How do you test for gameness?

And how many champions and gr ch do you have onac? Why would you pay stud fees to b. bailey if you have solid bulldogs? Wouldn't you have studs by now that are good enough to be basing your yard on instead of bailey's stock? Who cares how many ch's Floyd is feeding are you feeding them no! Are you scooping their shit no! So why even bring that up. Take that trash talking elsewhere cause we don't need it. :mad:

 

Of course genes play a part of the dog but its his heart that push's him to keep going........

 

I agree...

Breeding is a crap shoot anyway. Not every pup in a litter will be game.

puregame

 

Oakley's Mom the other board has been down, but I gave you an honest answer when you asked if there was any other way to test for gameness other than fighting. When I said no, I was just telling you the truth, I nor the other members never said we condoned the activity. I didn't agree with comparing game dogs to Ted Bundy or the comparison of Ted Bundy having a child who's a killer not being likely to the comparison of breeding game dogs not likely to produce game dogs. I had to disagree because gameness isn't a psychological disorder brought on by environment; breeding for traits in animals is a lot different then an environmentally scared individual having a child and devloping mental disorder. IMO game dogs are more likely to produce game dogs then two currs bred together, so I do believe that a gamebred dog has a higher chance of being game, it only makes sense. And I believe that you can't raise a dog to be game, a dogs environment doesn't make it game, it has to do with breeding and the heart of that individual dog, not the environment it was raised in. I disagree with your 4 methods of proving gameness because I don't see a basis behind them. I don't see how you can tell if a dog is game by Environment, bloodlines, history of behavior, I see in no way how these prove a dog is/will be game, or how they have very much to do with gameness at all. I went a lot more indepth in my last response about serial killers, psych disorders, breeding and gameness, but the board went down only an hour or so after my response and I'm not going to go through all that again and explain indepth Ted Bundy's problems and breeding dogs for traits all over again.
Please understand that no one on that thread was supporting dog fighting, but we except the fact that its how the dogs were tested for gameness and the only way. The board has good people on it who are willing to answer questions and who love talking about bulldogs, I hope even though you don't like the discussion of gameness that you will still be there when the board goes back up and is fixed.

 

What board????????

 

You do have a point there. Are there any good books that give more information on game dogs?

 

yes, the complete gamedog is one of the better ones.you can get it at wildside kennels.richard stratton books are also good

 

Those are all good books, the Strattons books are exceptionally helpful to beginners. Here is a link to a source for more books http://www.pitbullstuff.com/ They have many books that may prove helpful.

 

TRUE BULLDOG, I see what you are saying I am not a breeder, and I was giving more examples of how gameness could be looked at? In any case, thanks for your reply, I know the people in the other board are nice and do not advocate fighting. I think gameness comes from the heart as BBK states. I do not know how that would be tested or passed on .. many opinions on this. THe other forum is still down. so I do not know what is going on there.

 

Now..arent you guys contridicting yourselves??
Now..take into consideration most of you have agreed that gameness is NOT a gene but inthe heart...so then how can you discridit dogs with some blue dogs in their peds?? If Gameness is not in the genes, then why are you so big on peds, no blue dogs, etc because by what your saying, its in the heart and any dog regardless of color, lines, can be game ..I know I'm not wording myself correctly..I'm having a hard time trying to express myself here...

I'm not denying that blues "arent APBTs" or that they really arent bred for gameness..but the ones that are..you are saying its not the genes lol.. but on the other hand, you are saying its not in the blue dogs genes to pass gameness on..

If its just in the heart (which I beleive its a mixute of both. It has to be in the "genes" and also in the heart) then it shouldnt matter on the lines. ..as long as the dog proves themselve.

 

I can't speak for everyone else, but I can speak for myself, blue dogs are bred for 2 main reasons as far as I'm concerned (1) to make a buck and (2) to have pretty show dogs. Therefore, culling hasn't been used in most families of blue dogs, and the percentage of finding a "Game" dog will NOT be high at all, in fact, it will suck. When looking at "families" of dogs, you tend to look for the "norm" of that family, and blue dogs generally aren't game. Gameness is something in a dogs heart...its not a gene, and its not something many blue dogs have.
BB

 

Well put. I think its also the dog's genes and heart. its a combination of both otherwise, like he said there would be no need to look at pedigrees so deeply. Even if you look at the human nature. Take Ali for example. Classic boxer. One of the best in the world. Hell even his daughter fights. That would be a prime example of heart comming from her fathers' 'genes' and her own will to fight. But I'll bet you a lot comes from her fathers' 'genes'.

 

I'm am not into fighting my dogs but it's a fact that these dogs love to fight . It is our duty as responsible owners to train your dog to be social .Remember the old saying " Walk soft but carry a big stick !" I can see gameness in my dogs when I wrestle, roughhouse and play with them. Also when I am training them. I play a rough game of fetch where we ( my dog and I) wrestle for the stick. If Fifty gets his teeth on that stick I can lift him 5 feet in the air and he will not quit . If your have your dog in any attack training programs they can also show your dogs gameness.

 

I am COMPLETELY against teaching a bulldog to attack...we have enough media stories about our dogs and teaching a dog to attack a human is completely going against the bulldogs nature.
There is only one TRUE test of gameness...
BB

 

Negative attacking people has nothing to do with gameness.<!-- / message -->

 

Once again, wrestling for a stick, goin after dogs, etc. is prey drive. Teaching a bulldog to attack people is just real bad idea in my opinion. Like has been said many tomes before, these dogs do not make good guard dogs due to their friendly temperment, and attack training only gives more ammo. for those wishing to abolish the breed. But back to the subject, gameness is a will to overcome, at all costs. And only one reliable way to find it out.

 

I FEEL I MUST RECANT SOME OF THE THINGS I HAVE SAID. I DO APOLOGIZE FOR ATTACKING LIKE I RECENTLY DID. I AM NOT PROUD OF IT. AND I HOPE FOR THE BOARD TO FORGIVE ME OVER TIME. I HAVE HAD MANY GOOD DOGS. AND I HAVE BRED SEVERAL GOOD ONES BOTH PAST AND PRESENT.
HOWEVER, I FEEL IT NECESSARY TO STATE THE OBVIOUS...... LOOK AT WHAT I SAID, RECESSIVE TRAIT......... IT IS RECESSIVE WHICH CAUSES US TO BREED FOR POTENTIAL BULLDOGS, NOT 100% GAME LITTERS. AND IF THE TRAITS, ARE NOT CARRIED BY THE GENETIC MAKE UP, THEN BY THE CHROMOSOMES FROM PARENTS AND GRAND PARENTS, AND IF NOT CARRIED BY CHROMOSOMES, THEN HOW TO WE HAVE THE DOGS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
YOU CAN BREED FOR MOUTH, IT IS A TRAIT.
YOU CAN BREED FOR SHORT AND STOCKY, PHYSICAL TRAIT.
YOU CAN BREED FOR GAMENESS, THE MOST DESIRED TRAIT.
BUT STILL A TRAIT, AND PHYSICAL / MENTAL TRAITS ARE CARRIED ON BY BREEDING TO ANIMALS WITH THE DESIRED TRAITS. AND THESE TRAITS ARE PASSED ON TO THE OFFSPRING, BY USE OF CHROMOSOMES FROM SIRE / DAM. AND THESE CHROMOSOMES ARE WHAT BECOME THE GENENTIC MAKE UP OF YOUR BULLDOG.
AND YES GAMENESS IF OFTEN REFERRED TO AS BIG HEART, THAT DOG HAS ALOT OF HEART, AND GAMENESS IS WHAT COMES FROM WITH IN.
BUT THE FACT STILL REMAINS:
JUST AS A PUP COULD BE BORN AND HAVE NO RELATION TO THE FIRST GRAND SIRE BY GENETIC MAKE UP. A PUP CAN NOT BE BROUGHT UP IN ANY NEW FASHION THAT WOULD INCREASE THE LEVEL OF GAMENESS THAT IS PASSED ON TO HIM/ HER. THE "GAMENESS" THAT LIES WITH IN ANY ANIMAL REMAINS TO BE PASSED ON BY PARENTS AND SOMETIMES GRAND PARENTS.

I WILL NOW SIGN OFF, BUT BEFORE I DO, I WOULD LIKE TO SET SOMEONE STRAIGHT. I HAVE NEVER PAID A STUD FEE TO ANY MAN / WOMAN. HOWEVER, THIS WILL MARK THE YEAR THAT WE WILL BREED (MY BLOOD)OUT SIDE THE LINES. WE ARE HOPING TO ACCOMPLISH A BETTER BULLDOG WITH IN OUR OWN YARD BOUNDARIES FIRST AND THEN ANYWHERE. IT IS JUST TIME TO BREED OUT, WITH TIME IN THESE BULLDOGS YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF NEEDING TO BRING IN NEW BLOOD, FROM TIME TO TIME. AND WE WILL DO THIS BY CROSSING OUR BULLDOGS WITH OTHER LINES. WE HAVE A COUPLE OF BROOD BITCHES THAT HAVE THROWN SOME VERY GOOD BULLDOGS, AND WE ARE GOING TO CHOOSE VERY SOON WHICH DOGS WE WILL USE TO CROSS OUR DOGS WITH. THIS IS THE REASON FOR BREEDING ON DIFFERENT LINES FOR A SEASON..... UNLIKE THE WAY SOME PEOPLE DO IT, (BUY A PUP AND HOPE FOR THE BEST), WE BREED ON THE LINE AND CULL THROUGH IT. I UNDERSTAND THAT SOME FOLKS ARE NOT EQUIPPED FOR DOING IT THAT WAY, BUT IT IS JUST A BROADER CHANCE OF GETTING THE BEST OUT OF SOME LINES.

I REALIZE I HAVE UPSET SOME OF YOU. AND HAVE TO RECALL MY ROOTS. WE ALL HAVE TO START SOME WHERE. AND I WOULD LIKE TO EXTEND AN INVITATION TO ALL, AND SAY IF YOU CAN FORGIVE MY IMPATIENCE AND BIG MOUTH I WOULD LIKE TO HELP THIS SITE AND ANY OF YOU THAT I CAN ALONG THE ROAD.

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION

YIS Onac

 

Hello all!

Since the only way to test for gameness is illegal. How will the nature of the pit bull be preserved in the generations to come? The qualities inherent in these dogs are a result of their selective breeding generation after generation. These are the same qualities (confidence, loyalty, integrity, tenacity, gentle temperment, etc) that make these dogs so attractive to dogmen.

Since dog fighting is illegal I do not condone it. However I understand the importance of dog fighting in the pit bulls' past. I am convinced that it was their selective breeding for a specific purpose which gives us the dogs we love and admire today.

So...

How will the nature of the pit bull be preserved in the generations to come? Or will we have to re-define the pit bull and just talk and read about the dogs of old?

Thank you.

 

First off, should anyone reading this be mislead, I do not match dogs. I also feel it being illegal is simply because those who pushed for/ voted on the subject had no true knowledge of the subject. They simply went on knee jerk reaction to how they feel their house pet would feel in a fight. Unless the house pet in question is a game bred bulldog, that would be a terrifying ordeal. The difference is real gamebred bulldogs enjoy fighting contact. Sorry if I am being too blunt, but feel very strongly about the absurdity of the law. Now I am not talking about all these backyard/garage/etc. fights, these are perpetrated by newbies who due to lack of guidance and info. (other than that put out by various humane groups) fight their dogs without rules, veterinary care, or any concern for their little warrior. These are generally cruel and have nothing to do with real matching of dogs. In some states cock-fighting is still legal. Why? Because not many people have pet chickens.......simple truth. Now not all will feel the same as me, and that is their choice, but felt I neede to add my .02 worth.

 

The old timers bred to dogs that proved game in the pit; the ones that didn't were usually culled. The thinking behind this was probably that the dog that proved game in the pit would perpetuate his/her genes/traits to the offspring. Whether it is a gene or a trait it seems apparent that there was an idea of "passing on" certain qualities.

What is the difference between a trait and a gene?

I agree that you never know what you are going to get when you breed, but there must be better chances of getting the qualities you want in a dog by breeding to dogs with those same qualities.