance of 100miles and the other train is travelling at 70mph over that same distance what is the time difference between the two? LMAO
     
    promoe likes this.
  9. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    So lets say you or a loved one are the 1% and the vaccine or drug will save a life you would turn it down because of the scientific standard of being above 80% equates to effectiveness?

    Like I said when it works it is effective. There are no need for comparisons to a standard or checking to see if it aligns with a tried and true method.

    When a person chooses any method to do anything and it works, that method is then effective.

    I can effectively dig a hole with a hammer. It may be easier and more practical to use a shovel. And most people would choose to use a shovel. Regardless of their opinion, I can still effectively dig a hole with a hammer.

    S
     
  10. I expected an answer according to the scenario.. Your constantly choosing things out of what you read in stead of being humble and acceoting that you dont know it all. Im sure there are otheres whove viewed this and held their toungues for w.e reason. But your here blurting opposing responses without adressing every element of the statement if you feel i am ignorant to your truth, why feed into my ignorance? Mabey your unsure.
     
  11. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    Out of 8 billion people in the world the chances of my loved one being in the 1% is less than 0.01 percent. LOL Even at that there is no scientific data that prove the 1% were cured from the actual vaccine itself and not because those 1% had a strong immune system. So that 1% will be greatly questioned about its effectiveness as basically being ineffective.

    Once again like I said anyone can claim anything to be effective , it does not mean that particular method was effective.....if I sell the masses SNAKE OIL and just 2 people out of 8 billion which is like 000000.2 percent does that mean its effective and was it actually effective due to the snake oil or other factors/variables involved? LMAO

    If that method works on its own and compared to a standard then it can be deemed effective....if you are claiming it to be effective as part of many many variables then that effectivness does not mean SHIT. GET IT???? GOT IT????....if not AHHH SHIT. LMAO

    I could effectively dig a hole with a teaspoon and call it effective.....but effective compared to what??? Compared to a shovel, a spoon is not effective at all, in fact one will DISCARD the spoon and use the shovel as the new standard method of digging a hole. LMAO
     
  12. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    How do you know I am constantly choosing things out of what I have read?....Others have held there tongues because they know I know what the fuck I am talking about. LOL......I am addressing every element accordingly. LOL......I am not feeding your ignorance but rather showing you the truth in my own sarcastic way, as you are the one that is unsure.
     
  13. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    this is the part where you consistently miss the point or simply refuse to see the point.

    Effectiveness is also determined by who is using said method. If a hole needs to be dug, what is more effective, you with a spoon or a six month infant with a shovel?

    Same shovel. Same spoon.

    S



     
  14. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    No once again it is you who is missing the point or refusing to see it......When comparing the effectiveness of a certain method the person using it has to be within equal levels or else you cant compare the true effectiveness of said method......So basically its suppose to go like this > 2 men of equal weight and height and physicality but one uses a shovel and one uses a spoon to dig a whole which of the two methods is more effective the spoon or the shovel??? The answer that every single SANE person in the world that all would agree on is that the SHOVEL is more effective.

    A shovel and a spoon are not the same that is so RIDICULOUS, once again your logic has failed you slim LMAO
     
  15. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Again, I will follow your thought process.

    We are still talking about not using a muzzle and its effectiveness. All dog men are the same in experience, preference and thought process. They all live in the same areas and are enhanced or restrained by their geographic locations. They all do the same things with the same thought process. (equal weight, equal height and equal physicality with the spoon and the shovel).

    When that happens drop me a line and we will then have some factual data to determine effectiveness. You keep referencing the standard. A standard has to be documented. That documentation then has to be proofed and validated. Once validated it becomes procedure. From that procedure there is a standard.

    None of this has never happened in the dogs nor will it ever happen. You mention 'a number of dog men have tried it and did not find it effective'. I know 'a number of dog men who have tried it and found it to be very effective'. So from there it is a push. Without throwing names I listed a dog who was bought later in life, schooled with and without a muzzle four times and won two matches in a year, actually 11 months, but close enough.

    In this entire thread that is the only real life data point offered. The rest is your subjective opinion and my subjective opinion. And in the grand scheme of the dog kingdom, neither carry the weight of two squirts of piss.

    Since the methods to success (effectiveness) have never been documented, proofed or validated to create an actual standard you are basing the entire premise of your subjective opinion on institutional knowledge, just like I have done. Institutional knowledge is simply, 'that's the way it has always been done', it is not written down or procedurallized in order to develop a standard, the standard in which to compare. Institutional knowledge quickly fades to 'monkey see-monkey do'. Which just about tosses science based discussion out the window.

    Your opinion is simply you have talked with a 'number' of dog men and of that number it did not work well. Mine is the opposite, in my experience it has been very effective to accomplish said goals. Introduce fatigue as he is doing something he really wants to do. Limit damage. Speed recovery. More schooling sessions over the same amount of time when compared to with or without the muzzle.

    In the end we have argued/debated opinions. Which again, in the grand scheme of things is a huge waste of time and effort. But at the same time I appreciate your time over the weekend. My wife is out of town doing post-op help with her sister and I am sitting with my mother in law who has both dementia and alzheimers. It has helped me pass the time.

    We could have both channeled our energies to real problems in the world like, why hot dog rolls come in 8 and 12 packs, yet the wieners are in 10 packs? Something that will carry real merit going forward.

    S
     
    treezpitz, AGK, DISCOIII and 2 others like this.
  16. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    Lmao@ that last paragraph. Best thing I've read all week.
     
    promoe and treezpitz like this.
  17. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    No, its seems you are only following your thought process since you cant see the truth. LOL

    No, not all thought process are the same as a spoon and a shovel are totally different. you said a spoon could be effective at digging a hole, compared to what? I could say my cock is effective at digging holes in the ground but does that mean its really effective? How does one actually judge the effectiveness of a method?

    LMAO@standard has to be documented.....The standard way to school a dog that EVERY SINGLE dog man in the world knows is schooling one WITHOUT A MUZZLE, that is just FACTS/TRUTH from actual DOCUMENTATIONS, hence why it becomes the STANDARD practice......all that other crap about proof , validation and procedure come from the technical business aspect of something LEGAL, and not some thing that is DEEMED ILLEGAL. LMAO

    Like I said fool , official legal documentation will never happen in something deemed ILLEGAL, that is just fucking common sense. LMAO....Once again if you know 10 dogmen and I know 10 dogmen but yet through out the history of the breed less then 1% utilize that method then that means its not effective as you claim or else more dog men will be doing it and its not about popularity , its about the effectiveness as most dog men dont use it because its not as effective as schooling one without a muzzle....LMAO@without listing names says the person who majority of the time list dogs names and pedigrees etc.......Again bringing up heroic stories of one WINNING to justify why schooling with muzzles is very effective is moot.

    NO, once again you are wrong....Mine is not coming from opinion but from that FACT that every single dog man world wide through out the history of the breed all know that the STANDARD PRACTICE of schooling a dog is WITHOUT A MUZZLE because thats the way its been always done because again ITS THE MOST EFFECTIVE...........Its no different then saying 00000.1% of dog men tie up there dogs back legs when schooling as opposed to the other 99.9999999 that dont tie up there dogs back legs when schooling because that is the STANDARD........You see slim there is a way or standard to everything , just because its not legalized with official documents does not mean it dont exist as there is a standard for everything one does in life including in these dogs and even in illegal activities.....There are some people who are idiots that follow the monkey see monkey do but those that are smart and can think for themselves first test the standard and follow it until something better comes along to replace the standard.

    Once again you have argued opinions I am arguing facts/truth.....its only a waste of time for those arguing from opinions and not facts/truth....I am glad I could help you pass the time as taking care of a disabled elderly is hard work.

    I dont have to worry about that as what ever I dont eat goes to the dogs. LMAO....but I rather channel my energies into more productive things like stocking up my van with more candy. LMAOROTF
     
  18. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    3 apples.
    Lol
     
    Kahlilrobinson likes this.
  19. c_note

    c_note CH Dog

    The better puncher. The wrestler may have better wind, but does that help his punching prowess?? Wrestling does not prepare you for boxing or being struck. Most wrestlers get a major shock when they eat that 3-4-5 piece combo ol boy served em...
     
  20. U missed part of the story. The wrestler has been in the same amount of fist fights as the right handed kid.. They both have swinging experience. But the wrestler has experience on the ground and in more places
     

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