Pedigrees

How well do you trust them ? Be it written on the back of a cigarette packet or printed in bright colored font on silk. The pedigree don't make the dog, the dog makes the pedigree, obviously. How well do you trust the "old hands" who owned and sold the dogs from ireland to england back in the 80's. Do you think exaggeration would creep in just for that extra bit of uummpph?. Its always been rumored unscrupulous dog dealers from the day would take dogs off the streets in ireland and sell them with infamous kennel names here in england, if true how many prominent staffs have sketchy pedigrees in say the past 15 plus years?

 

Im not trusting the ped, I would be trusting the dogmans word instead. I have registered dogs, but I know their parents, know who they come from and the truth behind the dogs in the ped.
As for the staffs I found out that, FUCK the ped! Trust only what you see with your own eyes. To much lying the last 20-30 years about whos bred from who and so on..

 

I understand and agree with both of the last two post its what ive said for near thirty years , i remember most of the dogs sent here rom Ireland and who and were they came from and also who they were sold to when they came here . Now you have to work out who is who in the dog game and have a good memorie and learn who you can and cannot trust , there are those who will sell you anything and those who you could trust with your life . The dealers were and are well known since the first dogs came here , so you have to ask yourself and find out the true breeding of dogs before you use them . I was lucky in that i was introduced togenuine dogmen in Ireland and i pestered them for years by letter , phone and hundreds of hours sat talking about dogs from the past and was able to research the true and correct breediong to my own dogs . The ones that i couldnt then i never bred from them , i also was able to correct many of the pedigrees of dogs sent here that were not behind my own dogs , and others i simply wasnt intrested in anyway . Some of the dogmen from Ireland were less than honest but others are 100% honest they tell you like it is and the only way is to ask those who owned and judged or saw the dogs work then ask yourself would you value there opinion , it can be a hard choice but if the men your asking are honest its easy

 

I had the utmost pleasure to have conversed with the late T.L from Dublin, who in some circles was branded a dealer and peddlar who would fake pedigrees. I found him very honest and upfront every time and i even researched a pedigree or two he and i spoke of and he was spot on every time. Not that i was questioning his intelligence, more to prove a point to a few my hareem at the time. So the question still hangs with me, who can you trust, the disciples or the (fore)fathers?. Who are the story tellers and why have some of the Irish dogs that were sent over here to England branded as fakes, jealousy ? Kennel blindness? The jury is still out with me i am afraid.

 

Just wondering what Staffords sent to UK from Ireland are supposed to have fake peds...?

 

It was said that red staffords were taken from the streets and shelters and sold on as dublin red strain staffords. This has been a bone of contention online for a long long time Ricky. Way back when the Bull Terrier Times forum was all the rage, it was the late 90's when irish staffords were the line of debate on the early forums. I remember one of the first debates was that T.L stole the red commando which i now believe was preposterous. Feel free to shed any light to what i have said Ricky.

 

double post

 

The pedigrees may have been correct when they left Ireland though with some of the dogs its debatable , i remember seeing pedigrees to some of the Red staffords that had dogs in them shown twenty years before they were bred , howevor this could have been written down by those who purchased the dogs in England . I was through Seamus Mcnutt able to trace the pedigrees to my own dogs with the help of Willie Delaney and Bobby Watts and Seamus varified the pedigrees with these people . What CANNOT be denied is the dozens of litters that were bred by unscrupolous dealers out of supposed CH Phycho bitches or others that were simply Blue in colour , i myself saw bitches that were bred to Pitbulls , Bull Mastiff/Staffords crossbred Wheaten/Staffords and all provided with fake papers showing hem as being pure or in some cases with KC registrations , two dealers in the Liverpool/North Wales areas bred many litters like this and at one time he Toxteth area of Liverpool was overun with these dogs the Echo was full of advertisements for these dogs , most of todays if not all are decended from these dogs . The blame cannot be laid with the Irish dogmen who sent the dogs here but lies with those who bastardised and prostituted them for profit here in England , some of the pedigrees that ive seen were amazing , the great Irish Jack dog was a very game badger dog and a game fighting dog , his pedigree showed him as being out of Barney who in turn was out of Howdy and Evergreen Patsy with the dam of Jack being a daughter of Geronimo/Evergreen Patsy . The truth was Irish Jack was out of Barney who had no pedigree and his dam was a pure English Bull bitch owned by the brother of the owner of Barney , they NEVER put any pedigree on Irish Jack who incidently is behind many of the so called Flynn and Red bred dogs being sold today with fake KC registrations , he was howevor a very game dog . Thats why you have to keep genuine pedigrees YOURSELF then in years to come if your still in dogs and most wont be , you can at least say the breeding is genuine since you owned the dogs , its hard enough breeding dogs with Genuine pedigrees when the pedigrees are faked its impossibble

 

I don't think there was anyone still breeding good SBT in southern Ireland after the mid 1980s, all the real dogmen had APBTs by then...so after that there was very few still into SBTs...most that went to UK after that ware usually from Northern Ireland.. I did some judging at SBT shows in UK and have to agree with jt...a lot of the dogs did not look like SBTs...they most likely had some APBT in them....long muzzles .large flat ears, and very racy bodies...a lot had none of the usual features of the SBT.... as for false pedigrees being sent on dogs going over to Uk ...I don't know ...I might be able to comment on certain dogs......since the mid 1980s Iv sent 6 to the UK..all had the correct pedigree...I sent DB the "Lightfoot" bitch...AB her sister "Sally"....DG .."Rocky my Dear"(aka: Rocky Lee) and his daughter "Noodles II".... BD the dog called "Harpo" and D.McG the dog "Rockson"...I have not kept SBT since the mid 1980s.. all the above dogs I got doing deals...except "Lightfoot" who I owned before sending her over...

 

These ”true pedigree” stories are universal, just drop in on the APBT section of this site and you will see loads of topics of that type! Either someone asking for the true pedigree, or someone claiming to know the true pedigree because his uncle’s friend’s cousin knew someone. Often enough these true pedigree´s always makes those guys own dogs pedigrees look better! And often enough it is so far back they really should have other things to focus on by now.


I do not doubt that there has been some shady things going down, but I do doubt it is as common as one would get the impression by listening to all these stories. The first thing is that people need to get dogs from people they trust, people that are honest and are doing the dogs for the right reason. If you buy dogs from people that just knows what someone else told them- then you are just buying a rumor. These sellers are usually the same type that brags about some distant forefather of the pup, something so irrelevant today that it is ridiculous! Perhaps the dog does not even have that said dog in its makeup since it is all based on rumors anyway.


I also think that these problems are smaller in the hands of the genuine working community. Partly because the untypical dogs are weeded out, partly because those who work the dogs probably have more insight in what happened before. But those who just breed their dreams will keep the shady stuff going, but those dogs are dead in the eyes of the working dogmen as soon as these peddlers laid their hands on them. We have bred our stock for 3-4 generations, and on top of that we know those who did the previous mating´s. We are perfectly aware of any shady stuff lurking around in the makeup, and we calculate any potential risk before even considering a breeding.

Myself included there are several people who has had American dogs alongside their Stafford´s, and honestly we would not like anything too close to the APBT in phenotype. Any fool would see the difference between the Staffs and APBTs in a miles distance. My only interest is to preserve the old type of Stafford, and if they looked like American dogs the cause would be lost.

 

Thats it in a nutshell for myself on the rocks. Preserving old type of stafford without straying over the border trying to make them look like something they are not,APBT.

Keep them athletic.They are great dogs in there own right and should be maintained as stafford type,otherwise,just get a pit.

 

But what did SBT look like before 1930s when show people got them recognized ...= Pitbulls...as at that time they ware more or less the one breed...

 

Thats true Ricky. So should we breed paper pitbulls? As no doubt if we breed them to resemble pitbulls of today thats what they would be called!

Pre the 30'sthey were not staffs.

 

hi rickyb.
just out of curiousity, what would be your own personal definition, choice, of a well bred staff be.
has todays staff changed much since the late 70s and 80s.
hope you dont mind me asking.
atb, mike j.

 

I don't keep SBT...and would not be up to date on whats good or who has good ones...Iv only seen one I in past 10 years...that I could say was a good one...I say the fanciers in UK or Mainland Europe/Scandinavia...would know more about modern working SBTs .. I can only comment about SBT up to the end of the 1980s...

 

That is true. But the APBT´s did not look exactly like it´s modern version either in the 1930´s. According to me, the working type Staff should look a lot like the 1930´s APBT, not the 2012 fast lane APBT. I am looking for something that either Joe Mallen or JP Colby would say “that´s a fine looking dog you got there….”

 

What would be the difference in phenotype in the 1930's APBT and a modern day fast lane APBT

 

If you look at old pictures from the 1900-1940´s a lot of the dogs are extremely “Staffy” in their appearance. Many that have a keen interest in breed history would agree with the statement that something happened in the 1950´s and 1960´s. The dogs started to become bigger, leaner etc. Suddenly black started to be a very common color too, a color that was not that common before. Compare pictures between the early 1900´s and todays champions and the evolution is apparent.

In my book this change is due to refinement and breeding progress, but I have heard people claiming it was due to infusion of rare blood lines, some people have referred to the mythical Henry blood that they say was infused behind the scenes.

Anyway, the Staffs did not go through this refinement process due to obvious reasons. Therefor I personally believe that they should look like the early APBTs. When I see these big, lean dogs with APBT phenotype, that some claim to be Staff´s, my first reaction is that they have American blood infused. My second reaction is that either way, they still do not carry the Staff phenotype. So why don´t the people that owns them get an American dog instead? There is no purpose to own a Staff that looks like an APBT. To over exaggerate a bit, it is like owning a BMW that looks like a Ferrari.

 

first of, sorry for my bad english.
I dont really think you thought this through before you posted.

You say that ped's dont really matter since many dogmen imported dogs and sold them under fake names, yet you use the word "prominent staff's" about some of the descendants of these dogs. Now i ask you, by what standard do you use prominent? And does prominent in the eyes of the wider public necessarily mean true-blooded? You know how much staff's have changed over the years, they've become smaller and more stocky than in the old days - people of todays society (mainly)dont use them as working/hunting dogs anymore but as family dogs which they are very good at. This unavoidably ends up in breeding for the look AND when breeding for the look - pedigrees means absolutely n.o.t.h.i.n.g. its a fact.

But still, i would say theres some great bloodlines left out there which is pure-bred and deserves great credit. However these lines tend not to be known and recognized by the wider public - many times bacause they simply dont follow todays SBT show Standards... But i'll agree with you that every single time, its the dog that makes the ped..



Back in the day, there wasn't really anything but the pedigree and a price in the sale announces in bulldog magazines and they where trustworthy.. All you needed to know right there.. Is not like that anymore

 

We hear so much about the old timers that formed the breed council back in the thirties and forties how they set up the breed standards based on the old fighting dogs . Well thats a crock of bullshit that came right out of the backside of a Texas Longhorn Steer , not one of those people tested there dogs for gameness like they do today , they had no planned breeding programes did not inbreed or linebreed for gameness and were simply the first of the modern day dog dealers . When i first came into dogs in the mid seventies i used to go to all the shows and met many of those who are seen as legends today and not one of them had a clue about gameness . I met men who knew Mallen Boylan etc and quizzed them in my eagerness to learn , but sadly soon realized they knew nothing about gamedogs and some of the advice was ridiculous . These people would roll there dogs after the pub on a weekend then if it quit still breed from the dog or allow the dog to pull a frightened badger about and think it was game or very tenacious while at the same time talking about the M line or the B line which went back to a dog that wasnt tested anyway . The Irish dogmen in the late forties early fifties put together dogs bred from these lines and began to work them at field trials that were originally for the native Irish breeds and started to breed for gameness . This created some good working/show staffords that were the formation of the present day Blue or Red strain type staffords , it was through the dedication and honesty that all these dogs exist today , sadly when the English got them they began to apply there foolish KC understanding just like those who formed the breed in the thirties and brought in new concepts on how to breed gamedogs were dogs that quit are used for breeding or have false pedigrees , but like old Pete Sparks once said as long as you have these dogs theres always gonna be two who want to fight em , so keep scratchin