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Breeding Practices

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by vellie, Jan 6, 2021.

  1. vellie

    vellie Big Dog

    I just got these to puppies and plan to breed them at some point.
    http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=738247

    http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=738244
    I got a question for breeders/handlers, do you study your pedigree to see what produces well throughout your line? Do you focus on breeding best to the best? Line or inbreed on those traits? Or is your pedigree composed of a lot of working battle crosses?
    My plan is to rebuild my yard around family breeding that cross well together.
    http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=738250 Hopefully improving the productivity of the line.
    ( I really hate when someone buys a pup from a breeder and use it or breeds it, have bad results then blame the breeder not themselves). Ya"ll know the term CUR BREEDER.
    What is your thoughts?
     
  2. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    You breed your stock long enough your doing it all line,inbred and cross. The dogs themselves will tell you how to breed them in theory and genetic principles are just that. At the end of the day the man behind the dogs is the biggest factor. Don't breed dogs from other folks eyes and hope for the best.
     
    Revelator, kasperian, david63 and 2 others like this.
  3. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    BB pretty much just summed it up.
     
    Revelator and corvettedex like this.
  4. vellie

    vellie Big Dog

    I know that everything evolves. I can remember having a table full of hand writing pedigrees and Stratton, Bobby hall, Rocca, Bob Stevens and Armitige Book and also the Coby Books. Just to learn why certain breeders breed there dogs a certain way. Listened to Mayfield tapes over and over. I talked to a lot of old timers, subscribe to the Sporting Dog, the Gazette, and read the Register of Merit. The days before Red Boy was the saver of all bloodlines. Two of my mentors Mr. Dave Miller and Town and County Terry once told me Red Boy dogs are game but will quit just like any other dog. They went on to say how they saw Teal's Jeff stand the line. Don't get me wrong I have owned Red Boy crosses: Nico, May Day, 357 and Mims Bloodlines. But before them my quest was to study old bloodlines that now seem to be extinct.
    Not long ago on Game Dog this thread would have created a debate on breeders and breedings. I would if the next generation of dog men have the knowledge or history of the bloodline we use today?
     
    stedz, San Siro and stickler like this.
  5. FrankDublin

    FrankDublin CH Dog

    I say the hardest breeding I think would be the first two or three breedings after that cull very hard with crossed fingers
     
  6. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    You can read all you want and you may even think you know the ‘secrets’ of the mostly nonsensical ramblings of an old don mayfield talking about some ‘purest family’ crap.
    The only way to breed dogs is to actually have an eye for dogs. The only way to have an eye for dogs is to actually watch them work. This is called knowledge and it’s hard earned. You cannot develop a trained eye by reading a Stratton or Bob Stevens book. You cannot develop a trained eye by shaping your pet for an ADBA pretty dog and cleavage contest. You cannot develop a trained eye by buying two expensive far away bred pups and breeding them together counting how many times Mayday and Buck appear in the 7th generation.
    You develop a trained eye by breaking the law and breaking hearts, it helps if your own heart gets broken a few times too.

    Btw, not a criticism of your post but a reminder to the youngsters who may stumble upon this someday
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
  7. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    Well bred dogs there, don’t get too hung up on pedigrees and don’t ever forget you are just one link in a long chain. Polock Jimmies line is used as a donkey, keep it in the rear view in my opinion. Don’t be afraid to go off your yard for a stud. The worst mistake you can make is to breed the wrong 2 dogs together that’s why I cringe when I see full brother sister breedings.
     
    CopperOFRN and corvettedex like this.
  8. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    The truth is sometimes a hard pill to swallow
     
    Revelator and corvettedex like this.
  9. vellie

    vellie Big Dog

    Ok You may not understand, I never mentioned Mayfield to promote a pure family breeding but to use his breeding plan as a model. As far as the books go how can you breed if you don't understand bred standards or how to hold on desired traits or to improve your stock without damaging the gene pool that you have already built. I will discuss more later from book knowledge and handling but first a little show and tell and breed form how many time mayday or buck is in the ped but a working knowledge of game breed dogs.

    http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=601529 Grandson of Mayday
    Made this breeding I owned sire and dam
    http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=114607
    http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=298828 stone city
    Made this breeding ended a 2x timer while pregnant
    http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=436752
    Made this stone city breeding to hold the gene pool of Nico Jr / Ms. Nico the only time stone city made this breeding
    http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=423929
    I had a lot of other breeding but I get mad thinking about it, because of some lying old white lady my yard got raid and I had to sell most of my stock of.
    Mayfield said you can increase the percentage of good dogs through breeding. the more you breed off one line you purify the line removing bad traits while increasing the good one. But Bob Stevens broke it down better
    1) you inbreed to close the gene pool ( brother and sister) this will show you the good and bad traits in your line that need improvement.
    2) After you find the better dog out of that litter, you start a Linebreeding program. This can take years, but done right you can breed many generation through this process.
    3) If need be outcross but try to find a similar line of proven stock so you don't take a step back.
    Then start the breeding plan al over, going back into your original line.
    Now since some has said not to read books to gain knowledge before you start your career as a dog man, I will introduce John P. Colby. His breeding's are behind a lot of our dogs pedigrees. Once said he bred on his yard 30 generations with only one outcross. Now think, if not for his stockpiling of strong genes some of the blood we use might not be a good or even exist. The standards for the Breed was modeled after his dog Gusto. Why is this important? You could breed dogs that constantly through dogs with a genetic defect such as Cochran's shorty cowboy we bowed legs. and Cardenas's Shorty he through dogs with a leg issue. the problem is a combat animal need a perfect conformation in my book to be conditioned properly. NOT TAKING AWAY FROM THE MERITS OF NEITHER OF THIS GREET PRODUCERS BUT JUST MAKING A POINT.
    Now back to Mayfield, His b breeding and knowledge is behind the success of many lines in use today. Tombstone/Bolio cross, Boyles Dirty Mary and her crosses, He even mention the Red bill blood that is behind Mim's Hard Tack /Flo blood, it is said Flo out produced Honeybunch. The Red Boy/Jocko cross everyone loves that is still producing a high level of quality dogs. Now to his price possession the nigger line of dogs. when crossed into Williams Satin Lady produce well but has since produce lesser quality because I think the people that got those dogs lack the knowledge of what made those bloodlines what they were .
    Ok, I it was said, you need to have an eye for dogs. but how can you develop an eye if you have no clue of what to look for if you have no knowledge of what to look for: "MAKE SENSE".
    This game is not only passed on through the history of the bred but a factor of science. Knowledge of breeding, conditioning and handling combat dogs is very essential to any dog man. this comment is a little of track but based on the response to this post some might to the next generation of dog men not to research keeps in books to gain knowledge so you know what you are doing.
    SHAME ON YOU GENTLEMEN FOR SAYING NOT TO READ BOOKS, DON'T YOU KNOW KNWEELDGE IS POWER AND IT'S GREAT TO LEARN.=))
     
    80BOWTIE likes this.
  10. stickler

    stickler Banned

    I don't think ben was telling not to read any books and don't take any knowledge from books at all. Reading books is good.
    I always did more or less just the opposite of what dogmen wrote in books :D
    Because they show most of the wrong things and breeding techniques which I don't need to see for myself.
    A good example is Bob Stevens :))
    I did not even read a quarter of his book because of all the bs in it :-?
    Every breeder who is telling about out-crossing in a book to make a dollar is, to me, a NO NO [-(
    I think you got some things right and questioning all those things is always a very good idea. You also mentioned Colby who only made one outcross in his time, which, I believe isn't completely true. He made mostly crosses in the beginning, that's why he was able to in- and line- bred for so long without any NEW crosses at all.
    Btw if his dogs would be really that heavy Irish Old Family bred as most think then the outcross he made would not really that much of an out-cross ;) Just saying :D
    Oh, and I like Don M.'s breeding 3 families theory ;):-?:> It's just making sense.
    Well, the way he did it then is probably another story, but it reads good :))

    As a breeder you know, or should know, what you want to see and want to get, and with this in mind you should be also able to get what you want. Or you are just not a good breeder ;):-?8-|
    But not every breeder is looking for the same things.
    I'm a fan of inbreeding, but bro x sis can be difficult and should only be done with 100% perfect dogs without any faults at all or you will experience a disaster sooner or later.
    And btw I'm no breeder at all, but think I would be a good one, of course :>\m/:D
    :-B
     
    Sleep likes this.
  11. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    All good points and impressive hounds vellie
    Books are great but they’re not flesh and blood
    To cut right to the bone what we are doing breeding game animals is breeding for will
    Which I think, in my experience, my observation, my opinion, comes mainly from the sire
    Sure the female can throw it but she gets it from her sire...
    Why do you think it’s called a Redboy Jocko cross or a Jeep Redboy cross??
    I’ve always said
    The male is the seed, the female is the soil
     
    david63, stickler and Sleep like this.
  12. chili

    chili Big Dog

    Ben, as you are much more experienced than I with these dogs, I greatly respect what you and many others on this board have to say.

    That being said, I would say they are called RBJ, jeep, (insert other famous males names here) dogs because a male can “contribute” to more litters in a lifetime (and even after death - frozen semen) than a female and therefore folks are more likely to refer to the male being used in the cross, especially when it’s a well known male who has achieved a certain 3 letter producer status (which is also more likely due to the potential of having way more offspring than female counterparts). Nature of the beast.

    as someone who breeds plants for a living, I must say that both the female and male genetics are the seed. the environment, exercise, care and nutrition you provide for the dog is the soil.

    now certain characteristics are passed down from each parent and it’s not as simple as we hope. Best to best is a good start but from my experience with plants, one can expect what 2 parents might throw but you’ll never know until the offspring is produced and tested.

    lastly, I find genetics to be like puzzle pieces in a sense that some fit perfectly together, complementing one another, straight up synergy while others don’t mix quite as well, like oil and water if you will. The goal as a breeder, is to find the synergy, select the best expression from that synergy and continue to improve upon said synergy.
     
    corvettedex, Sleep, Jay87 and 5 others like this.
  13. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    That's a phenomenally well articulated post. I don't breed plants but I tend to lean toward your way of thinking. Some good valid points in this thread.
     
    Mrgame and david63 like this.
  14. reddirt redneck

    reddirt redneck Big Dog

    If it comes to the dam from her sire, logic & science dictate he gets it from his dam.. just like game fowl, if the male is doing it & you want more of him, you get it from his sisters or mom, not him.. Dogs are a lot the same, humans are the same, hence certain disease & genetic issues, from mother to son.. You Have to have just as good as a bitch or better..You cant plan everything on the male. If you do, your get will be ok, if you base off of both or gear towards a bitch, you get better than ok.. As far as the name, how many say Shady lady dogs? I see it all the time, or guys who breed on HB & not Jeep.. they dont always call them Jeep dogs..
     
    david63 likes this.
  15. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I'm a Mims fan at heart and can be a little biased.

    We had the most success with that family of dogs by breeding away from them and then back to them. In and out and in and out. If the pups work out and you make the breeding mentioned take the very best females and go back to the Mims family.

    Your first breeding will could be a high percentage performance litter as it will look borderline scatter bred on paper. When you select traits and go back to the Mims family you will retain the talent and ability at a fairly high percentage but you will increase the percentage of game dogs. From there you can go back to another family or the same one, and then back to the Mims.

    You can make that last pretty much forever.

    S
     
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  16. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Very true and well said. Any line can be made better thru selection. And at the same time most every line has one strain ruined thru selection.

    Select from what you see from the dog not what his papers say he/she should be.

    And the very worst mistake when breeding these dogs is letting the papers provide a pass.

    S




     
  17. magnoilaotis

    magnoilaotis Top Dog

    Amen to that. It should be about the two dogs in front of you first and foremost. Worry about how the pedigree lines up secondly. With all the faked pedigrees and not floating around, I wouldn't put as much emphasis on the paperwork as most do. I kind of chuckle when I hear people asking for peoples opinions on breedings based on pedigree or some combination bloodlines. I always want to reply back "If you are asking this question you do not need to breed those dogs".
     
    Aseelman likes this.
  18. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    Truthfully most folks can't even read a pedigree lmfao
     
  19. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Personally, I like to look way over to the right and then hope against hope I recreate 25 years ago.

    S




     
    reddirt redneck likes this.
  20. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. CH Dog

    It count big were you obtain your dog from in the 1st place. The man behind the dog. Bred for G.A.S producing even better dogs then the parents are must be the goal IMO. Have patience, common sense and give them a fair change as they truly deserve that as they are an creation of mankind.
     
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