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Double breed and Triple breed question?

Discussion in 'APBT Bloodlines' started by bimbil, Nov 11, 2006.

  1. bimbil

    bimbil Big Dog

    I know what this looks like on a ped, but other than preserving the blood up close what is a disadvantage of these breedings? After you double breed or Triple is it best to than outcross after?

    What type of pups are generally produced from double and triple breeds? Thanks
  2. blackbeard

    blackbeard Big Dog

    This is like a double edged blade. You have to really know what you are doing, and this only comes with time and experience. Why? You can easily double up on undesireable characteristics just as likely as you can double up on desireable ones. So only the best specimens available should be considered for this type of inbreeding. Plus you must be familiar with the blood used so you can quickly detect any changes whether they are physical or behavioral. As far as the outcrossing goes it depends how tight they are and what you would like to add to them. This is a matter of taste, some people like them really tight and others not that tight. For me what I like to see on a ped is a certain stud being bred to different bitches(unrelated), then you breed him back to some of his daughters and some of the other daughters you breed to their half brothers(different mom) and you just take it from there(preferably all proven stock). Check out the ped of some well known dog and see how he came to be and what he was crossed with. You will eventually arrive to certain conclusions. Anyway just by looking at a ped you can see the work of the breeder. Did he stick to a certain method for a long time, or did he produce his bloodline just by breeding the same individuals over and over again. I wrote an article about 2 yrs ago here called Bolio 101 which is related to this topic. Hope this helped.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2006
    3 people like this.
  3. bimbil

    bimbil Big Dog

    Thank you for your post!

    Inbreeding is anything that you breed a dog back to a sister, mother, niece, etc? What's an example of linebreeding? Would it be breeding a stud to his grandchild (assuming the mother wasn't breed back to the stud that produced the grandchild)?

    Why would you want to triple breed something so tight? Isn't it a well known fact that would produce dogs with bad traits?
    1 person likes this.
  4. blackbeard

    blackbeard Big Dog

    Not the niece. Some people have different conceptions for the terms linebreeding and inbreeding. To me a good example of linebreeding would be Rocca's Stonewall. He is double-bred Honeybunch, or a double grandson of Honeybunch.They bred Otis to Honeybunch to get Gr Ch Snake and they bred Bo to Honeybunch to get Ch Missy(Jeep's sister). Keep in mind that Otis and Bo are unrelated. Then they bred Snake and Missy to get Stonewall. The fact that the only common ancestor is Honeybunch and there really isn't any inbreeding going on makes him a linebred Honeybunch dog. If you were to breed Stonewall to a bitch bred similarly to Stonewall but instead of having Otis and Bo would have Rascal and Oso Negro(Honeybunch was bred to them too) you would again be linebreeding on Honeybunch. When you start studying different pedigrees you''ll get the picture. As for why someone would want to triple breed I'd have to say , someone did it, had good results, so another one tried it. Others love how it looks on paper. It's also a selling point like for instance Ex. " I have the only quadruple son of Gr Ch Horses Ass alive''. Someone for some reason will want to breed to him. Public demand for something can lead to it's proliferation. Like I said before, I prefer a more diversified gene pool to breed from. To me it is unnecessary to get that tight, I mean how much better can the dogs be. If you breed game dogs you will get game dogs, the essence is already there. By heavily inbreeding on a certain dog doesn't make that dog come back to life or be replicated. I know one wants to preserve the desireable traits of a certain individual but I prefer to do it a different way. Keep in mind that there have also been a number of excellent scatterbred dogs. So, Nothing is set in stone. The only thing you can really count on is that if you breed 2 dogs you''ll get more dogs. That's why I like a happy medium like linebreeding, it is structured but more forgiving.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2006
  5. bimbil

    bimbil Big Dog

    Well said, thank you.
  6. Chef-Kergin

    Chef-Kergin Guest

    This is a pup I have. Would this be considered linebreeding or inbreeding (I'm assumin inbreeding, and dbl-bred, [and correct me if I'm wrong, which I probably am] b/c the sires on top are in twice?)?


    <table border="3" bordercolor="#999999" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2" width="90%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="4" width="100%">
    <center>Mott's Aubrey</center>
    Call Name: "Aubrey"
    Breed: APBT
    Sex: F
    Color: Red Brindle/Red Nose
    Birth date: 09/09/06

    Breeder: P. Mott
    Owner: D. Kerg
    </td></tr><tr><td width="25%">Parents</td><td width="25%">2nd Generation</td><td width="25%">3rd Generation</td><td width="25%">4th Generation</td></tr><tr><td rowspan="8" width="25%">Ch. Elliott's Red Devil</td><td rowspan="4" width="25%">Ch Elliott's Kain II</td><td rowspan="2" width="25%">Ch Culp's Royal Bull</td><td width="25%">Ch Culp's Dinomite Rocky</td></tr><tr><td width="25%">Kisner's Ms Bathsheba</td></tr><tr><td rowspan="2" width="25%">Culp's Red Ruby</td><td width="25%">Culp's Lumbee Jake</td></tr><tr><td width="25%">Antonio's Sandy</td></tr><tr><td rowspan="4" width="25%">Elliott's Taja</td><td rowspan="2" width="25%">Culp's Chief</td><td width="25%">Kisner's Golden Boy MR</td></tr><tr><td width="25%">Culp's Little Ruby</td></tr><tr><td rowspan="2" width="25%">Culp's Brittany</td><td width="25%">Ch Culp's Royal Bull</td></tr><tr><td width="25%">Culp's Red Ruby</td></tr><tr><td rowspan="8" width="25%">Elliott's Amber</td><td rowspan="4" width="25%">Ch Elliott's Red Devil</td><td rowspan="2" width="25%">Ch Elliott's Kain II</td><td width="25%">Ch Culp's Royal Bull</td></tr><tr><td width="25%">Culp's Red Ruby</td></tr><tr><td rowspan="2" width="25%">Elliott's Taja</td><td width="25%">Culp's Chief</td></tr><tr><td width="25%">Culp's Brittany</td></tr><tr><td rowspan="4" width="25%">Elliott's Layla</td><td rowspan="2" width="25%">Ch Camelot's Slim Shady</td><td width="25%">Ch Bodysnatcher's Rutkus ROM</td></tr><tr><td width="25%">Tallent's (Bodysatcher's) Bay Bay</td></tr><tr><td rowspan="2" width="25%">William's Mary</td><td width="25%">Ch Crenshaw's Gator ROM</td></tr><tr><td width="25%">William's Phoenix</td></tr><tr><td colspan="4" align="center" width="100%">
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2006
  7. blackbeard

    blackbeard Big Dog

    Father bred to daughter= inbreeding. By the way that William's Mary was a very good female.
  8. Chef-Kergin

    Chef-Kergin Guest

    thanks blackbeard.

    kudos to you.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2006
  9. jadedpitgirl

    jadedpitgirl Top Dog

    Sometimes, a good breeder will inbreed to find out what bad traits may lie within the bloodline. However, it must be said, a good breeder will also keep this litter until they reach adulthood and cull all the dogs who show bad traits. It must be said, inbreeding is a tool that every good breeder can employ to improve upon their own breeding program. It is a tool that no inexperienced person can take lightly. It should only be done by someone who knows what traits they are trying to keep and the ones they are trying to keep out.

    Linebreeding is done when you want to keep similair traits within a line. It is a little less complicated than the inbreeding, but should be used with care much the same. As blackbeard already stated, you can linebreed of off one particular dog by using different offspring from said dog.

    All-in-all, either inbreeding or linebreeding is something everyone should research before using.
    1 person likes this.
  10. Mott's APBT's

    Mott's APBT's Big Dog

    I believe very tight bred dogs are better used for brood purposes. Hes old so im trying to get his blood as tight as possible so that whens hes gone ill have something to work with. and yes williams' mary was a very good dog
  11. purplepig

    purplepig CH Dog

    AS to the question of when to outcross, I wouldnt say you needed to until the virility(sp) and energy of the dog goes down. You can inbreed so far to a point that no matter when you breed in the heat the breeding will produce one or two or no pups, then if you outcrossed, the...fertility would come back up. Inbreeding does bring the recessive genes to the forefront so that you can see exactly what you are passing on, and IMO, should only be employed with hard culling. But if done so, and you are honest with yourself about the dogs, you will end up with a superior dog. But it must be said, there is no sense in inbreeding mediocre dogs. You should keep searching till you find the blood/bitch/stud that is exceptional IYO, and then begin to inbreed off of that. Some breed best to best, no matter bloodline, some inbreed , some linebreed, I prefer and have found to incorperate best to best with inbreeding, and then hard culling. Some dogs have a higher inbred coeficient than say a brother and a sister(have more common genetically). In theory anyway. It is all still a gamble, nothing for sure in dogbreeding. But inbreeding and hard culling can make the odds in your favor!
  12. I would like to say this has been a good edicational post for me. I learned alot form this post. I,m giving positive feedback to the good informative replys.
  13. BoogiemanBlood

    BoogiemanBlood Premium Member Premium Member

    yes very good post
  14. yellaman420

    yellaman420 Big Dog

    Ive been doing a bunch of thinking on the reasons why the fertility rates drop so low once you begin to inbreed extensively. The only conclusion that I can think of is the combination of lethal genes which would be the inevitable result. These are genes that once paired together result in an embryonic death before the pup is even fully developed. The dead egg/embryo is then reabsorbed, so you dont get still borns only 2-3 pups. As far as inbreeding mediocre dogs, there was one ROM out there that was known as garbage, but has produced mad champions. He was also an inbred dog, so you could say that his producing qualities definitly outshown his own ability so the quality genes either skipped a generation or when combined with fresh genes allowed for good pairings of genes to result. Now I dont think that you should breed to non-performers or dogs that dont show what you want in your program, but if the dog is bred the way you want or comes from known performers and youve got the time and space, why not? A number of people also will breed a kick butt male to a cold or non-performer that carries the blood they want in the hope of, tightening up their genes. Why? Because the more homozygous pairs of genes you have, the closer you are to "what you see is what you get".

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