Apbt/ bulldog

..This may sound incredibly stupid, but im new to this and hopefully i can get some answers out of this, atleast im trying. So here it is, i have heard people refer to a pitbull or APBT and a bulldog as 2 different things. Almost as if a pitbull or APBT is a cur dog and a bulldog is the real deal. Could anyone clear this up for me?

 

Well I don't know but I always hear people call their APBT's "bulldogs". I think it is just another way dogmen refer to them.

 

yeah thats what i thought at first too.

 

same here when I first joined this forum, I was a tad bit confused as to why bulldogs were being mentioned more then apbt but I soon realized it's just another term like some people refer "pit bulls" "pits" "pitty". I use APBT that's exactly what they are bulldogs is what they are as well from a general sense :dogtongue:

 

Bulldog EDITION by R. Stratton


Bulldog is a magical name. It means different things to different people, but it is deep in our lexicon. There is the old saying that “such and such (like “sorry” or some excuse) is okay, but it doesn’t feed the bulldog.” Then there is the “Bulldog Edition” of the newspapers. This is normally the early morning edition, usually sent out on special occasions or for areas outside the municipality of the paper. Then there is “bulldog” used as an adjective, such as “Bulldog determination” and “Bulldog courage.” All of these are aspects of the breed we all know and love. Thomas Huxley was known as “Darwin’s Bulldog” because he was a fighter for Darwin’s then controversial theory of evolution, way back in the middle of the 19th century.

I occasionally peruse books on the APBT online, and I must confess I occasionally cannot resist looking at readers’ review of my books. One that I particularly liked was one by Erica because she made these comments about my Truth about the American Pit Bull Terrier, “I have around 65 dog books and I have loved reading since I was a little girl. This book is my favorite of all the books I’ve ever had (or borrowed from a library) in my entire life. I am ordering the three other books in the Stratton series because I am so happy with this one “One reason liked what she said was that this was merely a dog book, but it was her favorite book of all time. I should mention here parenthetically that many years ago two experts on dog books told me that mine were the best on any breed. I beamed. But one reason that the comment so tickled me was that these were books on the poor beleaguered APBT that were being called the best. It was that which made me so happy, although I am not so humble as to not take pride that my creations were being praised.

But back to Erica, she later breaks my heart by saying, “The only thing I don’t agree with in this book is that Stratton claims the APBT is the original Bulldog, when it is, in fact, a cross between the old time fighting Bulldog and local terriers.” And she seemed like such a lovely girl! But that is okay. She is allowed to disagree with me. Anyone is. Truth to tell, no one really knows whether the story is true or whether the APBT is basically the best representative of the Bulldog. But the fact is that I have studied the problem more than anyone. A possible exception might have been John P. Gordon. He was an authority on the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and as I recall, he was a British citizen. He was a great connoisseur of old art and artifacts of the breed. He was struck that the original Bulldog appeared to be very much like the modern APBT (or Staffordshire Bull Terrier). The only that kept him from pronouncing the breed the direct descendent of the Bulldog was the modern name of the breed. I wonder what he would have thought if he had known that the term “bulldog” was used as an informal name for the modern dogs, too, in this country and in places around the world.

There have been many people who pondered the idea of the modern APBT being a direct descendent and the best representative of the old time Bulldog. Long before the now recognized breed American Bulldog came about, one authority wanted to call our breed the American Pit Bulldog. Now, of course, there was already a rift among the fanciers, as some wanted the “pit” part out of our breed name, even with the Bull Terrier name. I should mention here that a very well known American Bulldog fancier once confided privately to me that we both knew which was the original Bulldog. And you can be sure that he didn’t mean the American Bulldog. But here I am not trying to stir up controversy. It is just that I have been around a long time, and I have seen many new breeds come. They are basically manufactured according to looks, and most of them end up as show dogs. I don’t mind that, but please spare me the ridiculous history about the breed having been the lap dogs of the ancient Pharaohs! (This is often the stock in the trade of the show dog histories, with very little evidence provided.) The idea that the original Bulldog was somehow hidden away all these years is on all fours with the typical fanciful history of so many show dogs.

The Oxford English Dictionary gives the first use of the word “bolddogge” as being used in a description of a butcher and his dog, used for capturing the bulls. The comments were not very complimentary about either the dog or the butcher, but I smile about the cultured city people of the time being judgmental about the people and the dogs who provided them with their meat. I was struck when I saw the word, and I wondered if the original term was not meant to mean “bull dog” but “bold dog.” After all, the dogs must have seemed very much unlike other dogs of the time, being unafraid of large and dangerous animals, such as bears and bulls, not to mention boars.

I recently watched a movie on DVD that I had seen many years ago, “A Man for all Seasons.” This was a story about a man of principle, Thomas More, who was executed in the end because he would not bend to the will of the interpretation desired by King Henry the Eighth. More was a man of culture and intellect, and he castigates one of his friends for not spending more time in the study of the principles of religion and government, rather than studying the pedigrees of his Bulldogs. That got my attention! Unfortunately, it was only a movie, so I could not use it for reference. But I am sure that there were Bulldogs back before the Elizabethan Era. But were they called “Bulldogs” or “Bold Dogs”? That is something else we can never know, but it’s fun to speculate about.

A mystery is how the name “bulldog” has stuck to our breed. It has been used for at least two centuries for our breed even if only in a very informal way. The great breeder William J. Lightner told me that his father had these dogs before the Civil War. It surprised me that the dogs were in the country so early, as that fact went against common written accounts. It surprised me even more that they were casually called “bulldogs,” even back in those times. I recall visitors to Bob Wallace’s residents being surprised about his “bulldogs,” commenting that they didn’t have the pushed-in noses of the Bulldogs with which they were familiar. Scholar though he was, Bob never questioned the common account of the origin of the Bull Terrier as being a cross between the old type Bulldog with some terrier. I suggest that the story is true but only for the Bull Terrier. If we go back and look at drawings that were done around 1890, we will see that the original Bull Terriers had the pushed-in (brachycephalic) noses, so the likelihood is that whatever terrier was used for the cross was mated with that type of Bulldog, the “fancy” type which was bred for appearance.

 

A comment that has stayed with me was made by a terrier breeder. He told me that all the crosses to the Bulldog (APBT) that he was aware of in this modern age were made to improve the Gameness of the terrier. Hence, it is very likely that there is a little Bulldog blood in many terrier breeds, but I think that it is quite unlikely that a cross between the old fighting Bulldog and a terrier produced our breed. I suspect that the old Bulldog is pretty much what our breed is. Obviously, there were two Bulldog breeds for a long time. Perhaps that is the reason that the names “fighting bulldog” and “Pit bulldog” were used to clarify what a breed was. Those terms, too, have persisted down through the years. The term “Bulldog revolver” was used for snub-nosed pistols that were popular among law enforcement (and gangsters) during the early part of the 20th century. Obviously, that term was inspired by snub-nosed bulldog.

As for terriers, they are ill defined. Although the Boston Terrier is called by that name, it is not included in the Terrier Group in show circles. The Boston people originally wanted to call their breed the “Boston Bull Terrier,” and it looked very similar to the show Bull Terriers of that time, but that name was forbidden to them. It is interesting to note, historically, that small Bulldogs were often called Terriers, for the Bulldog itself was considered a “hound,” a hunting dog that was forbidden to peasants. Terriers were generally small dogs that were used for ratting and other small vermin, and so they were not forbidden to the poor class of people.

In any case, it is our breed today that does all the work that the old-time Bulldog did, from hunting wild boar to catching rough stock for ranchers. And yes, they are the ones once used for fighting too, but such things are only whispered about these days. One reason the two Bulldogs were confused in the public mind in the middle of the 19th century was probably because the brachycephalic type still retained some fighting propensities. England made the breed the symbol of its country, even if they usually displayed the show type. But it had to be the original type that the public had in mind when Huxley was dubbed “Darwin’s Bulldog.”

The funny thing is, from my perspective, the show Bulldog, sometimes called the English Bulldog, is probably just as direct a descendant of the old original hunting and fighting Bulldogs as ours are. (If they are! Of course, my presumption is quite strong here!) The only difference is Selective Breeding. Ours, at least some of them, are still bred for performance, (hog hunting, cattle herding, weight pulling and the like) while the show Bulldog was and is bred for its odd, almost human appearance. The consequence is that the modern show Bulldog cannot do ANY of the work or sport of his ancient progenitors. Because of this difference, I had once hoped to reclaim the name “bulldog” for our breed. But perhaps it is more fitting that it be a little known fact and that it remain in controversy. The breed has always been controversial, and come to think of it, the best things in life usually seem to be!

Richard F. Stratton

 

Thanks a lot for that post. It was a good read and cleared things up for me.

 

Thanks naustroms, very good read.

 

Thanks naustroms, very good read. ( for some reason he double posted this one ...)

 

good read. thx for your post naustroms

 

You can usually tell the age and experience of the person by what they call their dogs. Most of the older people call them bulldogs. Later came the people who called them pit bulls. Then for a short while game dogs. The latest or youngest call them A.P.B.T.
They are all talking about the same dog.

 

The proper name of this breed should be said AmericanPit BullTerrier, NOT american pitbull terrier, or anything pitbull, These dogs are Bull Terriers, even though a GOOD Bull Terrier is called a BULLDOG, as in "now that a hellava BullDog" but he is talking about a Bull Terrier, a Fighting Bull Terrier, the word "pit" holds the meaning of the word Fighting when used in conjunction with the breeds name in a formal sense as in The American (pit) Bull Terrier...

JM2C

 

Wow good read naustroms. Also Bobby, it is interesting to think of it the way you said.

Americanpit bullterrier - interesting.

 

Their called Bulldogs because thats what they are !!! There are paintings that have these type of dogs in them dating back to the 1600's and earlier. Pit bulldog Was a term given to these dogs long before they hit the shores of the U.S.A. It comes from when the coal miners fought their dogs down in the coal pits , hence pit bulldog.

 

I don't know about yall but my dogs look more like this, than that drawing. I think that SOME lines/strains are "PURER" bulldog than not (the true heavy dibo dogs), and then i think that some lines (OFRN for one) are true Bull Terriers.

JM2C

 

That drawing and letter were sent by J.P. Colby and the Tudor he is talking about was the Earl of Tudor back in the 1600's, not the person Earl Tudor that we know of who had Dibo although Earl Tudor was a descendant of the Earl of Tudor.

 

i think its kinda personal preference like Power said...i'll call my dogs by many different names though... sometimes just bulldogs, sometimes pit bulldogs, sometimes APBT, sometimes pitbulls...(not often these days as everything is a pitbull with the media)
but there definately the same dogs no matter what i call them it doesnt change what they really are...i could call them a rat terrier but ya'll would all know by first glance what the god was bred for..

 

Gringo, I understand that, I understand that the True Bulldogs were smaller dogs 45lbs even (ref. Lion Fights in England the ended an era) I know that the "pure" bulldogs were matched against each other, but going on type now, Look at the dogs' heads, the head of the dog in the drawing has a very pronounced stop and looks just like Pit General's head, The head of the dog I posted with its longer mussel with very little stop and looks almost just like Chinaman's head...

My post wasn't to say what every dog really is, I think that some are really truly "pure" bulldogs just like the ones of 1600's while other strains are in fact true Bull Terriers... Each strain has different concentrations of bulldog to bull terrier ratio, BUT regardless of these ratio's the NAME of our Fighting Breed is a Bull Terrier breed with the word "pit" as a descriptive word to indicate its job and purpose of Fighting. Howard Henzeil referred to our Fighting Breed as Bull Terriers, and books like Sporting Bull Terrier is talking about our breed but using the word Sporting in place of "pit" or Fighting. This Breed by classification is a Bull Terrier breed.

 

Im happy i decided to make this thread, im getting some good information out of it. I had no idea it was that complicated(to me atleast, im new to this). So is the word pitbull, not correct?