Protection (bite) work

A VERY close friend of mine has been training for over 40 years, (for the state police, and for protection), and I know for sure, she has never used a whip.

She entices the dogs, but never with a whip.(didn't watch your video).

 

I'm with Seal on the "all the command work and none of the bit work". Also the other people, that this breed is not a good breed for this. Just amagin if a young puck stold or some how got a hold of a dog like this and to show his duds that it would be cool for the dog that he had could attack a person. I can see the head lines now. That would be another bashing the breed don't need. Leave this stuff to the ones that it was better suited for.

 

any dog can be trained for protection,,bite work,,the dogs don't run on emotion ,,to them its a game,,its command and its fun for the dog,,I think the training should be limited to the dogs personality and physical capabilities,,,my shepeherd is better then average at tracking,,thats what he does,,not a hard enough dog for bite work,,he can do bite work,,when he is fired up,,he can be very intimidating,,,,I could make him a hard dog,,don't want to..I have never used any kind of props,ie,whips,,sticks,,for anything,,not sure of the reasoning for it,,when a dog is in "watch em" mode,,the aggitater will hide his face behind is hands,,stomp his foot at the dog,,when these dogs are in this mode,,you can crack a whip,,light a fire cracker,,drive a truck over them,,they are not taking their eyes off this person,,its not about prey or the dog being mad,,I have seen very human aggressive dogs do very well with this,,its like the bully at school that is now in karate and knows when to use it and when to keep it to himself,,I think to many stupid people are training for bite work,,thinking they know what they are doing,,this I have seen,,not pretty.

 

I know many, many dogs that you could never teach bite work or protection to. I'm sure you could teach many dogs to bite sleeves and react in a protection type manner, but not properly and that is why these dogs go through the testing to see what their drive is and if they can handle it. It starts out as a game, but the reason these dogs are tested is because it is extremely stressful and many dogs should not be involved in this type of training otherwise you end up with animals that are damaged and insane.

Suki, maybe you can clear this up that from your friend that the dogs used have to have a certain mentality that is there from birth. You can not truly train any dog to do this. This is also true with dogs for the disabled, the breed these dogs, favoring certain breeds and out of many many litters and several tests only a handful are able to do the work. You should know this, not all the pits out of many litters are able to take hogs properly, no matter how well bred they are. Animals are indivduals and unique, genetics play a huge role as you all well know. There is a reason why pedigrees are valued and just because a dog has Jeep or Chinaman in his blood does not make him game. You would not expect a dog to take a hog (which is a game but is none the less stressful but way less stressful than protection work) just because Jeep was in his ped. isn't there a reason we game test? It's the same thing just a different line of work.

 

its of interest note that allthough there are simply fewer apbts that go through schutzhund compared to rotties and shepards, the apbts that have passed generally do much better than most of the traditional breeds..

this is a good example of how a true schutzhund apbt works..note the pictures of the attack part.. the dog is calm, waiting..not in a frenzy

http://www.apbtconformation.com/Schutzhund.htm

 

no training should be stressfull,,if the dog is having a bad time,, the owner would know this if they know their dog,,then the training is not being conducted the right way.

 

Absolutely. Schutzhund training for any breed requires a relatively high prey drive, as opposed to defense drive. A dog with a strong defense drive but poor prey drive won't make the cut.

Simply not true.

Actually, most cannot.

There is no such requirement that the dog watch its handler at all times. The dog need only be "happy, attentive, and close," with its right shoulder at the left knee. The dog in the video did tend to lag just a bit in the about-face, but really it was only barely noticeable, and the handler was partially to blame for his clumsy turns. An APBT just doesn't have the grace of a German Shepherd or Malinois. I still think he did a fantastic job.

 

Where did you get this info? I just feel that if you want a protection dog than you shouldn't fool around. Not that people should just be able to buy these animals like they do anyway, it's scary that just anyone can own one of these dogs and most of them are not properly trained. At least a hand gun can't get loose and run around the neighborhood. These dogs need constant monitoring and if you really want one, price and breed should not be a concern. The only dog that I knew of personally that proved he did his job right was a shephard imported from Germany the people who bought them were super rich and he pinned the neighbor's pit bull who went into the yard trying to save her mate (a ridgeback) who was pinned for wandering onto the property, the pit bull started with the shephard but he was so well trained he was able to pin her with only a small hustle until the owners got home. I knew of another shep that was sent away and came back insane. A pit bull that almost killed a woman (went after her throat) and who growled constantly. The owner bought him "trained" for his framing shop (big $). Also I had the liberty of assisting in euthanizing a few dogs who's owners tried to do the training themselves, it's sad. The worst was a Cane Corso who seriously, no joke, was not playing around and would have killed someone.

You should get some info from someone who is world famus in this line of work, they most definately do not train on prey drive it is defense drive. I know this from my obedience training certification booklets (which doesn't get too into it) and from all the teachings of Mr. Leerberg (world famus breeder/trainer) and because dobermans are my #1 favorite breed (sorry, pits are #2) and all the research I have done on this breed and the breeders I have talked to.

Here you go... everything you need to know http://leerburg.com/

 

if someone dosen't know what they are doing in any type of training,,the dog would be screwed up and not know what to do,,there is a whole lot to training then most ppl realize,,the prey drive comes in on tracking or narcotic searching. A simple test is done to judge prey drive. tracking dogs do need to have a strong prey drive,,the test isn't to see if they find what you send them to look for but if they give up on what they are looking for I don't do Shuntzhund stuff,,probably didn't spell it right,, any dog can be trained to bark at anyone on command,,to me this is the easiest,,bite work can be intense or not. The dog would be ruined if tracking is taught for the first time in cold and snow,,or if in narcotics search,,taught with maurijuana first,,there are lots of things that can go wrong,,that it why it is important to have someone who really knows what they are doing.

 

Oh, believe me, it's stressful for the dog, but I'll wager not nearly as stressful as it is for the handler.

I know this info because I worked my ass off for months going through the entire process with my own dog, who happens to be certified Class II, and from having a father who trained military dogs during the early '70's. A dog cannot get through this type of training on defense drive. It must have a high prey drive to succeed.
And I agree, there are improperly trained dogs out there, but I guarantee that none have made it through a single schutzhund trial, as the judges leave almost no room for error. The dog must be of perfect temperament to be able to even qualify for the training. If one shows to be a potential menace in any way shape or form, then it's over.

BTW here's a question your Mr Leerburg answered on his site:
QUESTION:

I have really enjoyed your videos on puppies 8wks to 8 mths and also Basic Dog Obedience. My puppy Shepherd is going great and really learning a lot. I read your articles on bite training. My puppy is very playful with my family and the neighbors kids. But he is very aggressive when it comes to tug of war and ball etc. He will go after a ball like a wild animal and go through anything to get it. The question is what should I concentrate on his first year. I have a Schutzhund training field about 2 miles from my home and would really like to get involved in it. I don't want to over do it with him. Where should I draw the line as far as training goes for the first year?

Thanks,
Scott Fowler

ANSWER:

You should concentrate on socializing this pup and working on building his prey drive (which sounds like he has a lot of).

 

LOL,,yeah,,I guess in a trial with a judge it would be stressful,,that type of training is very intense,Is it stressfull because your training in a relatively short amount of time? ,not much obedience in tracking and the stuff I do,,I do put basic stuff on them,,just cause I want them to start out good dogs. I have seen dogs get stressed because the owner wants the dog trained right now,,and fast training is very rough on a dog.

 

All though mosto f the techinques are out dated, check out a book called the Koehler Method of Guard Dog training.. Koehler was an Instructor for the US army K-9 Corps, chief trainer for Walt Disney Studios, and several Kennel clubs from the 40's through 70's. (book printed in 1976)

He gives some very good insight about what qualities to lok for in a dog, the types and levels of "protection" and such. He just doesnt tell you how to train, he explains legal aspects, (like not using a beware of dog sign) the pros and cons of natural guard vs trained attack and so forth, not to mention that even dogs in the sporting and toy breeds can be succesfull at guard /alarm work.

 

Something else from the Leerburg site:

Since Schutzhund is the demonstration of the dog's most desirable characteristics, dogs well trained in Schutzhund are usually excellent companions in the home.

The dog should be approachable, quietly standing its ground, showing confidence and a willingness to meet, overtures without itself necessarily making them. It should be fearless, but also good with children.
The dog should not be timid or react nervously to unusual sounds or sights. A dog that is overly aggressive because of its overall fears of people and events can be extremely dangerous. The Schutzhund sport is designed to identify and eliminate such dogs from breeding stock. Because Schutzhund training gives the owner a great deal of control over the dog, the owner is able to let the dog have more fun. Not only is Schutzhund training itself enjoyable for the dog, but the Schutzhund trained dog knows how to please its owners, creating a stronger bond between dog and owners.

 

good post.....

 

Nice bite on that dog.

I'm not saying that prey drive is not important, but they are tested for defense drive before allowing the protection segiment, they must have that, Leerburg will have info on that. They would have to have both in order to get any titles (tracking). Congrads on the Schutzhund III title.

I do not mean that I ever thought Schutzhund dogs are not good in families, I plan on participating in the sport in the future and have two little kids, I think they are wonderful pets and like the statement before they are very "clued in" and close to the owners. I was referring to the actual hard-core protection trained dogs. Even then there are dogs that still are great with families, but apparently, from what I have heard and read MANY are not. The video I showed a link for as an example. It is such a scary and delicate thing to teach a dog to straight out attack someone with such force.

Koehler has an amazing and undeniable repuation and is able to train dogs FAST, but I don't like him, he is nuts. In my opinion, I would not use many of his methods. He actually recommends beating your dog in one of his books and putting a cat in an electrified cage (fine to shock a dog, but poor cat!) He does the job but you can get results by other means, he is just a bit too odd for me. I never read the protection book by him, so I don't know what he says.

 

The APBT is and can be very competitive in the protection rings-but training must start young and they are naturally a shallow biter. The video post was amatuer at best and decoy work horrible. There is an Admin on this site I've known for almost 10 years and very knowledgeable in the protection aspects of working these dogs hopefully he'll comment, doubt it though. If someone is wanting to start working with there dogs in protection sport they should seek professional help and not some Joe Blow down the street. If wanting to truly be competitive seek a herder instead of a APBT

 

The whole thing about traing a pit for protection is not right, sends out the wrong message to those that already give this breed a bad name.

 

Personally I don't waste time worrying about bad image. Just having a pit bull is a bad image for someone to a lot of people. Letting my dogs exercise on a tire or on a treadmill is a bad image. The whole fighting in the pit from history is a bad image. People who are afraid of pit bulls will die still being afraid from their own ignorance.

If trained by the right people in the right way let the dog excel and be happy staying mentally and physically worked. This is a working breed and in this country this dogs very history is illegal so let them weight pull and do bite work, the dogs love it. German Shepards are well respected for k-9 training, their bravery, loyalty, intelligence, as any other breed who excels should be. Bad image is from many different ways and irresponsible owners and breeders.