Cold Dogs=Good Producers?

Here's a question for those experienced dogman and women of this board. If we are ultimately breeding for gameness, why would one use a cold dog or a quitter for breeding stock. I ask this because of the mention of Bullyson in another thread. It was mentioned that he was a 1xl, and that he quit. Why then was he bred in the first place? I know he has produced many good, quality offspring, but what factors did he have to be bred? I have also heard of cold dogs being bred, how can these dogs produce good GAME stock? If a dog is not considered game, what factors would you consider to make he or she worthy of being bred?

 

I'm not a dogman but there could be a few reasons.
Some established dogmen/women occassionally breed unproven or cur dogs for various reasons. They may have great blood running through the dog and as a result they come to the conclusion that the dog may be a fluke and it may produce. The dog may have been accidentally bred and they kept the offspring just in case. There is no telling.

Regardless, unproven dogs have a MUCH higher chance of producing dogs that can't be proven.

 

A cold dog is not the same thing as a cur. I would not breed to a cur, And i would not breed a cold male however if i had a cold bitch that was bred out the ass and the right male to complement her I would do the breeding keep them all and take my chances. It has been done many times with great results. Im not saying its somthing I have done or somthing I would make a habit out of doing but under the right circumstances I believe I would, Thats only My opinion and Im sure others think differently but its all a crap shoot at the end of the day so......

 

In one word, a feeling. Kinda like a gambler. Lost one hand, and has a feeling that the next one will pay off big, so he doubles up. If it's blackjack, then if he has been counting cards, he has better odds. So, by knowing the grandparents, and the breeding to get to them, you have better odds of when to hold em, or fold em. Sometimes the eyes aint seein' what I want them to see, but I have this feelin' in my gut, and I usually go with it. It works when I pick pups, and as everyone knows, you cant use your eyes with pups, they change so much. I just use old intuition. Someone asked me once how I picked em, and I honestly couldnt tell them. It is just a 6th sense. The other brother said it best, "it's a crap shoot", just some numbers hit better for an individual than others. Someone else said that they had culled a whole bloodline that they had based their yard off of. I'd have to have spent quite a few years before I culled the lot,because through hard culling, not complete culling, you can turn a bad situation around, if you are honest with yourself about the dogs, and dont hesitate to cut the ones who dont work aloose!!
And never buy a dog from a gender bender!!

 

all dogs on a litter will not be hitters,,,, even if you breed the gamest two dog,,,some will still come out without the fire,,,,make a good breeder but thats it,,,if you don't use it for something then might as well cull it

 

Well to answer your question Bullyson had already produced some good dogs b4 he quit (plus his quiting is up for some debate)so it was not to hard for them to keep him and just brood him out. Now a cold dog is in no way the same as a cur. Not every dog is going to want to fight and if you like the blood you can either out cross it or tighten it up depending on the breeder. There have been many unproven (which is not the same thing as cold or cur) dogs shoot up the ROM and POR list and it is all a 50 50 chance. Oh yeah look at Gr.Ch. Zebo he was an amazing pit dog that failed miserably to produce what he was but his blood runs through many of the Eli bred dogs and some of his cold and cur offspring did mess around and produce some good foundation stock.

 

From cold dogs to curs, to even untested dogs, there will be times when these have been bred and they still are. Here is a funny way of looking how breeding dogs that are one of the above can yet have an impact on the dog game.

Ch. Jeep is based off of two curs; Finley's Bo, who quit to Vindicator, and Bullyson, who is supposedly Honeybunch's father going by papers, quit to his son, Benny Bob. So one of the greatest and gamest dogs of all times is son to a cur and grandson to one too. I guess one could say he took after his great mother, Honeybunch, but I'll let others speak on that for me.

Breeding these dogs are a gamble and you NEVER know what will be the results of any litter; no matter what either parent or descendants have done or achieved but of course chances are higher and better IMO when the consistency of game dogs are known starting from the parents and back in further generations.

 

hell I won't even talk to one not alone buy a dog from one. I would let one borrow my baseball bat up side the head about 50 times though.

 

The best I've heard it said is simply "dogs tend to produce the AVERAGE of their LINE". This is why hard-mouthed flukes, hardly ever reproduce themselves or anywhere similar. You dont get anywhere breeding for that one fluke dog, because when its dead and gone, your left with nothing to show for it. IMO the cornerstone of a successful breeder is percentages, and knowing how to consistently reproduce high percentages of gamedogs. Through consistent breeding of gamedogs, the idea is to increase the ability of the stock through each generation, while never losing gameness. You start with a solid foundation of game dogs, which produce the same,and breed certain, well-gifted, representatives of that line into eachother and cull your ass off hoping to improve the offsprings secondary skills.

Starting with a good family, and knowing that dogs produce the average of their line is a hell of start, as opposed to chasing monsters for a lifetime, but the majority of it is still within knowing your stock, what to cull, and hooking up what you think will click. Start with a solid foundation, continually work to solitify that foundation, and build upon it and you just may reach the top of the pyramid in time. Start with a shotty foundation, working with only hopes and dreams of getting to the top with one fluke chance, will most likely not only not take you higher, but cause the structure to topple down underneath you, while your waiting for your miracle to save you, who doesnt arrive. Leaving you bruised, battered, and weary with nothing to show for it but envy and spite for the guy who did it the hard, honest way.

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to 14rock again.

damnit. I tried bro. good answer. Noting like a good foundations of dogs so gritty that they bite their own legs off to rid them of fleas.
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Did I tell you about that dog, or are you speaking of no dog in particular. LOL!

 

whatcha talken bout I have him laying right here. His name was bart but now I call him bob. lol

 

Thank you for the answers. 14 Rock, much respect for you and the knowledge you have.

Purple Pig ~ Thanks for your outlook on this particular subject.

 

took the words out of my mouth GOOD POST! also, he passed after the match with benny bob so wasnt around to be bred after the debatable 1xl.

 

Clemmons wrote that bullyson was bred the day before the match,and a week before the show carver brought bullyson to a hospital where he(clemmons) worked as a Lab Tech to get bloodwork done and his hematocrit was 33% and his lips was stitched holding them to his gums,where he chewed tru a chain link fence.Red Wallings said he wasn't going to pay the forfit and he would take him to the match in a ambulance if he had to.The match lasted 47min. and carver picked him up,because he couldn't even stand to protect his self.The Autopsy on Bullyson showed that his kidneys were torn lose inside.

 

There are some cold dogs that dont fight back....I mean they ben attacked and just stand there while the attack.Honeybunch in her first roll for example.It needs one hell of conzentrationability(sorry lol ) to do so...much more then simply fight back.I think Honeybunch turned into a great producer.And later if she HAD to fight she showed some gameness.Ok I make it short...If you bred for gameness you bred for gameness and this has nothing to do with selection for aggressiveness.Out of game lines you will get high, middle and nearly non aggressive dogs...and cold dogs.And all of them can be deep game.So if you are able to switch the logic part of your brain on you will easily see what that means.Selection with the help of the fight will create a game bred....but not an all aggressive bred because gameness and aggressive behavior are two single things.

 

i woudnt breed a cur


the only way i would breed a cold dog is if it was the last of the line, other than that, no way. i also dont see any difference in breeding a cold female or cold male. some will breed cold females no problem but when it comes to studs it has to be a good one and definately not cold,i dont get that, cold = no good IMO.

 

honeybunch hadn't turned on yet,she was a monster when she finally did and no cold dog will fight back period!If one try to fight back and calls it quits it is just a cur, not cold

 

Ok...but whats your Point? Just curious.....and the cold dog that doesnt fight back....isnt he from game lines? And what if the other dog attacks non stop....the cold dog would not fight back? Maybe he would be eaten or what? Ok however aggressiveness and gameness are two differend things.Period.

 

thats right,a cold dog want fight back at all.And your right on that one the two have nothing to do with the other