painter type?

I agree with you, I just don’t think it’s right to outcross then say & sell as pure. They are recent breedings is the issue not breedings that were done 40+ years ago. Otherwise it would be pretty irrelevant in my opinion

 

Soze, want to take a stab at lineage?

 

Bamaman
I believe theres quite a few of those crosses in GA

 

Oh i dont denigh that mate!...bit Just because you do your best to sqeeze in a hole.dont mean you can actully fit down that same hole..Mate ive seen Collies try and get in.ive seen labs and hundreds of lurchers of verious type try to get to ground...many fox hounds will try to aswell.
i cant see how theres more terrier that meets the eye in these dogs?...im not saying theres is no terrier in them.im just saying they are not a terrier in the true sense of the word..
and it needs pointing out that whatever terrier blood was added.was added in like 1800.thats like 2020 years ago man..

They dont do the things what terriers do.
And drawing dogs can be anything..Lurchers,Wheatons, Collies even.just a big dog to face brock at the end so you can tail him without getting bit...yup i said it bro! Collies can draw (or hold him on the lamp)brock..
please dont think they cant...i was supprised my self about that one to be honest.

And another thing..badger holes are big..but even a small Bull finds it hard to get even half of its body in..i suppse you could dig the hole open a bit more for it to squeez down..but i could imagine the dog to not be able to even breath in such a tight place.i could see the dog getting wedged in a tube and suffocateing.or just getting its face ripped of because theres no room..
if there was more terrier in them why dont people use them as terriers?
not argueing btw here.descussion yes.
as im more then intrested on the terrier and bulldog thing.
as you can probably all tell lol..

even if they have got terrier in them..
they are still not a terrier type dog.
terriers are curs.that bark at a animal in a hole..Fells kill.but why do they kill?.
really now why are fells so game and will rip a fox to bits?because of the bull blood in them.thats why they so game.
terriers for centurys were crossed with bulls to put more courge in the terrier.stronger skulls.quicker at healing..terriers that were hard as iron were said to be like that because of pit dog blood..

 

Arrr sorry @ Lrs ^^^^^^^^

And @lisa im not sure what ya mean?,

 

Soze
Oh Jesus that was was a good rant! Actually no sarcasm! On my mobile everything seems to be in the wrong order. I’ll take a look on the laptop later. The black dog pictured, ok I’ll switch the question. To you what breed does the he look like, he’s a registered a dog

 

No need for sorry mate healthy discussion. And you came close mate before locators where brock or Tod was sitting was more guesswork so you dig down and widen the hole so the strong dog can get to work. And like you said terriers with bull blood stand out and vise versa how many hyper bulldogs do you see? More a terrier trait imo. Also some lines are barely 35lb and look like terriers on steroids lol it can be seen.

 

Soze
Re F1 Bandogge's
I have seen some very nice neo/Bull x's, I find that disposition & temperment wise though it can be very hit or miss. Dont let me for get to post a picture of an old school Neo I had a line on lol, nothing akin to the show Neo (However I can see that your biased & prejudice views on the Neo are validated lmao). Theres a few breeders still around that do decent Bandogge's of various crosses, MFB, ACK & Midgard. The Bull side is AB (TG lines, cant remember the other line, I'd have to dig), Sorrell dogs & Eddington's Whopper lines (now thats a whole other issue, using a Bandogge to "create" a Bandogge bit of an oxymoron in a sense lol).

The "loon" that I believe you are referring to that initialized (at least on paper) the Bull & Terrier crosses was James Hinks with the Baiting Bulldogs & the white English Terrier, very interesting to see that historical progression then the reintroduction to the to american gamedog lines Bett's & Komosinski and so forth.

"Hound"
Redboy, I can see what "type" you are referring to & off the top of my head it could be throw back genes that were doubled up on, the Maloney & teal side are quite interesting Mayday shares some of the same lineage & I think has a similar type. I'll look at redboy's & Mayday's progeny to see what it's saying when i get a minute, peaked my interest. I can see the x to Hounds being done but definately not for rolling, more hunting comes to mind (might be a bamaman question? lol). Also I have noticed some Gamedog lines have an almost identicle pheno to that of a Patterdale & 20-35 lb average.

Old Stompanato
Yes the "American Mastiff" definately has apbt genes but i think the core common ancestors to both AB & Gamedog are Bulldogs pre victorian, which is where the typey old school dogs come in like Stomp, Pretty Boy, Jack The Ripper, Demon, even Pincher so on & so on.

 

Yep!!! ALL DAY

 

Katie didn’t breed Redboy. You would be surprised at what goes on the country... a good dog is gone get used, PERIOD!! Redboy dogs are hound nutty. I’m not talkin just bark at anything movin or anything. I’m talkin retarded on a daily basis. My partner had one that would piss on his food before he ate it. Everytime. Stupid game tho. Slim would know, ask him about em. There are hounds and hunting dogs that will take their death hunting too. I think Katie would have based her life on game dogs, not pedigrees. I’m just sharing my thought based on knowing what I know of competitors, dogs, country folk, and ppl in general. Just how I feel. I’m sure there have been other breeds added somewhere, not just terrier and bulldog

As far as Stompanato and Carver go. It’s Carver. How did a dog born from black dogs, down from black dogs come out predominately white?? On top of that he produced dog with a lot more white than those dogs are known for... if anything I don’t believe how he’s papered.

 

C
I don’t even know where to go with what you fellas have said about the retard gene in the redboy dogs lmao, Christ eh lol.

Im not exactly sure how colour genetics work but do know the basics. Both old Stomp & WSK’s Stomp have black parents. So it may be possible since there are various colourings throughout both dogs lineage. Might be a bit weird in the AB’s case if a breeder has had all white dogs with a few small patches of colour then say a solid black pops up

 

Piebald is the S loci

 

@lisa....Hinks most defintly was not the first "loon"to cross terrier and Bulldog..and the word"loon"maybe the wrong term on my behalf,as when we consider the amount of rats what were round back in them times,the word "loon"should perhaps be "genius".....
but this cross had happend long before Hinks was even born...as i said,im not saying crossing Bulldogs and Terriers never happend.as theres a lot of evidence to suggest it did.
i just dont belive the cross was made to make or "create"a pit fighting dog..i think fighting dogs, in the pits, exsited long,or quite sometime before the cross was made...the brown rat invaded and had colonised all parts of England,Ireland,Wales,Scotland by the end of the 1700s.i think the brown rat most defintly influenced the crossing of pit bred Bulldogs with sudri terriers.
i get laughd at for saying this sometimes.but please consider that killing piles of rats in a pit or encloser is not the same as killing rats around a barn or farm with a pack of dogs and people with sticks.calling on a dog to kill a ton of rats in a pit is a totally diffrent ball game.no terriers are capeable of killing huge piles of rats in a situation like that.no matter what people say.so the sundri terriers of the time were crossd with the pit bred Bulldogs of the time....and from there on we loose track of werther the pit bred dogs are pure Bull or half,quarter or are just a blend of what was winning in the pits regardless werther they were bull, terrier or whatever..
we will never no.and none of us on this thread are right or wrong....its a great topic.and any thoughts are welcomed no matter how crazy,as a open mind is needed.

@slim and @lisa on this one.....
the pheno type of the APBT is most intresting indeed..diffrent lines, and even the same lines bred by diffrent people can look remarkably diffrent from one another..
next to the terrier breeds and next to the AmBull they must be the most un uniform type of dog there is.even the variation in litter mates can be quite shocking.im not saying theres no uniform lines out there that look like peas in a pod,because there clearly is..
but the over all variation of them is remarkeble i find..
i think this veriation is what causes a lot of us to say them ones look "terrierish" Mayday and Redboy look "houndish"...this one looks like its got Greyhound in it!,exc....
@slim do you honestly belive Redboy is part hound in some way?
Ide say he looks more Visla lol.

@c note ...a lot of dogs act retarded man.and not just Redboy ones mate..as im sure you no.
im imageing in more remote areas no one seemd to give a shit if the dog screams and acts up all day on its chain.
were as in more built up areas a quiter dog is more incourged perhaps?.a wilder acting beast in the wild country side and a calmer acting beast for the hot citys and towns...makes sense?.
Stopmando..errm?look ive seen white dogs come out of perents that was not white.they come out white quite simply because both perents carried white in there pedigree..yes he looks Bulldoggy..but hes not the only APBT who looks like that.Lisa might be quite write when she said something about Colbys Pincher,Stompando exc looking the way they look becuse of the Bulldog blood from pre Victorian times..now it seems a little far fetched that blood this far back could still show its self.but its actully not that far fetched when you consider how inbred the APBT actully is..they are so inbred on the whole that they are bound to throw every single genotype whats been in them for the last two hundred years or so...far fetched???oh yeah its far fetched.
but im in no doubt its true all the same..
@Lrs why do some of them look "terrierish"or you can see that influence?...think about it.terrier was crossed in hundreds of years ago so why do some of them look that way still now?.of inbreeding..the more you inbreed dogs the more youll dig there ansesters up..
wat was in some terriers when the first bull terrier cross was made folks???
hound.
maybe small greyhounds to.
So if the mongrel sundri terrier that was used in the old cross had some beagle and some greyhound blood..and with the amount of inbreeding that has been done in the last two hundred years.would that not explain why some APBTs today look "Houndy"?
also not all the old baiting dogs had rose ears and thin tails..some had thickish tails and had houndy or mastiffy ears..could that also be the reason some dogs look houndy?

Sorry to take the thread a little of topic with the bull and terrier garb.but it seems when you start looking at one breeds history other breeds atomaticlly get dragged into the descussion.

So back to the bigger mutts we were descussing first.
Lisa i no nothing about Banddogs or neo pits.lol...but it seems the first cross ones are all thats needed.i cant imagine why any one would try to stabelisze such a beast but good luck to them lol.why im not so sure?not every ones the same lol.and i wish anyone whos brave(crazy) enough to take up suck a task the best of luck.as it may be some task to pull of with out getting eaten lol.

You know the Fila and the AmBull,dispite there diffrent looks, have been developed for similare purposses,and both dogs are shocking in there resemblese to Mastiffs in England two -three hundred years ago.
i belive the Fila to have more of a background with Portuguese catch dogs were as the Ambull,and the Dogo for matter.may have more of a background with the Spanish and the Brittish catch dogs..
but either way regardless of origen,all these dogs are worthy of debate as they remain quite simply put,just a huge mutt version of the old baiting dog or APBT.and they all seem to be used in a similare fashion..

As the world grows smaller this particulare group of dogs, that is;Brachycephalic.become more frownd on by man and become less acepteble in socity.
what a grate shame.as this set group is quite simpley more older then the Greyhound group.this particulare group of dogs has searved man kind down the ages through out the world over and is by far the most bravest group of dogs.people who breed and work any of them deserve respect.
now this group is a large group.but from this large group what breeds still exsist in there working form?
we mays well try and name them.
dont matter what other breeds are in them.werther some of these dogs are mutts or not.they all emptimo a set type.that is Brachephalic skulls.and they all hold there prey rather then bark or savege it.werther there prey be humans,other dogs,or animals form a garding or hunting or baiting prospective...
so what ones are left in there working forms?
start it of with the APBT.witch would be the smaller varietiy of this group.
the AmBull.
the Dogo.
the Filla.
the Tosa.
the African Boerboel.
the recently revived Spanish Alano.and the Ca De Bou from Majorca.(witch i belive are a succsess)
the Presa.
the Gull Terrs of India and Pakistan.
and the Bullkutas.
perhaps some Neos and Corsos are still worked to some degree?..but the likes of the Bullmastiff and Boxer and Dogue de Bordurex exc,exc...need no mention or no consideration from a working prospective no more.
Are they them all?
Have i missed any suvivours of this group?
Hancock belives there may well be more other breeds of this type that are unkown in centrel America..he even goes as far to list one..the Puerto Rican Sporting Mastiff.his book was wrote twenty years ago,but he says a professor Hector Romero is trying to revive the breed,saying his Spanish ancesters favord them as Boar holding dogs...
it would be intresting to no if this mans project was sucsesfull..

Sorry for the ramble....if ive missed any things out tough!lol.

All the best guys and gals.

 

Old school Neo

 

Playing catch up, ok quickly off the top of my head.....

Soze great read btw!
First I’m not mocking I’m laughing with you not at you, I have family in East Yorkshire so your accent that’s coming through in your terminology is reminiscent lol

Hinks I used as an example because there is physical proof off his lines to view as examples, highly doubt he was the originator of that cross. In regards to the early Bull, Terrier & Mastiffs all we really have to go on for phenotype is paintings & engravings with some written descriptions.

The black dog pictured above is a pure AB that’s been linebred off the pit/AB dogs, a bit deceiving in type don’t you think? To me that dog has absolutely no resemblance to a Mastiff. But there is on one side of the spectrum a heavy Mastiff type.
Also some people have put fairytales out in regards to the AB’s heritage in that I take it with a grain of salt but as you mentioned how is a dog throwing itself when so much time has gone by? Does it boil down to loose genetics & the genes gravitating to the tightest genes? Could be possible that when the apbt was in a heavy crossbred state the tightest genetics were pre Victorian Bulldog or Bull & Terrier? No idea we can only theorize but it does make for interesting conversations.

The Portuguese dogs the Cao De Sao Miguel you mean, I saw those in person on the island, very Bulldog disposition was really cool seeing them work!

I think you forgot the Gull Terr?

This is my short answer, getting the girlies ready for school lol

 

Bamaman

Here is an example of the WEB/Great Pyrenees x

 

Example of a Painter AB/WEB x note the dog is showing the prepotency of the Painter side