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Fatal Flaws in Working Dogs

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by NGK, May 1, 2012.

  1. sadieblues

    sadieblues Premium Member Premium Member

    Yeah she has a very deep chest ... I like Tornado .... She looks very solid and strong ... Thank You BTW
  2. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

  3. sadieblues

    sadieblues Premium Member Premium Member

    Nice Dogs, NGK ...

    I was looking at some pictures of GR CH Buck I never realized how rangy he was lol In some of his pictures he looks a bit bigger .. These were the two I found and I could see why Lola was so narrow and rangy looking LOL

  4. venom

    venom Top Dog

    I was taught the same but not to exclude a dog with everything else going for it. Just not to take it to a dog with the same problem.
  5. Dream Pits

    Dream Pits CH Dog

    Buck was tall intelligent and had great wind. And was a mentally tough as they come and thats why he was a great dog. my favorite
  6. allaboutpitbull

    allaboutpitbull Big Dog

    Can we see some pic of straight / overangulated stifle or cow hocked dogs and then see pic of correct conformation to compare one from the other
  7. F.D.

    F.D. Top Dog

    Wind is important (the ability to take in and efficiently use oxygen). Also important is the ability to cool the body through breathing, and thus to avoid overheating. Both of these may be related to having a muzzle that isn't too short. If two dogs have equal ability, strength, structure, drive and gameness, I think the dog with better wind would be at an advantage. But I assume that merely having a muzzle of a certain length is only one element of having good wind. You probably couldn't really know until you exercised the dog heavily. But I have had dogs with shorter muzzles that did seem to get hot faster, and it was easier to tire them out, despite how much they wanted to keep exercising. Also, a short muzzle makes biting from the side harder, since it requires a more frontal bite.

    OK, now bring on the short-muzzled dogs that had the wind of a greyhound...
  8. venom

    venom Top Dog

    That doesn't prove much though. Of course dogs equal in all aspects but wind, the one with wind would be at an advantage. That could be said about every trait. Dogs equal in all aspects but mouth... The one with the greater is advantage. When the lack of is a true disadvantage is when you are better in most aspects than the opposition but your weakness of wind proves to be your Achilles heel. cuz when all is equal any little thing will be an advantage.
  9. sadieblues

    sadieblues Premium Member Premium Member

    I can see that Lola is really tall too. I love Buck as well besides Mayday he would be my other favorite.
  10. F.D.

    F.D. Top Dog

    I should have developed this idea more within the theme that is being discussed. Poor wind is a fatal flaw. A dog with poor wind will have problems getting into the extreme level of shape required, and will have problems competing. But I think the idea is what physical flaws are fatal, and wind is a mixture of physical and physiological. But I think muzzle length is one aspect of wind, and you can see muzzle length. So this seems to fit in with a discussion of angulation, cow-hockedness, etc. Don't you agree?
  11. venom

    venom Top Dog

    Yeah I agree but I wouldn't cull a dog from my yard based on muzzle length.
  12. The front end is the shield, the back end is the motor, in between lays the connection between the two. Thin bones don't matter at all, it's the bone density that matters.
    A fatal flaw in our dogs is when one can't stand with our best, the decision is made.

    I stopped trying to "look" at a dog and fantasize about what it can and can't do a long time ago. I know now I don't know jack and have to see it for myself.
  13. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    Excellent comment Gringo.

    Buck is a good example of why there are no physically flaws that are always considered fatal. His front end is too fine & narrow but it certainly didn't hurt his performance any. Some of the greatest pit dogs of all times had what could be considered physical flaws. Tornado was long bodied & overly muscled, QOH was too long. I could go on and on. That is why I have always made a distinction between functional conformation & technical conformation. The former being what works in the real world and the latter being a written standard of what someone thinks should work.
  14. sadieblues

    sadieblues Premium Member Premium Member

    Well said Gringo .. And benthere that's were your comment "The only truly fatal flaws in a dog are in their heart & mind", makes all the sense in the world. When good game dogs have those physical fatal flaws working against them like buck, I suppose the heart and mind overpowers everything else and won't stop them from doing what needs to be done.
  15. F.D.

    F.D. Top Dog

    No, and I doubt many people would. But you would probably cull a dog with inherent poor cardiovascular ability. In other words, a dog that overheats and can't keep oxygenated despite physical conditioning.
  16. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

  17. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    here is another example of what i see as ideal 'working conformation'.
    gambler has a wide deep chest and powerful neck, these traits are lacking in most adba show champs these days in my opinion.
    the conformation judges of today seem to get caught up in minutiae obsessing over irrelevant details of a dogs physique that have no bearing regarding winning or losing at the breed's original task (in other words the judges pick 'pretty dogs' not dogs with BREED TYPE).

    maybe someone on this board has a few more pics of gambler. i'd like to see some head on pics.
  18. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    I am sure some of you here have played some type of contact sport such as football ,fighting real physical sports..I have played physical sports and I was nothin to brag about just average at best..What I am trying to say though is every once in a while you come across someone who is small,not well built say 175 lbs..and have the power of a much bigger person although its rare these type of people they do pop up from time to time and just totally fuck your day up..I think with dogs its the same way every once in a while you get one that dont look like he can do it but he can.
  19. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    those kinds of people likely had a very strong will that went a long way to enhance their physical ability.
    many years ago when i was doing construction work i spent alot of time working for joe montana. he was a relatively small man, less than 6 feet tall and maybe 175lb. but when the greatest of all time are mentioned his name is there. what i remember most about him is the look in his eyes when the game was on the line and his will to win. i've seen that look in the eyes of bulldogs too.
  20. puppdlr

    puppdlr Pup

    Exaggeration is interesting,We shared this in an attempt to encourage better picture taking.And to stick to real dogs.
    We are of the school of "Form Follows Function" Ralph had that standard, Sadly the young ladies don't.
    You see that now days in ponies. A neighbor owns Rags and is running him in a race.She knows little of form or function so hires the opinion of yes men who of course,say,'you want to win?then use Native dancer."
    The result is a horse that can easily break down in a pretty short race.One can breed to winners and ruin a breed.
    Say 'what does that have to do with this thread on fatal flaws?' Desire is only one factor,One can want to,yet be unable. We save it and try to compensate for the 'unable"
    When one mentions queen,tornado,mayday,how sure are you about the desire?And how well did they reproduce?
    What can you do the compensate for defects? Spend more 1 on 1 time with pups 21 day to 12 weeks.Owners contribute to later duds by ignoring brain development. We'd enjoy seeing matt breed to 5 females and looking over the offspring @2
    'A friend mentioned seeing 20 females bred to J Rod's dog[a real eye catcher]Said he got quite a few brindles. Don't know how many turned out. One may be better off not breeding to winners that haven't put in a lot of time.

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