APBT= Bulldog or terrier

so, are you trying to create a new breed or just use this breed and match up small sized breeding pairs? Doesn't sound much different than all the folks breeding 100 pound "pit bulls" to me, you're just going in the opposite direction. ya know, I don't much care what you do....if it's just to serve your own purposes and not leaving your yard, whatever floats your boat.

 

I;m glad this was brought back up,it's interesting.I dont know about the actualll percentage of bulldog/terier mix and not going to pretend I do,I will say however,That the statement that these dogs show very little terrier charactaristics couldn't be further than the truth,just my opinion on that.My very first dog of my own was a rat terrier and I can honestly say that little dog had just as much game as any bulldog.I am in no way saying she could've got the best of a bulldog ,but she damn sure would have fought to the death.When the rotties would get into it,She would jump right in the middle of it .That little dog was all heart ,which is one of the treasons i am so fond of terriers and pit-bull's.

 

I have to agree. At least about the type of APBT I prefer. My female in my signature IMO is much more terrier in looks and action than bulldog.

 

I believe your wrong in saying the original fighting bulldog was of pure blood and adding terrier blood would only make a great terrier. we are talking about the apbt and our foundation world beating pit dogs were that of bulldog/terrier mixes, it is the ratio of the mix that is the debate here.

 

Yes this is my deepest conviction. The real origin of our noble dogs was from unique cleanness. Created in the Indian-Persian space these real dogs came in the early Middle Ages with merchant ships to England .15-25 kg, mostly brindle or in beige or red, absolutely overriding fighters, like no other dog for the bull's catch suitable . Better fighters than the bigger mastiffs, more gameness, more quickness, more pound for pound of strength . Why? Because these dogs were hundreds of generations selected only in the direction of gameness. Probably about millenniums from the real old cultures. A sign of her origin is the fur length. You will find no short-haired dogs in England they have originated there. Greyhound? Wild dog. Pointer? Greyhound blood. The English dog have wiry or woolly hair. Think of the weather in England and you knows why. There are also no naked dogs on the North Pole. The oldest terrier races are wire-hairy, there are short-haired terrier races only since then them with Bulldogblut were improved . OK a last question ... how many woll or wire-hairy Bulldogs (APBTs)you have already seen?? Well if you have seen some .... they had for sure had terrier blood.

 

i don't know how much terrier blood the pitbulls of today have. but its not only bulldog and terrier... for example the scottish blue paul bullterrier which influenced the pitbull. but probably the most made irish and english lines. The closely inbred irish bull and terrier crosses, for example galtie, a dog of mr. colby which was bred of two irish dogs in america. Photo below... and english stafford type dogs. difficult question...

 

If you were a Bloodhound, now I would say:Good dog ... you have the track!

 

Traditional dogs = Mostly bulldog, if not tottaly.

Today's showdogs = I really don't want to know... as that kind of garbage called "olde buldogge" or "bullies"... all are useless, no way to be a bulldog... just fatty and funny dogs, nothing more.

(Jonas Klaus)
High Blood Bulldogs

 

One interesting thing is the first APBT's to import from UK and the base of the bred dogs brought Charlie Lloyd, Colby and etc were 30-35lb ... those are small dogs there compared to what the old bulldog was and probably is caused by the terrier blood since i dont think a 30lb dog could face a bull, cow or any big wild animal not on "bull baiting" but yes on other works where catch dogs (bulldogs) were needed.

 

My main question is... Why to cross a fighting dog with a terrier? It doesn't make sense in the pratic... to increase skills as speed, etc etc? No way, it can be worked in a natural selection, don't need to cross any kind of another animal... I really don't believe that traditional Pit Bulls have any kind of terrier blood, and if they REALLY HAVE TOO MUCH, this is certainly less than 20%...
just take a look in dogs as mayday, bolio, zebo, etc etc... never 50%-50%.

 

Terrier WAS a working dog, a tenacious, smart and skilled terrier would work hard on his task all day long, great stamina, agility and everything bulldog lacked.

You say take a look on Mayday,bolio,zebo and etc, i say go back to the source of breed with dogs imported from UK and you'll see 30-35lb dogs top with very much terrier look on them. Now if you think those 35lb dog were the ones used on bull baiting, catch and other task men used way back i dont think we are talkin about the same "bulldog"...

On one thing we agree, i dont see 50/50 but 20-30% and from this 10-15% affecting body structure/conformation rest helped more lon the terrier drive and tenacity that improved bulldog gameness.

Sometimes its like some of you think terrier dogs sucks lol, go look at patterdale/fell terriers working, those little dogs will never give up and have lots of drive, i cant see anything negative if this cross really happened, many things would make sense if you look back enough.

 

I see, but I still don't believe that... do you really think that all breeders made this crossing, or just a few as I suspect?

Pit Bulls are used in Apheganistan and in Cazakistan to kill bears, in Brazil and Argentina to kill javalis, in Cazakistan to kill heavy bulls... they are, as I said before, if not tottaly, much more than 50%... in this we agree.

 

look everything about this whole thread is nothin but guesses, none of us were around when the cross was created so there is no way to accurately determine how much bulldog and how much terrier was blended to create the apbt. One thing we do know is that bulldog and terrier were used to create this breed, and in my opinion thats all we need to know. Whatever percentage they used apparently they got it right because our apbt's are one of the only living creatures on earth that are game to the core and thats all that matters. Oh yea and there are plenty of other breeds that hunt bears and other large dangerous animals

 

Of course... I understood your point.

Thank you.

 

Have you ever seen a real terrier at work?Those dogs have crazy prey drive and sre most definitley game.And in my opinion the smartes dogs are terriers.Alot of traits that we see in pit bulls are also seen in most terriers.Many terriers are D.A..They are fast,agile inteligent,and determined,all the things we love about pit-bulls.If you ever have/had a terrier you would surely see the many of the same traits that you see in your Pit-bull.Just athought,I know many people ,when they here "terrier" automatically include most small dogs that are actaully "toys" and have nothing at all to do with terriers.We have many clients who call their poodles,shit tzu's ,pugs,and so on,terriers,simply becasue they're small as are most terriers.So maybe there is some confusion there .

 

Yes I knew many kinds of different terriers. My main question wasn't that, was "why to cross a full gameness combat dog with a terrier with no gameness?"... and I never saw or heard that terriers have gameness...

I still don't believe that the traditional Pit Bull, not show dogs, is a terrier, maybe yes, he can have some blood of some terriers... but not too much to classify him as a terrier... I think it's a wrong idea, but it's only my point of view... no one of my dogs are like any terrier in the pit .

Thanks for the answer.

 

Maybe to get smaller dogs for better speed or agilitie?People are always trying to improve upon everything,I really dont know too much about old bulldogs so i cant really say for sure why they would cross them as I dont know what traits neede improvment.All can really go by is what I do know about terriers and what I have see in my dogs.I cant really put my finger on it,but ,there is just something about a terrier that makes them different(maybe just a tiny bit better:o ),than other dogs.Of course that just my personal opinion and prefference ,and I dont expect everyone to agree ,but,I love terriers.I've been around many differnt breeds my life and although I love dogs ,It just seems to me that compared to a good terrier ,most other dogs are lacking in something,as I said before,I'm really not sure what that "something" is,but,I am sure I see it in my pit-bulls.You raelly dont see terriers as game?I wish you could a see dog like my rat terrrier,she was crazy,attacking our rottie's when they would fight,she would just jump in a try to punk both of them.If we had mice in the house she would sit silent outside the mouses hole(or whever it was hiding)for days waiting for it to come out ,then snatch it up in half a second.Sometimes she would be waiting so long we would have to pick her up and lock her outside to go to the bathroom or eat and the whole time she would be scratching at the door to get back in and wait for that mouse.It was crazy,but,anyway,I'm sorry getting off subject with that one.

 

Don't need to sorry , I really liked your post, we're here to learn, both of us I believe.

Well, we have a different oppinion in what the word "gameness" means, I think the gameness cannot be tested in any circumstances if not a fight, I think that the dog need to know hurt and know pain to prove be a real game dog, that could be against a dog, a hog, a bull, doesn't matter... but the animal need to FIGHT against the dog and not simple defend himself and get running. Of course that a huge hog is a formidable adversary...

but we know that a mice can't show real resistance in front of any tenacious terrier...

Did you understood what is my point?

 

I hear ya,i was just thinking of the game as not ever giving up ,not neccesarily in a fight,just a drive to keep going no matter what.Like my dog waiting for days,not eating or even wanting to go out to relieve herself,just to get the mouse because thats what she was breed to do and was going to do her job no matter what,just like APBT are bred to fight and ,thats their job and they will keep doing their job no matter what.Who knows,maybe theres a fine line betweeen gamness and obsession!LOL.

 

I'm pretty sure I've posted in this thread, but if not I'll make it short and sweet.

I don't buy the 50/50 hype surrounding the APBT. I think the APBT is mostly bulldog with a bit of terrier thrown in here and there.