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sbt or ebt?

Discussion in 'Staffordshire Bull Terriers' started by gypsyboy, Jul 12, 2012.

  1. gypsyboy

    gypsyboy Big Dog

    In your opinion what breed has been ruined more by the show wring?
     
  2. sunbeam

    sunbeam CH Dog

    the stafford, the bull terrier never was a pit dog to start with , it was always just bred to look at.
     
  3. gypsyboy

    gypsyboy Big Dog

    But didn't mr hinks game test his dogs and always aim for a refined pit dog?
     
  4. Mickeyg

    Mickeyg Top Dog

    What about the old badger dogs I know that don't
    Make them pit dogs but but surly they wasn't jus breeding for looks then and I thought hinks tested his as well... The last fee months I have seen some shocking staffs around my way tiny lil puggy things but there's still plenty of fokes breeding nice ins to type The best ebt I have see. Or the ingels bull terrier
     
  5. gypsyboy

    gypsyboy Big Dog

    Also I've found on the web a breed called gull terr that claims to be the dogs that hinks bred and were exported to india apparantly. These are on par with a pitbull?
     
  6. doginhold

    doginhold Top Dog

    Hinks never game tested any of his dogs!
     
  7. yerichoffpits

    yerichoffpits Big Dog

    i wans nown a bull terrier who was game, ones he kild a male goat. the bull took off the horns off that animal, ill think i have a pick some where when ill find him i will post him.
    he was a sharp dude
     
  8. Jdll13

    Jdll13 Big Dog

    I have seen pictures of the old hinks bull terriers and the gull terrs I've seen on the internet just seem way bigger. Those dogs are giant beasts.
     
  9. ivebeen

    ivebeen Premium Member Premium Member

    killed a goat? that is game?
     
  10. bulldogkennel

    bulldogkennel Banned

    Both of these breeds have been ruined: both were morphologically changed, and also their character has been overlooked.

    Now I wonder why is considered only the "gameness" to determine if a dog breed is still a "good" one or not ...

    A breed - or even a strain - in order to be decent should not merely be game.

    Every BREEDER knows that a dog must be carefully assessed to know what are its strengths and weaknesses.

    For a "sportsman" counts only the final result regardless if the dog is pure or cross... or if he transmits its genetic qualities to the offspring.

    It 'clear that the sportmens, very rarely are also good breeders ... and it is also evident that very rarely they can assess a dog as a whole.

    Each topic can not be alone on the "game" of various breeds, because this character ( the game) can also be evaluated by a child if he knows how to see it.

    Select a strain (or breed) is, however, a "game" for experts because they not only know how test a dog for his gameness (that we know to be the easiest thing to do and not the only one that counts in the choice of a stud dog or brood bitch)... but they must also know how to keep ALIVE the best dogs (and the best dogs in general and not just in one character), multiply their dogs by giving a long life as a strain.

    So friends, the SBT and BT have been ruined not only because they were no longer valued for their gameness, (also because neither of the two breeds was actually view really and widely for their game in the last 100 years) but mainly because modern breeders no longer know how to select healthy, fertile and rough dogs...

    Not all people are only interested in the gameness of their dogs, many more are interested in a breed for all it represent.

    In fact it is they who never leave the breed they have chosen, while the "sportmen" change from one line to another, from to breed to another and from a "Champion" to a another.

    A classic example is the story of the Irish Staffordshire, been left to its fate as soon as a better breed is arrived in his country ...

    Best Regards
     
  11. Nogz

    Nogz Pup

    I think its not that easy to understand why.
    Gametesting (dog on dog) is the heaviest way to test a dog's courage, drive, stamina, and physical and mental stability. Just because it's the highest form of sports for these type of dogs.
    I've spoken to men who are many years in working dogs, its a pure fact that dogs who have proven themselfs, are the most stabile/steady in behavior. This is common logic. There is simply no other test than a gemetest who proves a dog is mentally (!!) and physically better.
    Its a fact that when bred, by example 3 generations, staffs without any kind of gametesting, the last generations will be weaker mentally. Just because you cannot make a good selection on whats the 'better dog'.

    So I think you made up a nice post by saying:
    "So friends, the SBT and BT have been ruined not only because they were no longer valued for their gameness, (also because neither of the two breeds was actually view really and widely for their game in the last 100 years) but mainly because modern breeders no longer know how to select healthy, fertile and rough dogs..."
    So if your Bulldogkennel is build down from some dogs like Anteros (not sure if he was really game, believe he was only tested) and you are 3 generations untested stock further, you are talking biggest crap by saying they are top ability, or gamebred dogs.

     
  12. Nogz

    Nogz Pup

    Edit:
    I think its not that easy to understand why.
    =
    I think its not that HARD to understand why.
     
  13. bulldogkennel

    bulldogkennel Banned

    Hello Nogz, I'm sorry if I did not express myself well in English ... in Italian it would be easy to understand my thought!! :)

    What I mean is that not all breeds have to be seen for the gameness...and also the same concept of gameness is so subjective that 100 different people will describe it in 100 different ways!

    As a breeder, I select my Staffordshire (which are not game dogs but ... Staffordshire) evaluating the future stud dogs and brood bitches not only for their game, but for a variety of parameters: their hardiness, fertility, the ability to reproduce naturally, their bloodline, their physical characteristics, disease resistance, etc.

    Then, having been bred for many years gamefowl and flying pigeons, I know with absolute certainty that the game and the working quality of a pure strain remain, more or less the same, even if the animals are no longer "seen", provided that the strain is kept pure, in close consanguinity and, very important, never cross with bad blood.

    What you lose is the percentage of "champions" (but not more than 30 or 40% less than the original line) but the average of the population born from the starin will have the same characteristics as the original strain.

    The gameness and work quality are transmitted, from one generation to another, by genetics like any other character: if the gameness is in the line, and if you breed in that line remain closed, the game itself will never get lost.

    The difference is, without a selection focused on gameness, is only the percentage of "ace" born from the strain!

    Ok, a sportmen wants, for example, make up to 100 puppies a year and then select 1 super ... instead a breeder wants to make the 100 pups, and then have 80 onest dogs because, for a breeder, counts the average quality of its strain, and not produce an "ace" and 99 Curs ...

    This, I repeat, does not mean that dogs testing is useless, only that their evaluation should be very broad and not confined to a single point.

    For example, our strain is based on a bitch (Ceracchi's Orca) very gameness on badger. His game is more than enough for my standards, although for other breeders (or sportmen) a dog that works the badger is "nothing" compared to one seen in the pit... every person like his cup of tea!

    Best Regards
     
  14. thefonz

    thefonz Pup

    I remember one good ebt called Saxon from the NW,he rocked a few yank dogs back in 86:D
     
  15. jt ellison

    jt ellison Big Dog

    Its the same ol same ol incorrect statements about dogs from the past perhaps i might once again speak the truth concerning the Saxon dog , he was sired by Jacadandy of Ormandy and like a lot of English Bulls he was infertile and deaf , though i did at one time see pedigrees with him in them , howevor the dog never sired a pup . I had him on my yard when his owner the lateJ
     
  16. jt ellison

    jt ellison Big Dog

    apologies ..the late John Gardener who owned him was having problems , the dog was fight crazy but never saw a Pitbull , he would fight all day but would not scratch even when on a down dog , i saw him many times over the years
     
  17. Joe Black

    Joe Black Banned

    I have to agree, proven dogs are more stabile/steady in there behavior
    Yes you can talk to many men who are many years active with sportingdogs but you yourself have bred from untested stock and had more untested litters in the last 3 years.
    So imo you are just the same as any KC breeder.
    Your dogs may be in better health as the general population but as soon you start to turn away from real working stock, you end up with just normal SBT.
    They may have a higher prey drive and stamina but gameness is something you wil lose.
     
  18. thefonz

    thefonz Pup

    bloody hell, well it just goes to show you u cant trust wot anyone says,not that it came off john R.I.P. seen the dog back then a few times as john stayed across the road back then,i was told the stories about saxon by someone who was around john at the time,also got told the dog met its maker on a trip to wales.atb
     
  19. Dogman_M

    Dogman_M Pup

    All breeds will irrevocable be shells of their "used to be", when breeding is only focused on looks.
    It has happened to just about every breed you can mention. Either they're bred to big and bulky like some Pitbull/amstaff lines, or they're wonky like german shepards some even breed them small stocky AND wonky(wtf)!?
    Actually theres a really good documentary on this subject on youtube [video=youtube;xPmKIgMoUPc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPmKIgMoUPc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPmKIgMoUPc[/video] (part 1)..

    All this being said, i like to show a picture of my SBT. he is 1yr3month and parents where irish import(im from DK).
    I'd NEVER win a "beauty"-show with this guy, not that i care in any way since he's to be used for WP and such.
    WP_000112.jpg WP_000004.jpg WP_000003.jpg WP_000107.jpg
     
  20. Nogz

    Nogz Pup

    Wtf are you talking about, lowlife pile of shit, you dont even know me. I never ever did 3 (untested) litters.
     

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