History of the APBT part one

I never said they came from India i said scolers of old refaired to them as the Indian/Hycrian dogs.i said they had a more centrle Asian origen.

the Alaunt is the desendent of these dogs these old scolers speak of.

My suggestion is that they first apear around 5500 B.C.in the Sumarian period,from a kingdom that streched from were say Iran is now, as far as the Steppes.
im saying the ansesters of the Alaunt are far older then the Greyhound.
and they originated in the area just mentiond..

How do i think they got in this area?
Haha you got me there Dusty!to explain that would mean we would have to explain were the fuck the Samarians came from?..some say they came west from Mongolia,some say they jumped out of fckn space!either way,were ever they came from,they were advanced lol.and its there culture (witch was very modern for the times,and even unexplainable for are times now) that the catch type dog first apears.

Haha Ill leave that one for another time Dusty.
because thats a whole subject in its self.

All the best mate.

 

I believe it's safe to say the our forefathers like J.P Colby, Corvino, ect got there Bulldog's directly from immigrants that were coming from England, Ireland. With these great Bulldog's. Gifted men who dedicated there life's to the betterment of the breed . In every aspect. Breeding best to best, culling, and sticking together. I'm going back to 1880s 90s ect...

 

No idea on origins of bulldogs, clueless on it! Found this and hope it contributes something, I see bulldog type in them sculptures, or maybe I'm only seeing what I want to see?
The Healing Power of Dogs (museum.wales)

 

I see what your seeing here mate..i see a brachyphalic(broard) skull'd dog.oppose to a dolichocephalic (narrow)skull'd dog.(that im sure steave wonder could even see.)
i see the same dog to the dogs i see of the Sumarian period.Babylonion peroid, Assyrian, Egypt exc...
its intresting to note the detail in the text on the Godess of healing.remind you of anybody?perhaps the Samaria desity i just named further back called 'Ilanna'..who also just happens to be the Godess of healing five thousand years before Christ or the Romans were even heard of.
i suppose its safe to assume these Welsh dogs you showed Oldguy,are the same dogs mentiond in the welsh laws confided to around 920A.D.were they are mentiond as 'Cadgi'or battle dog.and 'Gafaelgi'or gripping dog.

Infact these dogs you showed Oldguy look (to me at least)identicle to the dog statues found at Lagash and other Mesopotaimia sights,thousands of years earlier.

Heres some Hancock stuff out his mastiff book im sure to be sued for...

'The Sumerians settled in Mesopotaimia in the fifth millennium B.C. and thrived untill the early secound millenium B.C; intestingly their language resembled the Mongol speech,being reminiscent of the Ural-Altaic languages.Their early rulers maintained close ties with the city state known as Attala,belived to be located in the regoin of the Caspian Sea.Artifacts depicting broad mouthed dogs have been found at Lagash (now Shippurla) and Larsa (biblical Ellasar,now Senkerah) and dated at two thousand B.C..Only in the twentieth century did scholars discover tge imporance of Sumer as an advanced civilisation; it may well be that the Sumarians migrated southwest fromTartary taking with them there huge hunting Mastiffs with them.Certainly there artifacts of Mastiff like dogs are the oldest ever found. In this part of the world,Persia was a central Asian power,the link between east and west. The Babylonians were hunting with broad-mouthed hounds two thousand years before the Mollossi were even known.The Assyrians were hunting with broad-mouthed hounds one thousand years before the Mollossi were known'.

He goes on to say that Aelian who lived in the early part of the third century A.D.makes mention that the Hyrcani and Magnesii used to be accompanied into battle with there dogs but makes no mention of the Molossi using there dogs in this way.
he goes on to qoute Gratius from the Cynecon 'there is a dog of the hunting kind ,born in that country of Molossi witch is eager and keen, runs back and forth with great speed,but the most fiercst dogs there is are the Hircani or Indian'.

He also goes on by saying that the Alans settled in France,north Africa and Spain after wondering from southern Asia through centrel Europe via Ukrain,the Crimea,Hugery and Romainia.he says they were great horsemen and they brought the famous 'Alauntes'to bequeath us the strong headed hunting Mastiffs.
He then goes on in some leangh and links the Alans directly to the Steppe Normads...
"Because Steppes nomads long before the Great Khan,the Scythians and the Sarmatians,were illiterate and left little trace of their arts and crafts,we have tendend to underrate their astonishing impact on other civilizations.Their mastery of the horse brought them over the Caucasus and Carpathians to provide cavarly for the Greeks and Romans and teach the Assyrians most of what they new about the use of the horse.On there belt buckles and shields the elongated 'S' donated the dog.Before about 1500BC Egyptian hunters operated on foot but then the Hyksos arrived from the southern Steppes with horse and chariot.From then on Egyptian noblemen had stables as well as kennels.The Steppe nomads also had hounds that could keep up with the horses,so these were traded to....."

"The Alans,probably the mightiest tribe of the Sarmatians at one period and famous horsemen,accompanied by huge hounds,reached well into western Europe in the fifth century AD.They also provided the Cavarly for Roman Legions in Northern Europe.Topographical place names of Alanic origin appear in Poland,Slovakia,Serbia,Croatia,Germany,Georgia,France(e.g.Alencon),Spain and thoughout the Roman empire,including Britain.
there is evidence there dogs originated in what used to be called Tartary,they were known to the Greeks and Romans as 'Indian dogs' or dogs of the Hyrcani and were linked with ancient scholars to an area called Gurgan,near the historic silk route,now roughly where Iran,Turkmeistan,and Afghanistan now meet."


lol.now ive lined my self up for a law suite,i hope what ive laid down here will give a reason to my speculation about all this.

All the best lads.

 

its a bit of a waste of time speculating on,such ancient history,people are still arguing about where the patterdale originally came from lol.and they have only evolved in the last 50 0r so years from predominantly the fell terrier.That statement alone would get a lot of terriermen steamed up.I can hear them saying now what about the bedlington,the welsh,the irish etc.Breay said this, Buck said that.Nuttall said himself they are a mixture of everything as a result of best to best.It must be the same with all breeds surely with an original working purpose.

 

Soze you been riding on your time machine again lol.You be going back to the days of Adam and Eve next,if you go back any further.And thats an whole new argument.I cant remember my source,but im sure Adam kept a good strain of Irish wheaten terrier,with a dash of welsh blood though!

 

Funny thing is mate ive just went back further past Adam and Eve when i mention the godess 'Ilana'..
I think Ilana is there gr gr grandma!

No shit either lol.

 

There you go Stedz,i just jumped back in my time macheine and unraveld the pedigree of humans!

 

I best stop typing before the men in white suites come take me away lol.

 

You are a history freak. A great one.
I love it

 

Thanks mate...i dont know about a great one...but they will lock me up if i carry on.LOL.

I do go a bit far lol.
my next thread will be how the planet got into the universe..

Im joking LOL.

 

Not a waste of time if your a crazy historian

 

not a waste of time,wrong choice of words.but it seems hard enough to validate stuff going on in our own lifetime,despite advances in technology.The further back we go in any subject i think we rely more and more on speculation though it seems.I admire your passion though soze.I wish i had your patience.

 

Thanks mate i never thought i had any.

But yes Stedz you are correct and speculation it all is.a hyposis of speculation,from all the jumble of human migration threw war and peace,from science and archoligy.
nobodys right,all we can do is come to a educated conclusion.

All the best mate.

 

one of the books i got from doggy was the book of the dog by vesey fitzgerald,i seem to remember that was a good ref book.The only one i know i deffo still got,that came from him was hunt and working terriers Lucas.

 

Both good books.i got both.

 

All of our hounds originally came from. " Ancient Killer Hounds" I read many many years ago that the Pit Bull Terrier was a cross between a Real Old English Bull baiting Bulldog, crossed with a lighter rangy terrier possibly a Whippet. Who know. I do know this for certain. Man can change a Bulldog into a German Shepherd in about 4 generations . Lol..

 

'Ancient killer hounds'...comes from the Stratton book.World of the American pit bull terrier.
he gives a pretty cool diagram or table/pedigree to.
these killer hounds are the start of his pedigree,and these killer hounds are the hounds of anqity i speak of threw out the last mound of texts.

Lets not get into the Bull dog cross terrier thing for now though hey.LOL.
my brain is to far back in history to descuss that side of things just now.

 

Man my brain is still rolling round in pyramd times for me to switch of and talk about a couple hundred years ago lol.

Oh and the German Sheapard saying was by Carver ofcourse.
haha its a really great saying that.
haha i love that saying man.awesome.