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Breeding for traits

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by RedRievera, Oct 2, 2017.

Page 7 of 10
  1. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I'm thankful that someone made the decision to keep breeding to Snooty.

    And agree seeing the dogs in the flesh together would make the conversation much easier, but that goes only so far as well.

    At the same show some saw Snooty quit and some saw him get stopped by a better dog. And some saw him quit/get stopped by the terrible condition (conditioning and over all health), pretty much meaning he would have quit/been stopped regardless of the other dog, good or bad.

    This leads to another thread where breeding game dogs or winning dogs or dogs with certain traits has zero to do with passing those traits on to the next generation. There is no correlation between performance and production.

    What breeding game dogs or talented dogs or pound for pound strong dogs does is nothing more than giving the breeder the warm fuzzies.

    I agree stacking all the good stuff in one pile and consistently selecting from that one pile puts the odds in favor of continuing that pile. But at the same time the one that was thrown out of the pile for not measuring up has the ability to re-produce the pile, sometimes maybe bettering the pile.

    Snooty went on to produce dogs that were much better than himself, pretty much to whatever family he was bred to, even the heavy bred Snooty dogs did well. The Snooty dogs were smart and most could bite, and most of all they were game (good percentages).

    Like mentioned before a friend of mine was in the hotel room with Snooty the night of and said he never had a chance. But at the same time he was standing on all fours. He said he was trash. He then had Middleton's Black Betty and said she would have never been bred to Snooty as he seen him as trash.

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=1527

    He would have repeated this breeding. (All those wins were not real and he has made an attempt to correct the peds but people keep posting them with 7 when it was actually 4, two he does not count and one he does not know where it even came from)

    But like he says even today, he would have not bred to the Snooty dog at all but in turn he saw a ton of Snooty dogs that he would have been proud to own, stand on top of and even breed to.

    So the pendulum swings both ways. Most of us try to stay on the inner arc where it is safe and repeatable. Some great thinkers are on the outer edge and do great things. Others swing to the other far side and just sell puppies. Both outer edges always swing back to the middle.

    There are two older guys near here, both out of the dogs now and in their 70's. Still to this day they will damn near fist fight over Mountain Man's Bandit. One said he quit rank. The other said he was stopped and was in shock. They were both standing pit side and both 'saw the same thing' but seen things completely different. 30+ years later neither have wavered on what they 'saw'.

    That in a nut shell is why the game has lasted and will continue to last. It is competition. And when there is competition there is also a competition to do things 'my way'. That makes things different. That makes people de-value one trait and over value another trait. That makes some people put all their eggs in one basket and some spread things out a bit. Some like a slat mill and some like a carpet mill. Some treasure mouth and some take their chances being there all night. Some like the home turf and some like to travel.

    If a guy learns feeding a dog 'corn flakes and cabbage' and he wins a bunch of matches regardless of the science and advances in canine nutrition you will be hard pressed to convince him that he needs to change from feeding 'corn flakes and cabbage'

    Breeding dogs no different. If a guy is winning with his method we can talk and type til the cows come home and it will be really close to banging our heads against the wall. The headaches is then the only accomplishment. LOL

    Great posts. Great reading.

    S
     
    slim12, Oct 22, 2019
    #121
    stedz, Soze the killer, SMD760 and 3 others like this.
  2. stickler

    stickler Banned

    I'm not talking about specific dogs , just talking about the system. It's not scatter bred at all. The idea about this 'breeding-style' can be seen in a dog bred like that.
    Well, the ped shows a performance breeding, no battle cross. It's kinda easy to see that those guy had a plan in mind to get what THEY were looking for.
    Molly Bee is NO outcross in this ped, but she was probably used as some type of an outcross. If nobody never really knew how game she was, but she was still something special, then it almost looks like they tried to get 'her quality' into the entire family they had. But still with the risk that they are breeding to a freak. And the 'best choice to fix it' was Snooty.
    They have tried to better the average of this family of dogs with a dog like Molly Bee. How or if it worked for them has to be answered by other guys than me. Slim ? The way Snooty is bred makes him compatible to most other dogs and families of dogs.
    Snooty x Molly Bee was more of a cross breeding. The next breeding, half bro to half sis, looks well thought of. Not just because of Snooty. Both bitches he was bred to can be called Eli bred or Eli type bred. Or like that. lol So, tight line breeding on top and loose line breeding on the bottom.
    I do not wanna call Snooty a cur. He quit, yes, but it's known that he also showed very good signs of being a good game dog. And he did produce very well.
    So, if Molly Bee should be bred then only to Snooty or one like him. Those Snooty/Eli dogs was the shit through the 80s and 90s.

    And if we see the ped as what it is, then I can say I'm not interested in these dogs anymore. But it's still a very nice bred dog.
    And I can not see a breeding of Molly Bee to Buck, Sandman or Homer ..., because that would just be some kind of gambling. That's not breeding like the other ped shows. MM's Homer probably would have been worth a try. But with a breeding like that I would expect for sure some freak type dogs. Well, I call this type of breeding 'Balkan-style'. lol And the breeder probably got 'deeper' info about Snooty, so ...
    A game dog with some ability ... Sandman ... ? Was Sandman bitten down by Buck for over 3 hours or was he just outsmarted by a truly game pitdog ?
    I would breed a hundred times to Snooty before I would even touch the Sandman dog. lol
    But it's just my opinion and you got yours. Still no problem.

    We most probably would even more agree if you would understand better what I say or what I'm trying to say.
    Again, just for you, I never ever said I don't care about ability and mouth. I just do not NEED to see it with every single dog, as long as it's still in the family.
    The disconnect could really be that some of you do not put that much value on gameness as I do. Possible.
    But sorry, that's not my fault. :D
    Or maybe it is, because the truth is also that I'm no big fan of, well, easy going things. I also do not need to see gameness every single time. But I just wanna see it at least one time.
    I'm just not happy with a win over a smaller one, or a bad or not so good one. Well, I would also be not that happy, if I would lose against that kind. lol
    Winning or losing against some of the better stuff simply gives me more satisfaction :-$
    It's kinda sad to me if I'm waiting in the corner at 0:30 and I hear from the other side 'it's over'. Damn, come on, just one more time, come on ! :(( And next the ref is asking 'did you hear that ?' Yes. lol What a sad day. Just thought I can get 45 min out of it gggrrrrrr ~X(
    I like game dogs and so I don't like those easy wins. No matter what people are telling, I just don't care.
    Of course, all of this is just (science) fiction.
     
    stickler, Oct 22, 2019
    #122
    Soze the killer and c_note like this.
  3. stickler

    stickler Banned

    :D Very well said @slim12
    The best part, of course, is about them 2 older gentlemen >:)
     
    stickler, Oct 22, 2019
    #123
  4. magnoilaotis

    magnoilaotis Top Dog

    I like this thread. It always gets interesting when when you enter the weeds and swamps of breeding. When first starting in dogs most go by the the standards taught. "never breed a cur", "The most important part of a pedigree is the first two dogs" and "garbage in garbage out". I think this advice is golden for some one starting out. You probably don't have the eye, knowledge or instinct to start veering of the beaten path. Most time if you do you probably end up walking right off a cliff.

    Then there is the flipside that can't be denied. Good performers and producers have been the result of a dog with less than desirable traits, pedigree etc being added to the mix. You talk dogs and pedigrees long enough someone will always be nice enough to point out the curs, cold or no talent dogs in your favorite line. I won't even open up the can of worms of false pedigrees, mystery parents or "real pedigree" that runs rampant. If you do your own quick study i bet you can find some trash in your dogs pedigree pretty quick. How is it possible to get good dogs like this. I don't know, but it happens more than most would like to admit. There is a grch Buck dog I see in the pedigrees of some high powered dogs that people who feed and handled him said you couldn't kick him out of the corner. This is just the first example that comes to mind, but there are more out there. That is an example of a cold dog. What about curs? They have produced also. I remember someone once quoting the man who had Deacon, Spanky and other top flight studs. The quote and explanation sent me soul searching and questioning what little i knew about dogs and breeding. The quote went something like "you got have a little bit of trash in there". It may have been shit and not trash, but you get the point. His reasoning was the cur's contribution would make the dog more conscious of getting hurt and would in turn cause them to bite harder and want to end things quicker. The explanation was probably better and more coherent than that, but you can kind of understand what he was getting at. This brought to mind of redboy dog from years ago. He would scratch all day, but once he got there it was all skin holds and laying around. His pedigree looked like a who's who of game dogs. His owner remarked that he had to be game to fight like that. This dog would be an example of when breeding for gameness has gone wrong. I shouldn't say wrong, maybe to the wrong extreme.

    Damn, I forgot where I was going with this. Probably off topic, but oh well. To the original topic of traits. Pick your most important traits and make sure the dogs you are putting together have these traits. Then if you are lucky the dogs they produce will consistantly display these traits and pass them along to the next generation. I personally feel dogs can display all the tools, but maybe the genes of some of these tools are not strong enough to pass on to the next generation. Maybe that is why the common knock on great performers is they never reproduced themselves. I don't know the answer or have a long record of breeding dogs to draw from. These are just thoughts that pop in my head whenever talk of breeding, traits etc comes up.
     
    magnoilaotis, Oct 22, 2019
    #124
    Mrgame, Soze the killer, stickler and 1 other person like this.
  5. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Was Hunter Red the game RB dog you mentioned ? Deacon and Hunter Red are always good enough for a nice talk. lol
     
    stickler, Oct 22, 2019
    #125
    Soze the killer likes this.
  6. Soze the killer

    Soze the killer CH Dog

    Im soaking all this up here folks....

    Some more please!
     
    Soze the killer, Oct 22, 2019
    #126
  7. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. CH Dog

    Breeding dogs is also a matter of feeling good about it, a matter of feeling it, difficult to explain, but if you like the dogs then it is also a matter of trusting your feelings.You can reason everything dead but if your feelings say something else go for it.
    And time will tell the rest.
     
    F.W.K., Oct 22, 2019
    #127
    kiwidogman, BronerFan, stickler and 3 others like this.
  8. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    These were litter mates off of the Bass Cat breeding.

    H' was hard on the dogs. True story. JR had zero mouth and zero ability. He got drug one night and for all intents and purposes he was no more. Since H was so boisterous and such a loud mouth the crowd took joy in him/his dog getting waxed. He yelled back up the stairs that he would cover any and all bets that said if JR stood up he would make scratch. The money was flying. He stood JR in the corner and he started forward, bounced off his chest and then his chin then used his back leg to push himself the last couple of feet.

    His brother brought the same to the table but with mouth and ability.

    He had another winning Red Boy dog down out of Fanny.

    Although there were some great Deacon dogs they did not click all that well around here. The few we had around here could bite but would not stay.

    Some years ago I had a litter mate this dog.....

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=324720

    I was going to use him to cross back into the Mims Snooty-Red Boy dogs. When he started school he was one of maybe the top 3 hardest biting dogs I have ever seen. Beyond freak level. With all that Red Boy packed in there with a mouth like he was worth his weight in gold.

    When the chips were laid out he packed it in, on top, and he was a walk away.

    Then a few months later we lost a handful of money to his half brother.

    But so it goes. (all made up fictional stories to keep the conversation going,)

    S



     
    slim12, Oct 22, 2019
    #128
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  9. stickler

    stickler Banned

    I got my own Little Jo story. lol

    I told ya all ... owning a game dog is much more fun ... :))

    Your story about them RB bros (there was probably more good dogs in the litter) sounds similar to the Deacon/HR story.
    R. Duprel bought HR as a 4 month old pup from K. Marlowe. He raised him, schooled him out and put the check on him.
    It was said HR "couldn't whip a duck", but was checked very hard and was a deep game dog.
    The dog was used 'to slow them crazy Eli dogs down a bit'. The Eli dogs before the cross (Duprel bred Rascal dogs) becoming crazy and would have all their teeth knocked out by the time they were 1 year old. They would destroy everything, ... The reason for this cross (made by Mike G. and Mike W.) was to slow all this down.

    And another semi-off-topic quote from 19 yrs ago:
    "If you look and see just how a Duprel dog is used by Crenshaw you can see influence. James C., Rodney D. and Irish Jerry are all related by marriage.
    Also Earl T. This Rascal family will be on a steady decline soon. All the breeders I just mentioned have severe health conditions. ..."
     
    stickler, Oct 23, 2019
    #129
  10. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Ok, well, wow. This is really crazy. Not that much that he quit ( don't be surprised when they quit ...), but he was one of the 3 hardest biting dogs ... crazy ... a dog bred like that.
    Weight of gold sounds right ...
    Deep, well, very deep at the bottom you can see a bit of a cross. These dogs got the MAD mouth and kept it ? Holy shit !
    I'm sorry for your time and money, but I would say it was well worth the try. Oh my dog, that's soo bad, getting dogs like that and bred like that ... and then they quit ! Holy cow !
    Guess, it would drive me crazy >:)
    That's for sure some sick fictional stories you got in your head :))
     
    stickler, Oct 23, 2019
    #130
  11. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Well, that's what a 3-way-cross is good for :D
     
    stickler, Oct 23, 2019
    #131
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  12. magnoilaotis

    magnoilaotis Top Dog

    Not Hunter Red. Just a dog with a beautiful pedigree that sired a few litters of mostly average dogs and one quality dog I knew of. Was sold by his owner. Lost track of him after that.
     
    magnoilaotis, Oct 23, 2019
    #132
  13. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Sorry, the HR question was meant for slim. But your example sounds typically RB, percentage wise. A trait ? A bad sign ? A fault ? Next step is a cold dog ?
    Breeding for gameness only without any other good traits is no good breeding. But it's still better than breeding without gameness.
    Mouth, ability etc can be bred back into the family/dogs. You can't add gameness. Gameness can only be lost.
    Why would we breed gameness back in ? And how are we doing this ? With using another game dog of a game family ?
    Why not better starting with the other family again and just forget about the old stuff ?
    A good advise is probably something like 'breed for a reason' or 'breed with a reason in mind'.
    I know we all want the complete game dog, but can we get them super dogs out of each single breeding, or do we have to breed them dogs just in the right way to get what we wanna get someday ? If we got a good average on our yard, then we can work on getting them super dogs more often.

    I mentioned the same example. A hard mouth can be a really bad sign.
    A good game well schooled dog won't give it all with each single bite. I'm not talking about 'slow to start', just that the dog knows he is there to stay ... no matter what. So, why giving it all right from the start ?
    Well, it also takes a well conditioned and handled dog, but some just show a harder mouth at the end. That's a VERY good sign.
    That's a sign of a finisher ?
    A good game dog got confidence in himself. He knows who he is and what he is there for.
    But the foundation was, is and will always be gameness.
    There is just NO REASON for the game dog to get upset. He's not afraid of anything :-B
     
    stickler, Oct 23, 2019
    #133
  14. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    This is pure speculation and personal opinion with some facts thrown here and there to bridge things together. It is somewhat related to the original topic of breeding for traits but maybe more along the lines of this is what happens when breeding for traits vs. breeding in accordance with the papers in hand.

    There is much speculation as to the origins of Red Boy. He has been everything from Old Family Red Nose to Hemphill to Lightner to Cotton's Bullet as well as the Colby dogs listed.

    This is how I see the Red Boy family.

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=391

    This is the mother to the great Jocko dog which when crossed to Red Boy made history. On paper it is a straight out cross.

    In the hills of NC there was an older black fellow, Mr. Calvin Crebbs, who had some of the gamest dogs and gamest chickens to ever live. He was consistently hard on his family of dogs and his methods would be considered brutal to most. He stated the truest test of a game dog was to roll him really hard today and really put him in a rough spot. Get him banged up pretty bad. Get him off the chain the next day when he was beat up and sore and stiff. If he scratched then, odds are he was a bulldog.

    His dogs were of the old Stidham and Cable bred type dogs. It is rumored that Mr. Teal got 'Red Boy' from Calvin Crebbs. When the Red Boy dog was bred to the Jocko females it was not a straight cross like the paper work suggested. It was more of a line breeding back toward those Stidham and Cable dogs from Jocko's bottom half. Instead of a straight cross creating performers the line breeding produced dogs that went on to produce dogs who went on to produce dogs.

    Then the Red Boy dogs got wildly popular. People instead of breeding traits bred papers. Super inbred Red Boy dogs bred down on the pedigree of the the Teal version lost some of their gameness. Some were bred down on the heavier influx of the Cotton Bullet theory. These dogs would retain some of the Red Boy gameness but would bite like a Bullett dog, but the percentages did fade.

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=261369

    Mr.Holland bought several dogs from Mr.Jackson. All of a sudden these long spindly game dogs with little mouth were heavy boned, thick hided really rough and durable game dogs. The above Bobby dog was a rough ass match quality dog who threw rough ass match quality dogs.

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=450960

    This bitch was out of Bobby bred back to a Red Boy/Molly Bee type bitch (but look closer and the Molly Bee bitch is more Snooty than anything). Her paperwork suggested she was heavy on the Red Boy but when this dog was released what landed on the other side was a rough ass, thick hided, hard mouthed Jocko-Snooty-Molly Bee dog.

    All these dogs were heavy on the Red Boy blood, both Red Boy blood as it was papered and Red Boy blood as it was rumored.

    Choosing traits by selecting two dogs or by adding an unknown or a hidden.

    Sort of within the topic, maybe, maybe not.

    S
     
    slim12, Oct 23, 2019
    #134
    stedz, c_note, SMD760 and 3 others like this.
  15. stickler

    stickler Banned

    The Red Boy x Jocko cross has been explained to me pretty deeply. Over 50 handwritten peds just for the Jocko side. With some notes, of course. lol
    I just hope I will be able to understand all of this before I die.
    And I don't know what I wanna tell you ...

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=391

    Queenie is 50% Stidham. Satan x Golden Lassie :)) through Abby and Katie. Mainly Hemphill and a bit of Clouse, of course. :D
    "This Hemphill blood is the original OLD Lightner blood down from Harvey's Red Devil, sire of Centipede - same blood as William's dogs"

    Centipede is Colby x Lightner.

    Fang's sire is Big Red. Not sure yet how to call them dogs. lol Big Red's sire Big Gun is at least line bred on Henry's Midnight.
    Big Red's dam Dolly is also linebred on Centipede/Red Devil + some X-Pert and Galtie on top and Corvino on the bottom.

    Lady Killer's sire is Duke, who is out of Zebo's sire bred to a Clouse bitch. Again lots of the same foundation. Corvino, Centipede/Red Devil, Williams, ...
    So, Queenie is ... probably more red than black ? lol

    Jocko's sire Hank was a Mayfield bred dog. Pretty much of the same foundation, but bred different, of course. With more focus on Dibo dogs.
    I'm just thinking on Mayfield's 'breeding 3 families' theory. So, Hank was more of the 'black type' dog ? :D

    What we still need is white. lol And white is in them Red Boy dogs through Dime. Plus a good shot of red from above. Colby x ?

    RB is double bred on Jeff, who is Dime x Trice. RB's bottom side shows in the 4th generation a dog called Coon's Jack.
    The same dog appears also 2 times in Tombstone's 4th generation ;)
    Down on the bottom of RB, also in the 4th generation, is Sam's Cooky, who is also the dam of Henry's Midnight (!).

    Don't know if all of this makes sense at all. Maybe I can even put more confusion to this with some copies I made just for you guys ~X(>:)
     

    Attached Files:

    stickler, Oct 24, 2019
    #135
    Soze the killer likes this.
  16. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Bullet ... ? :D
    Nobody said Hog ? Damn !
     

    Attached Files:

    stickler, Oct 24, 2019
    #136
  17. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Enjoyed the read.

    Then there is always the variable of did Jeff even factor in to the actual Red Boy dog. The dog that was called Red Boy was more than likely not off of Jeff but when he stopped a few and won a couple and then produced a few the Jeff, and the dogs off him gained some attention.

    The you would have dogs bred the exact same way but no consistency at all between Red Boy and Jeff, how they performed or how they produced.

    All the dogs trace back to the first two, so tracing pedigrees can be used like a road map. And in time Bolio can or can't be related to Red Boy or Eli to Dime or Dibo. Although it is so long ago it has little to do with today's dogs it is a great conversation about each path.

    I could care less how dogs are papered or registered. Once each individual dog is measured to a standard how he came about really does not matter. Grade each one the same and in time one will have pretty much the same.

    The 'how he is papered' 'what is his real pedigree' conversations I am intrigued most by is when there is a drastic change in ability and performance, and sometimes even the conformation of the way a dog looks. I understand colors can come from anywhere and even a shitty producing dog can hit a home run with the right bitch.

    Like it has been mentioned, I am a Red Boy fan. They come in all shapes and sizes and do all sorts of things. And each family or strain has their own characteristics as well. It is the sudden changes, almost like a stud dog grabbed another gear later in life.


    Frisco dogs were not getting it done and we were seeing a shit load of walk away dogs. Straight killers on top but would simply walk away. Then TVK left some Cottingham/Eli dogs on the Hill for a period and then Frisco dogs were a deeper red with a black mask looking just like Rusty/Rusty Reb. They went from chest pounding thumpers to hard mouth face eating machines. Then other Frisco litters started looking like Dynomite, throwing world class dogs like Caballo. Sudden changes.

    The Holland dogs were good dogs to cross to but seldom did they stand on their own. A few VJ dogs were purchased and in one generation there is bone and mass, and thick hided, rough ass, hard biting chest thumping rear end pounding killers. Most time in repeat breedings the first breeding totes most of the success. In the Holland dogs the first breeding produced Holland Red Boy dogs. Head fighters, ear suckers with average to below average mouth. Game but not enough ability to ride up the road. Then the second breeding dogs were knock out artist.

    The version of my Red By dogs once were all colors of Red and White, some brindling here and there. There is a rumor that says GRCH Rufus was infused and then the red/white/brindle dogs were BLACK and biting shit in half. (Not complaining, but really thankful as I never cared, LOL)

    This is why I think selection and grading the individual dog is the most important step, and if it lines up with what we 'see' in the pedigree, then so be it. If not, most of the time it was fifty years ago and is nothing more than a enjoyable conversation.

    My pops had a drag car and I grew up in dirt track racing. We sit around today and talk about a guy that snuck in a 'bastard-dized' nitrous squirt on a dirt 4 cylinder car. It was as dangerous and dumb as anything I had ever seen. But he won and he had a trophy and $300. Top of the world. So and so cheated, 'ran a lightened crank', 'that has to be a long rod motor'.

    I think most every form of competition will have similar conversations.

    Great topic.

    S
     
    slim12, Oct 24, 2019
    #137
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  18. Mrgame

    Mrgame Pup

    you have to have time, space, time and money to do tests with curs. There was talk about whether urban legend about "Frisco" was a cold dog, as well as "little gator", and their records indicate that they are good producers. How much truth there is in this?

    regards
     
    Mrgame, Oct 24, 2019
    #138
  19. stedz

    stedz Top Dog

    I understand that stidham blood was very rare and highly prized in the carolinas S ?
     
    stedz, Oct 24, 2019
    #139
  20. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Long before my time but I have always heard the same. The dogs that were born there pretty much never left and when they did they were always within an arm reach away.

    S
     
    slim12, Oct 24, 2019
    #140
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