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History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS

Discussion in 'APBT History' started by NoRemorse, Mar 5, 2008.

  1. NoRemorse

    NoRemorse Pup

    History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS

    In Wayne D. Brown's book HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER, on pages 25 and 26 he note’s that in the late 1930’s one of the most important bloodlines of Pit Bulls were the Lightner dogs. He illustrates that in the conventions of 1936 and 1937, there were Lightner dogs of the dark variety and Lightner dogs of the red nose variety, and a classic confrontation of the two. When Bob Hemphill wrote Lightner that they were going to use Hall's Searcy Jeff, of the red nose Lightner strain, in the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 at Medicine Park Oklahoma, Lightner wrote back that the red nose blood in Jeff was as game was would ever be bred, and, further that the black and blue breeding in (Runyon's Colorado) Imp (II) was as game as would ever be bred...So, the contest between Hall's Searcy Jeff and Runyon's Colorado Imp II at the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 was a classic confrontation between the red nose Lightner dogs and the dark Lightner dogs. Earl Tudor handled Imp and he proved to be game. Jeff had punished Imp severely around the head and nose and Tudor picked him up. However, he scratched Imp and he went across with his nose bumping the ground, unable to get his head up, but he took a foothold on Jeff. Jeff beat Imp in 54 minutes. Later, Hall's Searcy Jeff was to beat Imp's brother Colorado Dan, also...After Searcy Jeff had beaten Colorado Imp II and Colorado Dan, their owner, Jeff Runyon, quit the game and sold his dogs. This is one of the few times I have ever found in literature, blue dogs before 1936. The year 1936 was the year the AKC finally recognized the, as it was then known, Stafforshire Terrier. This was the year that the red nose dogs defeated the blue blooded dogs. The dogs of this blood was sold but it is not said who to, although it is mentioned that at least some of these dogs found their way to Joe Corvino who, for a time at least, was involved in the formation of the AKC American Staffordshire Terriers. Dogmen wanted winning GAME dogs back then, and Imp certainly proved his gameness that day against Jeff, in a stumbling scratch. Many a true dogmen would have been more than happy to have an Imp bred dog in their yard. Back then game losers weren’t penalized, and were worthy of being bred. I know that AmStaff people regard the red noses with abhorrence, and I also know that Game folks today don't care for the blue color. Actually most of them can’t stand it at all because most of the time (but not always) a blue dog stands for being bred for looks and looks alone. I do have to wonder though what the American Pit Bull Terrier would look like today if Imp II had won that fight compared to the American Staffordshire Terrier?

    Whether or not people want to believe it, blue is a legitimate color in the American Pit Bull Terrier gene pool as evidenced and show further more by the Blue Paul, or sometimes called blue Poll. A Scottish strain now extinct, but whose descendants clearly live on in today’s blue dogs.

    These solid blue or solid red Scottish gladiators resembled the fighting Staffordshires of England but could weigh twice as much. The blue dogs were known in Scotland as Blue Pauls, and the reds as Red Smuts. The name Blue Paul derives from a Scottish yarn about the pirate Paul Jones who reportedly brought the dogs from abroad to the district of Kirkintilloch.

    The dogs were popular with the gypsies of that district who maintained that the dogs originally came from the Galloway coast, lending more color than blue to the Paul Jones tale. Like the bull and terrier breeds from which they derived, the Blue Pauls were game to the death in the ring. These dogs remained mute even at the height of battle, very much like the Tosa of Japan.

    In appearance, the Blue Paul was similar in appearance to the Bullmastiff of the late 1800s. The dog was a smooth coated cobby dog weighing about 45 lbs (20.5 kg), standing 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder. The head was large, the muzzle short and square. The jaws and lips were even, without overhanging flews. The stop was slight: eyes, dark hazel. The ears, set on high, were invariably cropped. The face was wrinkleless but the eyebrows were contracted or knit. Mr. James B. Morrison of Greenock, England reported that the last Blue Paul exhibited was shown in the late 1880s."

    Many people claim that the Blue Paul is now extinct. It may very well be extinct in its pure form, but they were probably crossed with The Pit Bull Terriers in England and Ireland, and the Pit Bull Terriers were brought to America from Scotland. In 1857, McCaffrey imported the dog Spring from Glasgow, Scotland to America. At that time Glasgow was the center of Blue Paul activity. In 1858, in Rhode Island, Spring won a fight in 1 hour, 35 minutes. In 1859 he won a fight in 2 hours 15 minutes. In 1860, in Boston, he beat Tom Story's dog in 2 hours 40 minutes. Spring was bred to Maid of Erin, who was an imported bitch from Dublin Ireland and produced Young Spring. Young Spring won a fight in 1 hour 15 minutes. In 1862 he beat Sheffield George's dog in 3 hours 17 minutes, in New York. When Spring was bred to John Mahon's imported bitch he produced Jeff who won a fight in Providence, Rhode Island in 1 hour. He later won against miller's dog in 1 hour 10 minutes. In 1864 he won another fight in 1 hour 10 minutes. Dick, another son of Spring, won a fight against Spring's Hope in 1 hour 17 minutes. Power's Violet was imported to America from Scotland by her Scottish owner and, on January 10, 1892, beat a dog named Spright in Massachusetts. They fought at Catch weight. Her size, plus her name which indicates a dark blue color, leads to the possibility that she might have been a Blue Paul.

    If the above dogs were Blue Pauls, their bloodline was surly continued in America and others were probably imported to America, England, and Ireland as well.
    Brown also writes in his book that W.C. Roper bred some game dogs from stock sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. Some of Roper's dogs were silver buckskin in color, such as Silver Jack and Roper's (William's) Silver. Roper's Silver won 4 fights at 58 pounds, and another Tudor's Black Jack (16xW) was, according to Earl Tudor, from a Delihant's Paddy/Wichita Mike bloodline. His sire was Black Tige who was sired by Blue Mike. Blue Mike was out of Miss Blue who was sired by Imported Roger out of Henry's Blue Mary. The sire of Blue Mike was Wichita Mike who was out of Henry's Blue Madge and sired by Henry's Black Demon. Several pages later he writes "As we have seen, Tudor's Black Jack was important to the Tacoma line but he was also important to the Ruffian line of American Staffordshire Terriers. He was not only important in the development of pit dogs, including the Dibo line, but he formed the basis for the Ruffian line".

    Someone new to the breed always ask what the difference is between an AKC American Staffordshire Terrier, and a UKC or ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier? When told to the truth, the true history behind the breed most say they don't fight their dogs so why should they even have to know all that stuff? The truth is, if you own a Staffordshire or a American Pit Bull Terrier, it is irresponsible of you not to know the truth, the true history behind the breed.

    In Richard Pascoe’s book, "The American Staffordshire Terrier" he mentions that there are five major lines in the foundation of the American Staffordshire Terrier. Tacoma, X-pert, Ruffian, Crusader, and "California" which is not actually a line, but a combination of lines. The Tacoma was developed by Charles Doyle and Al Brown beginning with the whelping of Tacoma Jack in 1927. The Tacoma line is influenced by Corvino blood early in its history. The Tacoma line is known for its courage and working ability.

    The X-Pert line traces its pedigrees back to Colby, Feeley, Corrington, Tudor and Morris. Alberta and Cliff Ormsby began the line with the whelping of Ormsby's Madge in 1930. The Ruffian line was started by Clayton Harriman in 1938 with the whelping of The Ruffian, bred by F C Klump. The Ruffian line was influential in the development of many other lines, notably E C Ringold's Gallant line, beginning with CH Gallant Ruff and the Har-wyn line of Peggy Harper which finds its foundations in the breeding efforts of Harriman and Whittaker. One of her greats was CH Sky King of Har-Wyn ( half X-Pert). The California lines were strongly influenced by Ruffian and Gallant. Early breeders appearing in California pedigrees include Steele, Gregory, Freese, Farley, Wiswall and Harrison. CH Harrison's Bozo boy was bred by RC Steele and whelped in 1936. The Chatworth Kennels of Ray and Ina Harris include dogs of Freese, Harrison and Wakefield derivation. Rossmore's Naughty Knight, who sired the foundation of the Crusader line, was bred by Gladys Smith. The Crusader line was started in 1950 by Ike and Jean Stinson. In 1955, Smith's breeding of CH Rossmore's Naughty Knight x CH Gallant Susie Q produced CH Knight Crusader, CH Knight Bomber and CH Knight Patroller. All of these dogs played a major role in the development of the Crusader line. The development of all other kennels in the breed come from combinations of these original foundation lines. Notably Sertoma, Archer, Sierra, Tryarr, Willynwood, White Rock, to name a few.

    To be continued...

    rroscoe likes this.
  2. NoRemorse

    NoRemorse Pup


    The foundation of the X-Pert line began in 1932 with Bennett's Buck x Ormsby's Madge. Ormsby's Madge (Corrington's Bennetts Mack x Bennetts Queen) Corringtons Bennetts Mack (Corringtons Tiger Jim Jr x Corringtons Mae Rose) Corringtons Mae Rose was a Tudors Jack II daughter. Her dam, Corrington's Jenny Queen was a Colby bitch. (Colby's Dan x Colbys Blinkey). Bennetts Queen was Colby through her dam, Sharon Madge (Pitts Duke x Pitts Bebe) If you trace the pedigree back two or three generations from there, you will find Colbys Disby, Colbys Bess, Colbys Galtie, Colbys Nancy, Colbys Roger, Colbys Pansy, and Colbys Sally. The X-Pert bloodline is one of oldest in AmStaffs. It was started in 1930 by Clifford & Alberta Ormsby. They lived in Hornell, NY. Clifford Ormsby was 25 years old, and Alberta was 22 when they began their breeding program. The foundation bitch of the X-Pert bloodline is Ormsby's Madge. Cliff bought her in Texas.

    Clifford Ormsby: "...I started with this great breed when you could buy a Pit Bull pup for $5.00. Many times this pup had flat feet, narrow chest, no brisket, bowed legs, fiddle front, cow-hocks, was undershot and had an unreliable temperament. You could shop around and find some desirable ones but it was a problem to find good dominant breeders of quality...."

    Ormsby's Madge was sired by famous pitbull Bennett's Mack, who was also known as Corrington's Mack C. Bennett's Mack was Corrington breeding. His bloods was a cross of Smith & Tudor's lines. Both lines had influence of old Henry bloodline, that was developed by Frank G.Henry in 1890's. But Tudor's dogs were mostly black part of the Henry line, when Charles Smith's dogs were more of the red part of the Henry line and more outcrossed than Tudor's. Tudor's part of Bennett's Mack pedigree was Tudor's Jack II, son of the great Tudor's Black Jack 16xW. In 1930's Tudor's gamedogs were as a sign of success. Earl Tudor of Oklahoma, or Oklahoma Kid as most dogmen of that time called him, was just 22 years old in 1915 when he won with Jack Swift. Earl became well known dogman all over the country in 1920's with his 16 times winner Black Jack dog and 9 times winner Black Jack Jr. There were many breeders in that time who decide to use Tudor's stuff in their breedings. Corrington was one of these breeders of that time. Ok, back to Ormsby's Madge... Her dam was Bennett's Queen, a cross of Hogan's & Pitts' lines. Hogan line was built on Henry blood. Some of Charles Smith's breedings are behind Hogan's too. Pitts' line was mostly old Colby's bloods with some Henry.

    Clifford Ormsby was born in Hornell, NY on August 24, 1905. Alberta also was born in Hornell 3 years later, on June 29, 1908. They were good friends in fact they grew up together a couple of streets apart. Young Cliff had about every animal there was to have. His first dogs were not purebred, and Cliff wanted to have a purebred dog that had spirit. Shortly after they were married Clifford & Alberta decided to take a pure pitbull. In 1930 Cliff went to Leonard,Texas, he took the dog, that he wanted. This was a female from W.F.Bennett's breeding, out of the famous pitbull dog Bennett Mack & Bennett Queen. The name of this female pup is well known to many Am Staff breeders, ORMSBY'S MADGE. It was the start, a Great start!

    In 1938 Clifford built a kennel. It was the very modern kennel for that time. There was a water heating system in the kennel floor. He put hot water system himself. When Clifford spoke about his kennel, he said: "Dr. Byer ( Ormsby's veterinarian) come down and asked, "Who built this kennel, who made this kennel for you?" I said, "I did!" He said that," this is a good layout for a small kennel." The heating in the floor, that's the most economical heating too. You see, you've got to put it in right. This is six to eight inches on center, I think three quarter inch wide. I know there's about seventy elbows in it. It has two units, there was no sense in that becouse I never divided it. I always used the whole thing. I have a pressure pump. I can put it on automatically...... "

    In the beginning of Cliff & bert's Staffordshire Terrier breeding, Cliff wasn't interested in "showing" of their dogs. Alberta changed his mind though. She said, " If we're going to have dogs, I'm going to show". The first dogs they shipped to Willfred Brandon. Alberta was very interested in handling their dogs herself. And the first super champion of the X-Pert family, shown by Alberta in many dog shows was the legendary Ch. X-Pert Brindle Biff. He was the favorite dog of Clifford, Alberta & their daughter, Dorothy. When Peggy Doster asked Alberta, "What is the name of the best dog or bitch you ever bred?" Alberta said: "Biff. He was my first dog. I suppose I'm partial. You know, first show dog. I took him to shows all over the country. I showed him all over. I took him all over the place & he won all over the country. I'd go in the ring and people would say:"There goes that woman, again, with that dog"".

    Alberta was licensed to judge Stafs & Boxers. She began to judging in '40'. In 1995 Peggy Doster asked Alberta: "Why did you decide to begin judging?". Alberta said this: " It got me out to California and it got me away from cleaning up kennels at home. It wasn't long ago that they wanted to know if I would come out there and judge the dogs. They had read on their catalog that I had been out there in 1979. Wouldn't I look cute....trying to judge dogs. .....Boxers and Stafs and any breed I can quality for, but I don't want to. You know, too much for me, I don't want to get out there and get sick or something, you know."

    Alberta: " I was out in Califonia, judging, and I had Am Staff in the ring that was all chewed up in his head. I said, "This dog was in fight. That was in 49', I think. And he said: "Yes, he had a fight yesterday, they fought him." And I said "He did? He's all chewed up." I said, "Will he shakes hands with me?" He said, "Yeah, but he shakes with his hind leg." He stuck his hind leg up to me and shook hands."

    the original author of this article is a member here named CHATNJACK
  3. misterdogman

    misterdogman CH Dog

    I know there has been lots of posts by myself and others about these same dogs in the prior story....and a time when there was several game bred Staff and blue lines that were producing good dogs. But of course as stated they became more for show and lost this trait... and now not that theyre not in existence but just more rare than you could imagine and impossible to find on call. If I could find a game as hell blue dog I would have no problem aquiring one, as long as it was indisputably game and was in line with a good breeding program similar to mine. But if I bred that dog and did not produce blues like him I could care less.... as long as they were performers,..... this is where the gamedog vs designer breeders differ in thought, we game dog people could care less what a dog looks like... if it is a natural athlete and worker with a never quit attitude it could be purple with pink dots and we would have a yard full. EVEN IF IT HAD A HEAD SHAPED LIKE A MUSHROOM AND WAS UNCONFORMED BUT STILL WAS GAME and athletic....so who cares about anything else but peformance and the dog in questions gameness. As long as your not reproducing certain flaws and bad attributes that could hurt the dogs in the future than color and size and shape matter nothing as long as the dogs produced are game as the prerequisite of the breeds standard demands.
  4. Good performance dogs don't have good or bad colors... this is a myth.

    El Diablo Cinzano (Costa Rica's greyline X Boudreaux blood from Ch Pancho)
    This 2xW is one eyed (his right eye is useless) and got his first victory very easily, even with half visual perception...
  5. Dreamer

    Dreamer Big Dog

    Wayne Brown's book is entitled: "History of the Pit Bull Terrier".

    Whoever wrote that article above needed to be more careful about exact quotes from the book and where he paraphrases -- with both Brown's book and the Pascoe book.

    Direct passages from the book should be set off and the article's author's comments clearly made separately.

    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2008
  6. synno2004

    synno2004 Top Dog

    thank you!
  7. i think the biggest problem with the blue dogs in last 30 yrs maybe lil longer is that they where requested for looks and not working ability and then gave blue a bad reputation. and when certain breeders where trying to make big profit they ruined the heritage of the dog. and now 99.9% of the blue dogs are ambullies. myself i dont care what color as long as working ability. i have seen a few true game blue dogs
  8. Bump!........what a load of bullshit!....if your gonna copy and paste some one don't re-right what they wrote..LOL..........
    now that stuff about the Blue Paul.or Blue Polls.......them dogs were not blue!..were is there proof that they were blue???...please tell me....the only drawing of one is in the 1880s.and it was foud in a dog show in Northern England..it was sketched.and it dose(even tho it's not a colour print)appear to be of a bulish/greyish colour..and it's owner stated that it's the last Blue Paul in the country.....so what???..the owner gonna say that lol..he was probably trying to sell it lol......no!.that's not a Blue Poll.....check Alkens pictures out of Blue Polls.they are white with red or black spots on there heads.they are real Blue Polls.and they are doing battle in the pit with dogs or badgers..they look no different from the pit dogs of the time!...yes!.they came from Scotland..the Scottish flag is blue!..Poll is a name for Paul.yes it is...it's also a name for PIT!!!......Scottish Pit....or Scottish pit dog it means.....the captain Poll/Paul brought them assure.there's a good chance that happend.but I don't think he brought them from Ireland..late 1700,maybe 1778 something like that.....I think he brought them back from Italy.I think these so called Blue Paul's are were the black gene comes from in today's pit dogs.not the Blue gene in the pet/show mutts...I think this captain imported big black baiting dogs from Italy in the 1770s...and be the time Alken was drawing them(1810)they were a variety of colours.quite simply they were a Scottish strain of pit dog that were as good as any other pit dogs on main land England..and they were frequently crossed with all the strains on the main land..Alkens sketch (1810)is most definitely the last of the Polls....then lol.in 1880 a blue mutt is spotted at a dog show in England....and sketched.and it's owner claims it the last Poll.....hummm?seems to me the chap did not no what the fuck his blue mutt was...
    Is there any colour pictures of Henry's Blue Mike???...many modern day pit dogs may have a bluish tinge to there coats.but they not blue.many red dogs when young have a bluish or purplish tinge to them.but they ain t what we would call blue.are they now?..many black dogs have I inky shine to there coat.dosen t mean there blue.some light brindels have a greyish tinge to them.still don't make them blue...maybe Henry's Blue Mike had this tinge or shine to his coat??.maybe he had a blue eye??.....
    Yes some Staffordshire Bull Terriers have this coat!...because of the Blue Poll???.lol.no....because of a Whippet cross before they became registered!.lol...that will hurt the Staff fanciers I bet...
    The Blue Poll was not blue...Blue means Scottish..and Poll means Pit.

    Some one please post a pic of a Blue dog that was a worker(in the pit,not hunting or nothing.)....there ain t any.
    Some genuine working Staffs were blue..but there was always more pre dominant colours.
    Box Bulldog and david63 like this.
  9. And lol....the Blue Poll was a Bullmastive type dog what stood about 20 inc....lol.that's straight of wekapidia
  10. kiwidogman

    kiwidogman Big Dog

    Page one of a four page article from SDJ Jan 2012. Support the SDJ and buy a copy to read the rest.
    david63 and Soze the killer like this.
  11. See that picture???.the one of the bullish dog???...that's not a Poll!!!.....read the story you just posted.nice story..... "The dog was dark blue named Paul and altho he had no pedigree he was said to be from the Kirkeudbright district." .......was he now?.yeah,I bet he was.........
    No.....Google Alkens depictions of the Blue Poll.1810...they just the same as any other pit dogs of the time......there's one of Alkens drawing of dogs on a bear.and one of the dogs is blue..but the original print the dog is brindel!!!.....so take no notice.....
    I don't believe they were blue.
    I believe they came from Italy.but I got no proof.
    I believe the imports from Italy and there first generations were the reason mastive or Bulldog type dogs were prohibited in Scotland in the late 1700s...they were said to have eat a man...hummm?.the dogs around Italy in art work at that time apear to be black..that eat men in the ring!.(or arena).....hummm?.hell of a lot of black man eaters still to this day.....I believe they came known as Blue Polls..because the Scottish flag is blue..and Poll means Pit.......Blue Poll..
    The hole story you posted,, and I don't care if the sporting dog jornel printed it lol....is just a mixture of story's told over the year's.about the mysterious Blue Poll.....lol.I bet this story came out about the time people started saying they had blue game dogs..............and the Loch Ness monster exists.Badgers are 80lbs..rats are 60........and them Blue dogs now, staffs or pitbulls.are direct descendents of the Blue Polls.:))........

    Yeah,I just seen a shark in the small river by ares
    david63 likes this.
  12. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    "Sky Ball" , a son of a Blue Paul, in an advert from early part of the last century .. rochester and caire.jpg

    Attached Files:

    david63 and Soze the killer like this.
  13. Dose not say the colour of the dog tho......
    Nice for a true historian to get in.
    Can you please post a pic of a Alken print of a Blue Poll???...there the same as the drawing on your avatar...but more of a pointy face.but same body..could of came out the same litter....

    What's your opinion on this subject Dusty Road???...
    Ide love to here it.
  14. It still dose not prove they exited at that time..perhaps "Sky Ball" carried lines back to the Polls???.....or perhaps he was another last Poll??...LOL...
  15. I just thought....maybe some specimens did come in blue..I said further up i believe they came from Italian baiting dogs...the Neapolitan Mastiv to this day comes in blue and black and brindel..so Maybe when these big black Italian mastivs got imported into Scotland,perhaps when they were bread they though a Blue colored pup???...
    But any old real drawings I can find and the Polls are not blue.
    There's a great picture on this sight some were and it says the dogs are a Bulldog and a Poll...they are both white.one of the dogs is wearing a muzzle....they look like they could have came out the same litter..the Poll got a more pointy muzzle then the Bulldog but that's about it....YIS
  16. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

  17. Keep it coming Dusty......lol.I don't no were you find this stuff.you must have a tomb of old news papers on dogs.lol...
    can you post the picture of the Blue Poll drawing the Badger(Alken).???
    david63 likes this.
  18. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    I don't know the print , but seen these H Alken prints h alken badger bait.jpg BADGERBAIT..00.jpg BADGERBAITING.. H.ALKEN.jpg badger bait.jpg
  19. 100% the first one!.....exactly the same.the one I seen says it's a Blue Paul Terrier..there is a few variations in the prints Dusty,some are different colours ,some are black and white,some have different saying or titles...so it's hard working out wich is close to the original...that first one is 100% the one I seen and it was in black and white.(you can still tell on this one the dog is white tho).it says the dog holding brock is a Blue Paul Terrier.and then it says something about the other dog waiting it's turn on the unfortunate Badger..if you dig round you will find it find it Dusty......

    I'm a huge fan of Alkens drawings..he was a very talented dog artist of his day and even tho some of the prints resemble a punch type drawing ,,,they are still very accurate..I find his drawings on fighting type dogs quite interesting.his eye for catching the mood and environment are pretty unique.....and I would love some on the wall.
    And if we believe what he draws .(witch I do.)
    Then that top one is a example of the Blue Paul.it's interesting to note that there is a picture of a Blue Poll and a Bulldog on this sight some were.it's NOT a Alken drawing..it's in a even finer detail.real excellent it is......and the Blue Poll on this print is pretty much like that dog on that first print...
    Ide say they were a Pit dog from Scotland..no different to any other Pit stain of the times.. ide say they had there own characteristics like any other blood line,,ide say these characteristics can or could of been distinguished by:slightly bigger,,pointy longer muzzle,,some specimens came in a dark colour....and maybe some Henry dogs went back to dogs that carried the blood?......that first print is around 1810-1820??...in the Pits around London.most likely The Westminster Pit..and that's a Blue Poll,a Scottish strain of Pit dog of the times..it's most likely, buy the time the Pit Dogs were becoming hugely popular to ship to American.The Blue Poll had been bread into every other strain on these Isles....perhaps it was kept pure for another 70 years or so in certain districts?...who knows?...
    Perhaps all the myths surrounding it are true,and they were mostly blue,,,they had deerhound,Bedlington,and all kinds in them,,fought with sea serpants,,killed the Loch Ness Monster and all sorts?.lol......

    Nice pictures Dusty.
    david63 likes this.

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