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APBT= Bulldog or terrier

Discussion in 'APBT History' started by Bullyboi, Apr 27, 2006.

  1. makaz24

    makaz24 Big Dog

    whatever the percent is it has made the best dog created
     
  2. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    lol - got it Limey. You crack me up......Damn California Rasins, been out in the sun too long.
    Been better off makin wine!!lol I love haters too, actually feed off it.
    lol @ visiong - I like the new name u picked. Been called anything and everything so far, right?
     
  3. blanch

    blanch Big Dog

    I asked this question on here a while ago and someone came up with an interesting idea,that line-bred bull blooded terriers used in the rat pits which were very popular could of been crossed into bulldogs for a few reasons,they certainly would of been very agile and smaller than the bulldogs,not like the yappy baying terriers people would of used for digging or ratting on a farm.

    so that would make the resulting off spring 3/4 bulldog and if they were bred back to bulldogs then it would be more diluted.
     
  4. Limey kennels

    Limey kennels CH Dog

    Dont wory guys i do take my meds every day . never the less im actifly retired .il put my time in breeding and give people advise. as a breeding consulant.....
    One more thing its obvius that our dogs are having there bigger part of there foundation based on the bulldog another great deal are the varius terriers used and other dogs that where mikst in.. about Game terriers. one of my mentors ,Dirty Harry used to start young ones up on Patterdale terriers.
    he belived that they pound for pound where the hardest animals alive and defenatly game... back then i got one of these dogs tru a frind of mine . and gave it to my sister.
    the sire of this dog had been send in the wholle for fox about 60 times and 30 times on the Bager. the mother did something simulair the otyher way around. more on the badger
    these dogs where getting to hard my frind said.
    look at there faces and heads all busted up!!.
    He then said he was going to breed some cur blood in!!!.
    i said why the hell you whant to do that. he said then they wil protect there heads and faces more and back off when needed. in the holle!!!!! and they will last longer........ how about that huh ........
     
  5. bluedoglover

    bluedoglover Top Dog

    hate to bump this, but historical records tell us that our pit bull types are primarily 25%-50% bulldog. most were 1/4 bulldog because the half and half was too bull. the gameness of the old bulldog didn't fade after two crosses. the trusty strain came from a half and half. the paddington dogs probably had some mastiff. but most were quarter bred dogs
     
  6. mixed-grill

    mixed-grill Big Dog

    The Trusty strain???...so who was Trusty's Sire & Dam...and what dogs did he produce??
     
  7. bluedoglover

    bluedoglover Top Dog

    the records are not well documented. his dam was reported to be a bulldog and his sire a rough haired terrier according to the records i found one of his descendants fought at westminster pit. one of his fights was at 19 pounds vs another dog of the same weight and he went on to win around nine mor that same night. of course he died in the end from exertion. a real waste. he was one of the last trusty dogs. the other strains I've found in my research are these:
    blue polls (just a different strain not breed.)
    the paddington strain was known for producing killers of large size and power. they probably had some mastiff in the mix.
    nottingham bred dogs, could only find two dogs, but they were supposedly good.
    a nameless strain i refer to as the dustman strain (as they produced dustman). they were bred to be 50/50 with a badger. i assume to give a good show as blue polls were a bit overkill due to their size and good mouth.

    if you want to know more just ask. i have a computer full of records (bull type beating spanish mastiff 40 lb. vs 140 lb., fight records at westminster, etc.).
     
  8. mixed-grill

    mixed-grill Big Dog

    Thanks for the information...But most of it in regards to Trusty is WRONG...i spent a lot of time reading/researching about the boxer Jem Belcher and those involved with him and Trusty...Camelford,Barclay and Mellish ect...and i can tell you without a doubt that Dustman and Trusty are the SAME dog...just check out the portraits of the artist Benjamin Marshall who painted the portrait of Dustman and Belcher and Trusty...its clearly the same dog...he also painted portraits of Colonel Henry Mellish's race hourses and dogs...so you know his images are accurate...no way would a successful race horse and gamedog breeder like Mellish breed cross bred curs as you have described...what is your source for the info on Trusty's sire&Dam...even from a painting you can see he's in no way a cross of a rough haired terrier...he looks identical to the modern APBT...and disregard the picture of Trusty that was in the sporting magazine of the day and always gets put on the net...as that is not the picture that hung in the Holburn Castle Tavern and captain Barclays mansion...its clearly little more than a cheap cartoon...Marshall's are the true likeness...and he was a 43XW...not 100 as often reported...Dustman/Dusty/Trusty was the top match dog in his day...and NOT just a badger dog!
     
  9. bluedoglover

    bluedoglover Top Dog


    ahh. i have been waiting for someone to notice this. i have often pondered why the two look nearly identical in those paintings. you sir have an excellent eye. i wrote these notes a year ago.


    pretty crappy i know. spent a whole day finding more details. so let me put it in a timeline sense.

    pre-1803- belcher is bred by H. Mellish Esq. and is noted as already being celebrated.
    autumn 1803- camelford purchases trusty for 84 guineas.
    1803-1804- camelford fights the dog on multiple occasions and parades him around.
    sometime in between- camelford presents the dog to james
    1804- camelford dies
    sometime after this- james then gave the the dog to captain barclay of of urin scotland who changed the dog’s name to trusty. that is where belcher resided from then on. he then went on to fight fifty pitched matches for a large amount of money. his last match was with mr.marsden’s dog of tottenham court road. that match was was set at 50 guineas. belcher was soon retired after his 104th match as captain barclay considered him too valuable to lose no matter how unlikely.
    by 1930- there was a trusty strain that was dying out.

    it's pretty damn complicated. now to answer your other questions. :)



    they don't look alike at all.dustman is a long legged, lean, quarter bred bull and terrier with no scars and a pied coat. trusty was a short legged, thick set, fawn coloured dog with closely cropped ears and a broad blunt muzzle covered in large black and white scars . he was also shown to have considerable lay-back as well. the possibility that belcher had owned both at one point in his lifetime isn't impossible. every sporting man had owned a good dog back then. plus the commissioner of the art never specified the dog with him, that was something a museum suggested right?

    but he never stated the dog in the photos name.

    first, what other dogs has mellish bred? i'm interested in knowing anymore about them!

    second, cross bred curs? what? bulldog terrier crosses are what created all of the true game breeds today. not only that, but it was common knowledge that they were better in the pit than pure bulldogs, and more entertaining too.


    i'll try and find it.
    first, you can't see the cross in that dog? here look at these.

    Antique DOG Print 1803 Terrier DOG Breeds BY Reinagle Going TO Ground | eBay

    http://prints.encore-editions.com/500/0/the-bulldog-by-philip-reinagle-in-1803-sportsman-s-cabinet-an-engraving-reproduction.jpg

    second, assuming which one is which based on size but i can't say for sure.


    actually his fur is slightly rough and he has feathering on the tail. plus historians insist the the bulldog's short haired gene was a dominant one. his ears are also thickly furred as well.

    no he does not!

    compare

    trusty

    [​IMG]

    vs chinaman
    [​IMG]

    similar? yup! same. no. if anything trusty more resembles a staffy.

    what is the picture then? can you please show it to me?

    if you mean this one in the tavern:
    [​IMG]
    looks eerily similar to the one in the magazine

    can you prove this? I've heard 50-104 but not 43?

    yes. yes he was. Sporting Magazine - Google Books
    and why on earth would barclay sell trusty? with what he was worth? according to this: Boxiana: From the days of the renowned Broughton and Slack, to the ... - Pierce Egan - Google Books barclay had trusty when the dog died.
     
  10. mixed-grill

    mixed-grill Big Dog

    Good talking with you...your 'timeline' seems to be correct up to the point Camelford buys the dog (Mellish lost a fortune gambling and was broke haveing to sell the family seat at Blyth nottinghamshire)...he changes the name to Belcher when he gifts it to Jem...this is a backhanded compliment as he was never a supporter or backer of Jems...Camelford was an unstable unpredictable man who loved being center of attention..(have you read his book 'the half mad lord'?)...Jem Belcher makes a come-back to the prize ring after losing the sight in one eye...(now heres the important bit)..he has to back himself for the second re-match with Tom Cribb...and in the process loses his pub (the jolly brewers) and also Trusty in a wager with Captain Barclay...Barclay retires the dog saying he will never fight again...and dies with barclay
    Now the picture of Trusty you have posted above is the cartoon i suggested you disregard of course it dont look like Chinaman...post up the two paintings by Benjamin Marshall...the one of Dustman and the portrait of Jem Belcher...its the same dog in both paintings (the image reversed in the belcher portrait)...Marshall was a portrait painter likeness of image was his trade...why would Belcher pay for a painting with a random dog in...clearly its the same dog...we both agree Dustman/Trusty was wellknown as a 'Celebrated pit dog'...but now you say a badger dog...maybe Mr Disney's dustman is a different dog.
    43XW...comes from a discription of the Castle tavern at the time Jem's brother Tom owned it...if you check out the paintings of the Castle by Robert Cruikshank...'the daffy club' and 'going to a fight'...you can just about make it out top lefthand corner of both paintings...what i have learned comes from years of reading books and visiting the locations connected with old days of the prize ring...im not that good with computers so if someone could post an image of the two paintings by Benjamin Marshall i would appreciate it
     
  11. mixed-grill

    mixed-grill Big Dog

    And just to add Bluedoglover...i agree that at some point there probably was a cross between Bull&Terrier of some kind...but by the time Trusty was winning matches the sport was a lot more refined and scientific...i dont belive for one minute the most celebrated pit dog of his era...was a rough cross
     
  12. mixed-grill

    mixed-grill Big Dog

    And forgot to say...it was Jem that changed the dogs name from Belcher to Trusty...not Barclay

    I'll shut up now...;)
     
  13. bluedoglover

    bluedoglover Top Dog

    good to know!


    ouch. where'd you find this info?



    hell yeah. dude was insane.


    interesting.... can i also get a source? i may have to redo my profile on this dog.

    i thought so.


    hmmm...the scars make me think that the dog may have been drawn from life though.. they look very detailed.
    and it looks like that 19th century descriptions of trusty. T. Pearce described him as “pug headed” (short muzzle, large skull, large eyes.), he had black and white scars on his body in various places. some state him as having bowed legs in addition too a body two times wider tham the average bull and terrier.

    well if jim had trusty as an insult, he probably wouldn't have cared much for the dog right. and remember there is a random dog in the picture with the bull terrier. plus, if you look closely the markings on the two dogs are different.


    because dustman
    was said to be a badger dog. but trusty was said to be a pit dog.

    they look almost identical.

    very impressive. respect dude.

    sure! i saved them both a while ago.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    cool! but do you have a source? and don't shut up, i respect your intellect. :)


    in 1806? even up to 1910 fighters were still going back to F1 crosses or quarter bred dogs. the hybrid vigor obtained was useful. plus trusty was a performance freak and one of the first renowned bull terriers. it's natural he'd be bred from.
     
  14. mixed-grill

    mixed-grill Big Dog

    Bluedoglover...thanks for posting those paintings...i have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that they show the same dog...i'd bet if you traced the outline of both dogs...they would fit each other perfectly...both painted by the same portrait painter...if you study Benjamin Marshall's painting you will see he was commissioned by Col Henry Mellish to paint many of his race horses and dogs...all the dogs have one thing in common cropped ears and tail...a sporting trim wasnt uncommon but with the half docked tail seems to be a bit of a Mellish trade mark...i'm not saying Camelford gave the dog to Jem Belcher as an insult...just his decision to change its name to Belcher...Jem then calls the dog Trusty...but what was its name before Camelford bought it?...when Jem was forced to retire due to losing the sight in one eye...a benefit was held for him...Camelford gives him the dog as a gift...this is done so Jem can stud the dog out as a pension...but i belive camelford just wanted to make himself look good in front of the fancy...the painting above of Jem is to portray him as a prosperous man about town with the valuable stud dog...thats why Marshall includes the pup in the picture...painters love a bit of symbolism...nothing is in his paintings by accident...the short life of Jem Belcher reads better than a Hollywood script...a game man with a game dog...Marshall's paintings of Trusty show me the shape and size of the Pit Bull Terrier hasnt changed that much in well over 200 years...i'd guess him around the 38lb mark ;)...all the best with your dogs
     
  15. ShakaZ

    ShakaZ CH Dog

    I thought terriers grabbed hold and shook whereas a bulldog grabbed and held. My dogs have always shook when they have something in their mouths:
     
  16. Lrs

    Lrs Big Dog

    A terrier is all about speed grab shake release as fast as possable before it fights back.
     
  17. bluedoglover

    bluedoglover Top Dog

    yeah pretty much but neither let's go if they're game for it.
     
  18. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    good research bluedoglover and mixedgrill, very interesting...
     
  19. bluedoglover

    bluedoglover Top Dog

    thanks. had another reply but computer deleted it. but in short, mixed grill, found another image of trusty that shows him as a fawn dog. i think they may have have been two different dogs after all as the dog in the picture with belcher was never confirmed to be trusty.


    edit: scratch that, i'll have time to reply later. but i should be able to reply later.
     
  20. bluedoglover

    bluedoglover Top Dog

    first though i wanna debunk what jessup said as her reason the apbt is not part terrier. not trying to bash, just correct.


    actually, they are fighters. they can be both...but so can patterdales. and the APBT shows many terrier characteristics such as button ears, prick ears, black and tan fur, scissor bite, dog aggression, the bite and shake, a longer muzzle, straight legs, etc.

    #1 a pit can go to ground, they just aren't the best at it.
    #2 neither do aid ales, irish, bull, and staffordshire bull terriers.
    #3 wait, wait, wait... so to be a terrier, it MUST be able to go to ground? seems kind of flawed as when bull and terriers were created most terriers were going after equally sized badgers or rat baiting...


    not all terriers have rough hair. in fact the old english, black and tan, and white terriers were smooth coated dogs and used in the original bulldog cross. and the old english bulldogs coat seems to have been a dominant trait. as for the straight front, comparison between terriers and a pit bull from Diane's site she says has a "decent" front.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    they all have straight fronts..... the only really different one is the manchester



    parson, fox, and jack russell terriers are normally pied. and the original bulldogs were never blue or black and tan.

    pit bulls can be small. the original bull terriers were alert and suspicious of strangers. some pit bulls still are. and plenty of pit bulls bark when excited, old english bulldogs didn't bark at all.

    if you cross a 45 pound dog with a 25 pound dog, chances are you'l have a medium sized dog.

    so are many terriers.

    terriers can be fawn.

    terriers do not snap. they shake. so do pit bulls. bulldogs did not. they were mentioned in the sporting magazine to cause less damage in an hour than a greyhound when attacking since they simply held and pinned, never shaking. they cause damage on hoofed animals that flung them around to get them off.

    the original bulldog was known for severely hurting strangers who trespassed but simply never made a noise.
     

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