black angel dogs

Before I go, I just wanted to share a couple of articles This was posted citing "The Pitbull Reporter"as the source, but since I dont have that one (if I do its stored away)readily available to verify;

Boudreaux's Eli - Clayton's Eli Jr.
BOUDREAUX' ELI (2XW)

Click picture to see pedigree

Eli was the product of the breeding efforts of Floyd B. He was heavily bred on Floyd's all time favorite dog Blind Billy. When Eli a 2xw was bred to Mr. B.'s Spook, another Blind Billy breed dog, the outcome was to change the sporting community forever.
Three famous names that come to mind from the Eli/Spook breeding are: Eli Jr., Bullyson, and a bitch named Brendy.
Eli Jr. was a fantastic 2xw himself and sire of one of the greatest dogs of all time, the 7xw Gr. Ch. Art. Art was unfortunately stolen and never recovered. Before Art was stolen the breeding's made with him produced a high percentage of quality game dogs and enough to make Art an 'ROM' producer. Just to imagine what Art could have produced if he wouldn't have been taken is enough to boggle the mind. Art had a litter brother who was an exceptionally talented dog in his own right, the 3xw Ch. Hurt.
Bullyson was a 2xw, 1xL and another fantastic producer. Bullyson's only loss was to one of his sons Benny Bob. Benny Bob subsequently lost to Jimmy Boots in a classic match. Bullyson's legend as a producer can be found in many dogs, but his most famous offspring has to be the 5xw Ch. Honeybunch, the all time leading 'ROM' bitch. Honeybunch subsequently produced the 4xw Ch. Jeep. Jeep now ranks as the number one 'ROM' dog to this day and literally deserves to be covered in a story alone. Other famous Bullyson offspring are Loposay's Buster 'ROM', and the ever so famous Midnight Cowboy.
Brendy when bred to her brother Eli Jr., produced P. Carver's Black Shine. Shine subsequently produced the legendary 8xw, 1xL Ch Rascal, Oso Negro a brother to Rascal, and the world famous P. Carver's Stomponato. Rascal when bred to Honeybunch produced the 3xw Polly, who in turn was bred to Jeep's father the 6xw, 1xL Ch. Bo 'ROM', thereby producing the great 7xw Gr. Ch. Outlaw. Another famous Eli bred dog was the 5xw Gr. Ch. Nigerino. Nigerino represents some of the purest Eli Jr. blood to be found today and is a highly respected bloodline in its own right.
The thing that makes the Eli dogs so popular is that they are powerfully built dogs with devastating mouths who consistently throw these traits into their offspring.
One of best crosses to be made with the Eli line was with the 'ROM' Snooty dog. Snooty was an extremely intelligent dog who added the highly desirable traits of pit intelligence and style. Eli dogs tended to be barnstorming dogs and this would lead to short-windiness. The Snooty cross corrected this problem without sacrificing the highly desirable Eli traits. Probably the best known dog from this cross was the 4xw Ch. Chinaman 'ROM'. Chinaman had it all and has subsequently produced a superior line of dogs. The Chinaman dogs consistently throw intelligent, powerful, game dogs with a lot of mouth, literally a complete package. These dogs are true fast lane quality and continue to make an ongoing impact in today's sporting era. It would be impossible to list all the quality dogs that came directly or indirectly from Eli Jr., Bullyson, or Brendy, because their impact on the sport continues on today. Their are literally hundreds of famous dogs who owe their success to the Eli line and its originator Floyd B. and it would take an archive of novels to list the accomplishments of them all.
This article much like the one about Red Boy only serves to scratch the surface of this famous breed.
- Mr. Jeep
Note: Another great line that has benefited extensively from the Eli line was the one that was created by Ronald Boyles. The Boyles line of dogs started from a Patrick bred bitch named Boyle's Dirty Mary ROM (aka Patrick's Orange Crush) crossed with some very rough Eli blood through Holland's Gr. Ch. Cherokee Chief ROM, who was off of Everett's Buck and Goodman's Mizu. Buck died in a kennel accident on Irish Jerry's yard with his Gr. Ch. Weehunt dog. Both dogs were lost. The Boyles line has since taken off in a big way, and is a very well respected.
CLAYTON'S ELI JR (2XW)

Click picture to see pedigree

and this one on Crenshaw and Jeep;


Garrett's CH. Jeep
Click pic to see pedigree

Click pic to see pedigree

Now that the formidable worth of Jeep has been established, we will go on to the greatest asset this dog ever possessed and that was his ability to reproduce a staggering figure of Champions, one Grand Champion and numerous one and two time winners. The conversation at many conventions always leads to great dogs and a dispute of which bloodline's are the best to utilize to get the highest percentage of game and winning dogs. I have often heard this one statement being passed when Jeep's name is brought up as to his high figure on the R.O.M. (Register Of Merit) list and that is, well look how many bitches Jeep was bred to create the amount of Champions he has sired. My answer to those dog men is this. Take three major pit dogs that are from outstanding bloodline's such as STP's Grand Champion Buck, six time winner, STP's Champion Toro and Burton's Grand Champion Hank, as these three were considered exceptional pit dogs and many utilized these three different bloods for the sole purpose of producing or establishing new lines from them. All three lived approximately to the same age which was ten years. Two were campaigned approximately the same time and died not to far apart, that being, Ch. Toro and Gr. Ch. Hank. Hank made his pit history prior to theirs, but was bred as many times as Jeep, if not more. Gr. Ch. Buck, probably second to Hank in the amount of his breeding's and Toro, who was bred to 23 different bitches during this period. The fact is all three of these great dogs combined together, produced about half the number of Champions as Jeep has. So common, sense will tell you how many champions doesn't hold water. In retrospect, dogs like Ch. Homer, Gr. Ch. Art, and Tombstone who was bred limited amounts of times and was still able to produce high quality dogs should also be considered. Certain dogs should be on the ROM list considering the number of times they have been bred, like: Jeep, Buck, Yellow, Frisco and Mayday to name a few.

Some of the crosses which are well known where Jeep created some great dogs and the blood seems to click the best with are Jeep/Red Boy and Jeep/Rascal.

Ch. Jeep was born in August 1976 on the yard of James Crenshaw, in the famous litter of Finley's Ch. Bo ROM to Crenshaw's Ch. Honeybunch ROM. That produced four champions. The most famous of the four was Ch. Jeep ROM. But there was also Crenshaw's (Super Gnat's) Ch. Charlie, who has been said to have been a better pit dog than Jeep. Ch. Missy who is seen in a lot of pedigrees today, and Swetman's Ch. Holly, who was said to be a terrible biter with lots of ability. This was a great litter that was made once, for reasons that I don't know.

James Crenshaw has stated publicly that he never liked Jeeps style personally, as Jeep was never a finisher in his eyes. This however severely contradicts Crenshaw's choice off dogs that he's personally based his yard on, as they were primarily off of Jeep, and crosses that he made with Ch. Rascal for the most part, and in later life he was well known for using Jeep/Red Boy dogs.

CH. Jeep is believed by many to be one of the best match dogs of his time.

Garrett's Ch. Jeep ROM defeated Pylant's Ch. Kato at 43 pounds in :28 minutes. Cooper's Weenie also at 43 pounds in :58 minutes. Stinson & Stepp's Black Dog, who was said to be a three time winner at 42 pounds in two hours and five minutes. And, for his fourth and final match we went into Ozzie Stevens' Ch. Homer, at 43 pounds and won in 3:45. This was one of those classic matches, that history is made from. Two great game dogs met, and only one could win. One created a legacy and the other a dynasty.

Garrett's Ch. Jeep ROM died in the fall of 1989.




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When i proved you wrong i didnt call you green or try to belittle you.. If that is what you want to do we can do that.. Im sure i can battle wits with you. You spoke about Jeep & Crenshaw as if you were a pure expert and talked about his breeding practices, all i did was inform that you were a little off.. So if we are going to discuss lets discuss unless you cant do so without calling someone a childish name like Green. I think that is disrespectful to any dogman even if they were knew because guess what at some time you just as I and any other person were what you call "Green"
 
First you say Floyd said she wasnt touched and then you say if anybody did something with Floyd they are idiots, but if she lived and died on his yard like you insinuated then he would know what became of her and if she was ever touched correct? Are you saying FB told you not to test your females and just to breed them?
 
Also yes i was told the Zebo x HB breeding was tried twice, the same man owned both dogs at the time and tried the breeding when one was done and she had pups, most of them died young because they froze to death as youngins.. But if you dont know who did the breeding or owned the dogs how would you know what happened to them? Did Floyd tell you what became of them?
 
So you say my info is hearsay, but everything you have said, you were told from a buddy that you known for whatever many years, isnt that hearsay as well? If you discredit something from me because i heard it from a friend but turn around and give credit to what you say because you heard it from "your" friend you are being hyprocritical.. Hearsay is hearsay regardless of who you want to believe or not.
 
I said he is from the Cajun i didnt say he was Floyd's kennel.. Everybody knows it was Floyd and his son, but that part of the country and land was also called Cajun Country.. Floyd is not the only person who reps the Cajun land.. Ducote also used the Cajun name..
 
You say Floyd's favorite dog was Blind Billy, are you saying that is what he told you? Or that is what you assume because he was the flagship animal? My favorite dog is a double bred grandson of Jeep, that dont make Jeep my favorite because he is the influence of my dog, the dog i picked is my favorite. Just as Boze could have been FB favorite dog and he talked about the dog and his greatness to many a person.. You say you talked to Clemmons, call him back and ask him if he bred to Eli because he was black.. Since you talked to him, that is what you previously said so call him and ask him.. Also Clemmons is the one who was given Spook by FB, so when he took her back and bred her that dont make her switch ownership just means that FB name is on the paperwork.. The facts are Clemmons bred the Eli Jr, Bullyson, Brendy litter.. He took his bitch and picked out the stud he wanted to breed her too..
 
You say people are stuck to their writing because its printed, that would be a green assumption. How many times have people changed what they have said in interviews, or wrote in the journal. People flip their opinions or remember something that they "supposedly" forgot at the orginal time.. You asked a question about Boze and were talking about all these other topics, now that you getting answers that you cant reply to, now the convo is no need.. I answered your question and also about Spook and then returned a question to you, maybe i should put it here again so you can see it. You said Floyd said anybody that would check spook would be an idiot, but if Floyd owned her all her life and did all those breedings with her then wouldnt he know if she ever got checked??
 
Floyd might be your hero but he isnt the hero to many and is a lot more to the man than what some folks wrote about the man who is their hereo.. If you have never dealt with the man personally then what do you really know about him? Have you ever personally dealt with him or know people who have dealt with him or been around him? There is many things to say about many people positive and negative. Sorry if me commenting about a man you believe to be a hero irritates you but that is of no effect to me.. Either you want to conversate or you dont..
 
If spook didnt quit, then i can admit I'm wrong and will say I apologize for stating she quit.. Like i said whether she did or didnt doesnt change anything about what she produced.. Jeep daddy quit so did Bullyson but that dont mean I wouldnt own anything with them in the ped because of that.. So let me say it again, "MY APOLOGIES FOR STATING THAT SPOOK QUIT."  If i can find an article lol, or get my friend to do an interview with a reliable source i will do so and until then my apology will stay put.
 
The Article i posted was PM'd to me saying it was interview with Floyd, it said from "the times" so im guessing the person retyped what was in the AGDT interview about what floyd said. I asked him to just respond or comment on this post but he doesnt want to get banned for arguing or having it turn ugly so i respect his position,. I dont get irritated easily or get upset so I could discuss or debate all day long as its respectful. the question was the first sentence and FB response was after it. Since you like books and you like reading, im sure you have "The Times" book which is fulll of interviews and it has Jerry's interview and you can read it to yourself than re-type to the board why he says he bred to Eli.. Please do so and dont ignore this please.
 
You say Scrub is listed as being off Scrub x Red and not candy, then you said you never heard Boze being off Candy. Eli was off Scrub x Candy.. I never questioned or said anything about who Boze was off who Scrub was off who Spook was off or who Eli was off so why are you bringing this topic up? You say you give me enough line to hand myself because i mention things but you stay going off topic.. Now if we are talking about what pedigrees and what is right that's a whole different ballgame because many people dont believe what FB says about Eli is bred as he is showed, many believe Eli is from Ch Crybaby x Little Cotton i think his name was.. Who is to say but thats another issue that is better off being buried..
 
Now as far as back to the thread and your last post, you say LG didnt work out in the East then came to the west.. Work out how? The dog was Cold.. Then you say "your buddy" (which is hearsay and you dont think convo's should go off hearsay it should be in print remember) told you that he was told Annie quit so he got rid of her, why didnt he put the gyp down if she was a cur? Hmmm, but he kept the son of a cur and loved him dearly. So now because he hyped up the Ch Black Angel dog it makes everything he says about him Golden..LOL, for the last year Ch Omar been the baddest thing to walk the planet in 20 years and yah yah this until he quit on top. So somebody hootin and hollerin about a dog means nothing besides that they appreciate the dog... I clearly stated one of my buddies, WENT into Both Ickis & Black Angel.. Beating Ickis and losing to Black Angel.. He was ahead of Black for 30 minutes before his dog gassed out and then he picked up because he didnt have the gas to win.. He stated Black Angel was a good dog but not this Super animal he was being hyped up to be. People have a way of hyping dogs if you dont know. He waited for B.A to call a # out for his 5th but they retired that good ol dog as he deserved it. I applaud them for not being greedy or taking a dog too far..  Then yhes we went to Crenshaw because "you" stated he bred his yard around Ch Bo. After correcting that we went to Spook, and when did i say Crenshaw told me anything about Spook? I never did. So that is a lie that you're making up. Then we went to Floyd, and i said Boze was FB fave or one of his favorites, you went into how it had to be Blind Billy because he was this and that and this dog was so many times Blind Billy so it had to be Blind Billy... So i posted an article question from FB interview when he said Boze was his best dog.. I tend to believe he like boze a lil more because one he raves about him, secondly becaue he bred the dog.. You might love one that someone gave you but let you breed raise school and then win with one, you will love that dog all the more because he truly is your own work..
 
So Happy Thanksgiving but that's a few days away you got time to respond one more time so please do this too good to leave unless you cant answer the questions and if you cant, then we know who did what with your rope..lol(Fun poke at you to make you respond)

 

The best threads are always off topic...lol

By the way Eli dogs are tough curs anyway (lmao that will get people going)

 

Crushbones I agree or how do you explain 3 of Jeep better producing sons Werdo, Abbe, Smiley who are inbred Jeep to daughter after him to his half sister..

Frisco who is inbred, his daddy Chinaman is a heavy Linebred Eli dog with Eli Jr and Bullyson there, bred him to a double bred Bolio bitch.. So that shows he was bred off inbred dogs..

Mayday - yes a crossed hound off inbreeding.. Yellow daddy is triple Redboy father daughter and mother miss jocko is double bred jocko who was bred to granddaughter of Redboy.. Then his mother Dolly was basically pure bred Bolio/Tombstone bitch.. So he was cross off inbred dogs.. Even the best crosses are off inbred or linebred dogs.. So Inbreeeing and linebreeding shows it's importance...

 

Lol this has been a good thread although it did fall out of track , but dam good!

 

Man you hit that right on the nail can't be said any better yes sir real talk

 

Can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.. I agree benthere those who use inbreeding that have hard culling practices are normally the only ones who continue to be successful.. I appreciate breeding programs who breed around litters and successful breedings not just one animal.. If it was one GrCh wit 10 curs you might not wanna inbreed on that but I will take the litter with 1 Ch 3 2x, 2 1xgl and no curs.. Seeing QoH, Jeep, Bullyson, Boomerang or Chinaman name 11x in 4 generations doesn't do nothing for me give me the one that has Queen in 3x but performs like the QoH or Chinaman or Jeep..

 

crenshaw never bred a son back to honeybunch because he was linebreeding off of her not inbreeding, and garret owned jeep and did those breedings, and honeybunch to bo was not all that good of a litter, the only good dog was jeep charlie and missy quit

 

Lol..I feel u benthere!...I said in the beginning of the form that inbreeding can be done buy by season dogmen!...shorty wasn't a box dog either but he was a damn good producer!!...I would not inbreed on a hound that's all ready tightly inbred as I kno u will lose certain traits however, I would inbreed to preserve the blood!...I do believe when u inbreed u get less sporting dogs....if u peep out shorty production everytime he was outcrossed his production was even better!..so I do believe in outcrossing but I also think line breeding can achieve the something!...I think tuggie had one of the best breeding programs on the face of this earth when he was alive (IMO)...he produced alot of great dogs!...now I wasn't their but I was told by ppl who were very close to tuggie that he stop 8 or 9 dogs from JC yard with one dog, in one day!!...they say Eli dogs are hard biting curs but u can give me a cur like that any day!..lol

 

Ch Holly was a bad bitch from that litter don't forget about her..

 

frisco was linebred chinaman dog, and as far as eli/carver being an actual cross well it depends what dogs because most of the carver dogs go back to the same stuff that eli does just through different dogs. and all those dogs you mentioned were then linebred around to produce there best offspring. linebred dogs are the way to go if you study the peds of some of the best breeders, such as tudor, floyd, colby, k wood, crenshaw etc they all linebred and inbred with the ocasional outcross, but i agree inbreding for three generations i would call bullshit to

 

I agree with Benthere, but there is a big difference in a breeder who is doing brother/sister and getting good result and alot of miles under his feet. Most of the time though unfortunately its 'young cats' trying to see how many times they can cram **ch super smakey mo smak** in 5 generations and how fast they can throw their money at the adba so they can hang it up on their wall and smile at it.

I think that goes for any breeding practice/program though.....

 

Frisco was the combination of Eli/carverXbolio/stabber He is actually more linebred bolio/stabber than Chinaman.... thats because he's inbred chinaman..... He produced alot of red blacknosed bolio type dogs.....

 

here you go spook never quit and jerry owned spook, brought her to be bred to eli instead, eli was already proven at that time spook was not. this comes from a man who is friends with both men and also from an interview floyd did, so why would floyd say one thing in an interview and change it now, and everyone gives the credit to jerry for bully jr, an brendy

 

some of the best combat dogs in history were linebred/inbred dogs, i would go as far to say they were better than the crossed ones, some of them are tornado, zebo, rascal, bullyson, eli jr, brendy, bb red, banjo, midnight cowboy, mountain man's homer, pedro, boze,yellow, bolio, butcherboy, huckleberry, gr ch bo, and many more.

 

I made a comment towards crush and talked about how the top dogs were bred.. Not sure where you felt I was dissecting your post.. I hear Bobby Peru was solid heard his comp wasn't I know Dynomite was also all around good dog and El Negro was game as all his shows went 2 hours.. I understand you can get show dogs from inbred linebred or scatterbred dogs.. I was pointing out that most crossed aren't all that scatterbred they are cross of inbred dogs then linebred.. I agreed with your prior post.. There are many men who take their inbred dogs and hunt.. What I think I can win with might just be a game plug to you or vice versa.. Far as breeding practices when you are breeding your own stock you need dogs that can produce dogs who produce dogs that can win as TG states... And I agree and most successful breeding programs have a linebreeding program installed Thats why their dogs are uniform and keep giving litter after litter.. Not saying it's 87% this dog just some linebreeding.. I like linebreeding around litters not just one dog.. I like litter %s as well..

 

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=338555

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=285321

Just showing a couple of examples...it can work just depends on the ppl that's behind the dogs!

 

el negro was a game plug...

 

Chivo was mentioned earlier about being an inbred dog. He was also bred to his sister, and then a daughter from that breeding was bred back to Chivo. This has to be on of the heaviest inbred litters of all time.

It's amazing that SB could win with such an inbred dog.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=74005