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dublin red

Discussion in 'Staffordshire Bull Terriers' started by buk, Mar 17, 2010.

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  1. buk

    buk Big Dog

    hello i been searching and trying to find out about the dublin red strain now for a while.there is so much info on physcho/storm and i would like to find out more about this strain of these bulldogs.

    how do they compare to the old physco dogs and other game bred staffords are todays dublin red bred dogs still about and are they watered down in terms of not being bred to other working bred dogs and bred tight to other dublin red dogs.

    what does a typical dublin red dog look like in size and shape do they vary or are they similar to other working line dogs.i dont really know this about these bred dogs as i not seen any that im aware of and would like to know as much as poss about them as i would love to have 1 for myself and would appreciate if anyone on here can help me and put me on to anyone that can help me out in getting a dublin red bred dog.

    any info and pictures would be a great help
  2. nasher

    nasher Big Dog


    The background to the Dublin Red Strain is made up of descendants of Ch. Gentleman Jim, both Brindle Devil and Bankhead Bullfighter, were from his lines and were exported to Ireland from England.
    In the middle of the 1950's, Harry Payne from Yorkshire, England mated his bitch "Chelmont Grand Duchess" with the show champion Pal of Aveth and in that litter there was a dog who was named Brindle Devil. Mr. Payne certainly did the Irish Stafford scene a great favor when he sent Brindle Devil to Ireland, the dogs excellent qualities carried on into his sons and daughters and into their sons and daughters and so on. The most common of his linage were the Battling prefix dogs. These appear a great many times in modern Red strain dogs pedigrees.

    Russells Ch. Red Joe

    Russells Ch. Red Joe
    Sire: Ch.Red Warrior Dam: Red Dart of Asquith

    Red Joe won three contract matches and lost one in 1 hr 3 mins to Dillenger, a very good K.C Staff bred from . He was also set down on other occasions that were not recorded, proving himself to be a game, honest Stafford.
    Red Joe was a very popular stud dog in his day, siring over 70 pups,many going abroad to working stafford fanciers in countries such as Holland, Sweden, U.S.A. and Israel.
    He was, of course, the sire to some excellent offspring at home in England.



    Brindle Devil was owned by Willie Delaney from Dublin, Ireland who with Bob Watt from Dublin was the founder of the Dublin Red Strain of dogs. At that time Bob Watts owned a bitch named Battling Beauty, a daughter of Fearless Cavalier and Spring Beauty, and after she was mated to Brindle Devil she gave birth to two great dogs, Battling Duchess, and Battling Devil.Both Duchess and Devil were show winners, but they were also great badger dogs.
    Shamus McNutt a well known Stafford fancier in Ireland bought her from Bob Watt in 1962 when she was 3 years old and he later claimed that she was one of the best bitches he ever owned. She was also was used in the Badger trials of Ireland which she passed with Honors.

    Brindle Devil was also mated to a bitch called Brindle Bonny, and in that litter there was two exceptional dogs, Great Roger and his famous brother Satan's son. When Battling Duchess was mated to her half brother Satan's Son she produced both Battling Dolly and the Red Commando. Tony Lee, another well known Stafford fancier in Ireland was the owner of the Red Commando. This dog was regarded as one of the best dogs in Ireland in the 60's. When Tony Lee bred the Red Commando with Matador Maid they produced two great dogs. One was a bitch named Granitefields Reba's Beauty and the other was the immortal Wolf Island boy.

    Wolf Island Boy
    Wolf IslandGirl

    Wolf Island Boy was renowed for his ability at the Badger and he won the best dog award at the trials twice, once in 1975 and then in 1977. He was also known as Lord Rommel, and his sister Wolf Island Girl and offspring's went under both prefixes. Despite his great ability at the trails it was said that he would not fight other dogs.

    Wolf Island Boy also had a famous half sister called Cardonagia Red, which was out of Red Duchess and the Red Commando. When the Red Commando was put across Cardonagia Red she produced Mandy of Rommel and this bitch in turn was put across another of Brindle Devils sons the Great Caesar, producing the well known Frazer of Ireland.

    Frazer of Ireland was brought over to England by Maurice Dann and it was said that Frazer was one of the gamest Stafford's Maurice ever owned. Maurice also imported a bitch named Mandy of Dublin, another game dog of this line and with both Frazer and Mandy he had his foundation dogs for his Strain of Stafford's.

    Frazer of Ireland

    Red Warrior was a result of Frazer and Mandy and was regarded as a very game dog, winning many battles. Nearly all off the Dublin Red strain have this dog in their pedigrees and he was the sire to many game dogs like, Ch Red Joe, Ginger, Leo, and Rocky Ch. Red Warrior was also known as Dann's Choice and it is said that he died of parvo in 1983, but nevertheless he sired many great Red Strain dogs, which in their turn passed on the genes and the result is the Red Strains we see today.

    Ch. Red Warrior

    When bred to the Red Dart of Asquith he produced Russell's Ch. Red Joe, a 3x winner. Out of all Ch. Red Warriors sons Ch. Red Joe is probably the most known and probably most frequent used as a stud dog. It is claimed that he has sired over 75 pups, some going to Sweden, Holland, the U.S.A and even Israel and that shows how sought after his blood was. He has had 4 contracted matches and won 3,but lost one against John's Dillenger in 1 hour and 3 minutes. He has however fought more than this unrecorded.


    Red Joe Vs Dann's Rocky Winner: Red Joe 20 minutes.
    Red Joe Vs Ben (EBT) Winner: Red Joe 40 minutes.
    Red Joe Vs Paddy Winner: Red Joe 48 minutes.
    Ch.RedJoe Vs John's Dillenger Winner: Dillenger 1 hour 3m.

    Dann's Rocky & Bess
    Ch. Red Joe

    Dann's Ginger was out of Ch. Red Warrior and the Young Mandy of Dublin and when bred to her half brother Ch. Red Joe she produced Ch. Jim. Even though Ginger was game she was lacking in ability and had a weak bite. But she was tested and showed that even under a great deal of pressure she would not quit.

    Ch. Jim must have made a great impression on Shamus McNutt, because he would praise the breeding of him and his offspring in every letter we got. Many considered this dog a 6x winner even though he lost to Gr. Ch. Sam due to a fault and a bad referee.

    When Ch. Jim was bred to Ruby she produced Ch. Jess. Her matches were reported to the Sporting Dog Journal in the U.S.A.

    Ch. Jim
    Ch Jess

    Springview's Sinbad was out of Ch. Jim and Ch. Jess and was by Shamus McNutt claimed to be the greatest purebred Stafford that ever lived. That statement should say a lot about this dog since Shamus basically had seen them all since the 60's. He also quoted this dog as a Gr. Ch. since he had beaten 4 APBT's and a good staff, all winning dogs until they met Sinbad in the early 90's. In his first match he faced a APBT and won in 2 hours and 42 minutes, which is a great achievement and makes you understand why Shamus thought so highly of this dog.

    When bred to his Dam, Ch. Jess he produced another claimed Gr. Ch named Red, a 6x winner over Stafford's and half-breeds. He also had a litter brother named Morris, which ended up as a pet in Derry,Ireland. Leo the litter brother of Ch. Red Joe was matched at 48lbs into an APBT named Heather's Zac, which was weighing much more than him. Rocky was scheduled for this match, but had to withdraw and Leo took his place. The APBT was a good dog and unfortunally Leo lost the match and also his life. Dann's Rocky was out of Ch. Red Warrior and Dann's Tasha. Hard biting like his Sire, but unfortunally rated as a cur by many. It was claimed that he was always overweight when he was matched and that he was also very lazy. Some claim that he was a 2x winner and some say he was a 3x winner, but one thing that is for certain is that he lost 3 times. He lost to his half brothers, Ch. Red Joe and Leo and to an APBT named Reon. Despite his strange career he sired dogs like, Josh, Buzz, Dillenger and Albert. When Rocky was bred to the Red Dart of Asquith she produced Josh and Buzz. Josh was a very well respected dog, game, intelligent and strong and with a bite like his father. According to Shamus McNutt, Josh fought and won over a imported APBT from Pat Patrick named Moonshine in 40 odd minutes, killing him in the pit. Then on his second outing he lost game to Stormer in 1 hour and 27 minutes. Then on his third outing he lost to Cooper, a Patrick dog born in quarantine in England. Josh lost in 1 hour and 35 minutes, but Cooper could not be matched again after that and never could make a third match to become a Champion. Then Josh came out again to face Nigger, a son of Cooper, and won in 1 hour and 15 minutes. Then he lost to Ch. Smuggler an APBT in 54 minutes.


    Buzz was a strange dog that would only fight when he felt for it. When he did decide to fight he was said to be devastating, but he lost to Ch. Jim and Ch. Stormer in less than 4 minutes and he lost in his match with Ch. Ben after 1 hour and 38 minutes. He did however win over a EBT called Governor in 1 hour and 38 minutes.

    Dillenger was a result of Dann's Rocky and Hey's Mitzy. He was matched against Cox's Billy, a son of Buzz and he lost in 1 hour and 1 minute. Dillenger's Dam was also matched once, but the other dog got a hold of her tongue and she had to be picked up. Billy went on to face Gr. Ch. Jack after his match with Dillenger, but lost in 25 minutes.

    Albert was out of Dann's Rocky and a bitch named Mad Mariah. He was rolled out and showed that he had a hard bite like his Sire Rocky. He was the brother to Brindle Dina and Red Rose, which was the Dam of the famous Gr. Ch. Big Red.

    Gr. Ch. Big Red

    Gr. Ch. Big Red was a son of Ch. Red Joe and got his title at Ed Reid's Intercontinental Kennel Clubs confirmation shows. He has also proved himself in weight pulling events, pulling well over 30 times his body weight, approx 1500 Lbs.

    There is no doubt that the Red strain is a very highly regarded strain even today nearly 50 years after it was founded. With dogs like this, being the back bone of what we see today who wouldn't be impressed?


    Red Dart Of Asquith aka Hopcroft's Bess


    Red Dart Of Asquith aka Hopcroft's Bess
    Sire: Smith's Red Joe Dam: Beaumont Great Lady

    The "Red Dart Of Asquith" was a top producing bitch for the "Dublin Red" strain of Stafford, most notably she was the Dam to "Leo", "Buzz", "Josh" and "Ch.Red Joe". She is pictured above (left) with "Danns Rocky", the mating responsible for "Josh". "Red dart of Asquith" (Bess) was two-dogged in a test against English bull terriers, one of which took its death at 14 mins. On another occasion she broke the jaw of a good bitch after 10 mins. Bess also had an "off the chain" match against "Mitzi" (sister of "Derry macash rascal"), both were picked-up game. "Bess" had a brother called "Rusty" who was a game Stafford and produced a son known as "Mad Max" that won 4 matches. Their father "Smiths Red Joe" was said to be very good and stopped many dogs in various tests, the longest going over the hour

    [​IMG] Frazer of Ireland


    Frazer of Ireland
    Sire: Ch.The Great Ceaser Dam: Ch.Mandy of Rommel

    Bred in Ireland from pure K.C stock and also known as Boomerang, Frazer of Ireland along with a bitch known as Mandy of Dublin were shipped to Maurice Dann in England as the foundation stock that became known as the "Red Strain" dogs, due to most of them being a deep red colour,although the occasional brindle is thrown. Frazer was regarded as one of the gamest Staffs ever owned by Mr.Dann and when bred to his Mandy bitch produced the deep game Ch.Red Warrior, AKA Dann's Choice.******** *****

    Breeder: T Lee
    Sex: Male
    Colour: Black, Brindle

    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2010
  3. Blanco

    Blanco Big Dog

    Are Today's Dublin Red's Pure?

    They are Stafford's produced from Stafford's that didn't quite make the grade in the
    show ring or to big to badger trail with, Many of these dogs were unregistered but
    carried pet or nick names, these dogs were more terrier and carried little bull.
    The hard cold facts are, absolutely not, they are not a pure Dublin reds, they may have been line bred to certain key dogs that were close to the main original key old dogs that helped and were responsible for giving birth to the name, The Dublin Red's.

    I will give you my honest opinion and the feeling about today's named Dublin Red Stafford's..

    Would I consider them pure? a catch 22 question really because, yes they were all bred from Stafford's, but bred from Stafford's were some were unregistered and from Stafford's that quite didn't make the grade in the show rings, that came in all shapes sizes and colours.

    There are so many debates about the Dublin Red Stafford's....I have to be honest, I have read so many different articles produced over the internet about the Dublin Reds and I have to say, some of them really make my blood boil because they are so far removed from the real truth, it's just unbelievable! ... We all know that old saying.... paper doesn't refuse ink, individuals can write what ever they want to these days, and so many do, I just wish they would tell it how it really was! ...why certain individuals twist and bend the truth I will never know, personally the only reason why these individuals choose to bend the truth about the Dublin Red's is that they are either egotistical individuals who feel the need to pump up their own dogs for whatever the reason, who knows.... just a very silly way to carry on and not doing the original Stafford men and their dogs little justice.

    Now getting back to today's Dublin Red's being pure... "No" there just wasn't enough of the old dogs within that lines to keep that particular line pure.... the main key dog for the Dublin Red line was "Brindle Devil" many of his pups were brindle but when he was mated to Eddie Byrnes red bitch produced a litter with a majority of the pups being red, a few of the pups from this littler were exported to the USA, these pups went down so well with the USA among the APBT breeders, Eddie Byrnes did a re-mating of the two, this litter were all red in colour but in regards to the breed standard and the showing end of things, none of these puppies made the grade and couldn't be shown because they were all over the top in size and carried more of the terrier type gene than the bull, these puppies were over the top in size and very lean, so for the Stafford fanciers Byrnes and Delaney this was a big problem because the pups couldn't be shown and they were also to big to enter a badger set.

    These pups were all given away to a few local lads in Dublin city, this was just the start of the Dublin Red's, at this period in time in Dublin city just as it is today in some big cities around the world, for the youth, loitering around the street corners at night, to have a Staffy by your side was considered to be a symbol of hardness/toughness, you were even harder and considered top of your game if you owned a Staffy out of Willie Delaney's Staffie, Ch.Brindle Devil.... this was around the same time the IKC came up with the Idea to issue champion certificates for badgering, it wasn't long before every kid that owned a Staffie wanted a pup out of Brindle Devil because when your in the Stafford circle, everyone knows everyone and knew what dogs were at the top of their game... so it wasn't long before everyone wanted a pup out of Brindle Devil and you have to understand my uncle was focused on producing a combination type and gameness and to let every tom dick and harry used the dog was not going to help him reach his goal but knew in the wrong hands could do more harm to the breed and to great harm to my uncles reputation in the show ring, so my uncle had to put a few restriction on the dogs his use.

    There were quite a few that was turned down on his stud services, this didn't really work to well because the people who got turned down started to seek out other Staff breeders who had a dog out of Brindle Devil and would their dogs.....so it wasn't before long my uncle would see kids with Staffs hanging around the sheriff street flats down by the railway street boxing club in the city of Dublin.

    My uncle was also a trainer of a boxing club, called the railway street club and we would be in there training 3 -4 times a week, but I remember we were driving down to the club on evening and Willie saw this kid with two red Staffs, so my uncle pulled over and shouted out the window....hey kid that's a great looking dog you've got there and proceeded to say, were did you the Staffs from.... the kids shouted back, they're Delaney's reds, that was the first time my uncle had ever heard the term Red being associate to him or his dogs, it was a bitter sweet moment for him because you had all these Staffs around Dublin being called Delaney's Red's or Dublin Red's.... this really bothered my uncle because now you have Staffs all over Dublin, it didn't matter if they were 15 inches off the ground or 34 inches off the ground they were all considered Delaney's Red's or Dublin Red's and down from Brindle Devil, my uncle didn't like this at all because there were dogs being associated to him and his bloodlines which were nothing compared to what my uncle was showing or badgering with... so it was a bitter sweet situation.

    So to sum it up in a nutshell.....This will give you a real good idea to the Dublin Red line and how it all came about, it's a dog that was produced from breeding from Stafford's that were all shapes and sizes with the key and main ingredient.... must be carrying the Brindle Devil or any of his sons.... one son of Brindle Devil was given to one of my uncles best friends Tony Lee, another man with a great eye for a good dog.... my uncle gave him a dog called Saint also known as Satan, the dog was just a little to tall for the show ring, so my uncle gave him to Tony Lee, this dog was used quite heavily in the finglas Dublin area as a stud dog producing many great looking game Staffs... I have a photograph of myself as a kid with Saint/Satan I will post it here as soon as I dig it out of the photo pile.

    The progression of the Staff in Dublin over the years was that there were many great Staffs being produced and really all depended on what an individuals personal taste in dogs were.... if you were a person looking for a show Staffy then you would go to the fancy who were noted for showing their dogs, if you were the type of person who wanted a dog for it's gameness then you would seek out and go to the fancy who liked to fight their dogs...

    I would like to end this by saying...... a majority of the Dublin Staffy people that liked to show their dogs, kept to themselves and the same for the other side of the realm of breeders who liked to fight their dogs they also kept to their own.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Article by
    Ray Delaney
  4. Blanco

    Blanco Big Dog

    Was about to post the same as you nasher but you beat me to it;)
  5. shortbedder

    shortbedder Big Dog

    Good reading from all. The history is not any different than that of the APBT. The show folks went one way, and the workers went the other. Both groups search for that perfect blend that meets there needs.
  6. beanieman

    beanieman Banned

    Nice read nasher i have the same on my site but you added some other pics.
    I have a bit more about them but i still need to scan those documents.

    @ Blanco nice read, did not have that one yet;)
  7. nasher

    nasher Big Dog

    I did leave some out ;) I do like frazer as his head and eyes remind me of my brindle dog
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2010
  8. buk

    buk Big Dog

    thanks nasher thats some good info right there,ill have to read this a few times for this to sink in.

    blanco thanks to ill take in what you said to i really appreciate this.

    now being totally honest here i never really new much about these working dogs at all because i didnt think there are many about these days from the working staffords.all i have done is research and took interest with the game apbts.i thought and still think the workin staffords where very few and far between at this present time.but now i have this info i have become very interested in these dogs.are there still any pure dublin red dogs about from good stock that any you guys know of i would happily meet you people and sit down for a chat and learn as much as poss and really would like a dog bred from this blood
  9. beanieman

    beanieman Banned

    Got it ;).
    Yes frazer was nice, i do love those brindle's dogs.
  10. Ragingstorm

    Ragingstorm Big Dog

  11. beanieman

    beanieman Banned

    always nice to read, merci ;)
  12. ohpitbulls

    ohpitbulls CH Dog

    is there a breeder of this strain of staffs in the US
  13. Ragingstorm

    Ragingstorm Big Dog

    Yes Ray Delaney us situated in Texas

    Dublin Red Strain - Staffords

    He is originally from Ireland and is the best person to speak to if your interested in this particular line.
  14. johnny dark

    johnny dark Big Dog

    the dublin red strain came about when an old irish dogman many years ago found to strays bred them together and sold the pups to english men and called them dublin reds, lol
    the english men thought this was great and bought as many as he could breed and now many years later it is a bonafide strain of dogs in there eyes only, sorry but this is the truth and every longtime dogman in ireland knows it.:D
  15. oldtymer

    oldtymer Top Dog

    nasher the pic of frazer is not frazer thats a bitch mandy of dublin as she was known.

    Johnny you just burst a lot of folks bubbles :rolleyes: at the end of the day a few good dogs were bred out of these .
  16. buk

    buk Big Dog

    how doi get in contact with him.are there any actual dogs of this line about at all that is a good representation of this line.

    also how do these dogs compare to the physco line dogs are they as good as these lines or do these dublin red have some physco blood in them to.physco was a good producer right,are these dublin reds as good as the physco blood
  17. bandog billy

    bandog billy Big Dog

    You tell em johnny boy :D
  18. Ragingstorm

    Ragingstorm Big Dog

    Yes that is Mandy of Dublin.......I thought it was Frazer but someone showed me a side pic of her and she has no *boys bits* lol :)
  19. Ragingstorm

    Ragingstorm Big Dog

    If youre referring to Ray Delaney, them if you click on his site there is a contact page.
  20. johnny dark

    johnny dark Big Dog

    my brother has just started a new strain called the limerick blue strain and he wil be sure to have 25 pups a year so if anyone interested please get in touch asap , imsure a quick deposit wil give you pick off the liter:D
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