Breeding for traits

All the oppinions on this thred are great...
This comes stright to my mind....


"So many men,so many minds;
So many hounds,so many kinds."

Sir John Buchanan-Jardine quoting an 18 century proberb in his "Hounds of the world."

 

You would be surprised at how game some terriers can be... takes a lot of guts to dig into your preys hole, fight it, then kill it. I’m not talking about rats either...

When the W and more importantly the $ are at stake, one does what one has to. There have been too many dogs bred by too many different ppl to NOT have added anything imo. Look at some of the dogs. They look nothing like a pure breed, although having been bred “purely” for a while. Just my opinion

 

I just got that feeling that you think I'm talking about game plugs. The recipe I got is no magic no one else got. Sounds like every one is doing right but me. lol
Gameness alone will not cut it !! Of course not. Game plugs are also not my type of dogs.

My reason for writing on this board is not educating the pros. lol I just wanna give folks, who do not know yet, something to think about.
My advise could just be: people, please, think more BEFORE breeding. Get the best dogs you can get, if at all.
Show dogs only need as much gameness as needed to win, but the more the better. Selection for show.
Brood dogs should be better as game as it gets plus as many as possible other traits to a high degree and a high quality. Selection for brood.
My breeding style will be GAMENESS PLUS TRAITS forever and not TRAITS PLUS GAMENESS.
But people can breed whatever they want ! Problem is they actually do. lol

How many times did we read the quote at the last page of the sdj ?

The test of a dog is the show !
The test of a family is time !

People just will get better dogs with this in mind. That's what I believe. It just sucks 'still' to see those dogs who get a poor care or are just shitty bred.
I only blame those idiots who never will be able to see a dog's full potential especially from it's own dog.
People who are doing good with the dogs, no matter if they win or lose, earn my respect.

Real dogmen with real dogs are mostly very nice guys. Those type of guys just love the dogs and like to see them happy.
Even one like @AGK probably would play the game at weekend if there would be no law. Because he would give his dogs what they are asking for. I'm sure !
But he can't and won't do that. The point here is that it still can be done in a 'still good enough or better' way. How can this be ?
Other folks playing and checking at all times ... and still it mostly looks kinda shitty. How can this be ?
And what works better in the long run ? The show is for today, breeding is for the future. That's all I'm saying.
A game plug is probably still the better choice compared to a dog with everything else but gameness.

Damn, I don't wanna write that much anymore.

You think gameness comes in different levels. Ok, your opinion, and I got mine. No problem.

"Most dogs are only so game" ... yup, that's the reality. It's you who is telling me better the dogs is the way to go.
So just make them better, make them gamer.
They can be just so game. I'm not saying using real game dogs is easy, but I also would not call it impossible.
I would even go so far to say: the gamer the dog/family/blood is, the more traits - in an even higher degree and quality - can be put in these dogs.
When bred right !Or if you got just lucky ... Freaks !

What if Jesse Owens would be the one running today and Usain Bolt was from the older days ?
Would Jesse run faster today ? Would Usain run slower 60-70 yrs ago ?
Maybe it's just because the whole world got more educated. Why should this not work with dogs, even game dogs ? lol

Not since the first cross has been made, true. But, I guess, you can agree if I say the pit or game dog is a pure breed today ?
And still I believe there is a difference in them 'english' bred dogs and them of dogs of ireland, known as the of.
THIS WAS A CROSS ! Why was this a cross ? Well, facts would be cool, but are hard to get.
I was going through all the possible scenarios which i got in my head with the info I got.
The best answer I found through using horse sense and percentages is that the OF dogs are a terrier breed. Terrier mutations
But again, that's just how I see it and can be wrong or right

Why I am thinking about all of that crap at all ? Maybe because I lost a real good game dog once and just tried to do better from there.
And I wasn't much learning from just losing money, it was the losing dog who got me thinking. The idiot cur was me.
People who never get a lesson from these beautiful dogs can never be real dogmen.
Nobody should take this in a personal way, as long as you don't fit in there. lol

 

If I am wrong in so many ways then just let me know if or what I'm doing right, sir.
I don't know just this one testing method. And it's not my testing method. I would say different dogs different ways. As always.
But, yes, I have heard about this or that about testing. The multi dogging think I got from one who know a bit about dogmen like Duprel.
That's the one who did breed lots of them in JC's dogs. This just btw. lol
Just ask someone who knows how testing went with that kind of dogs.
I guess, you won't say how to check ?

 

Next beer and blunt goes on me, my new friend

 

They look nothing like pure breed because pure breeds are not pure...
i think they look how they look because form always follows funchion.always.
they look how they look because they have never been bred for cosmetic appeal.

Terriers are game yes.
but not in the same league as these dogs.
i dont class a terrier as game, because a terrier what goes to ground and kills its fox,is fighting with a wild animal thats terrified beyond belife.also the terrier will of hadthe best diet and been wormed and flead and the fox wont have...so the terrier in top condition is gunna kill its fox.

No terrier can go to ground and kill a badger.no terrier.
also some terriers bark and attack.witch confuses his qurry.

Im not saying crossing to terriers never happend.but if it did happen it would of been to swell the stock.not to make the dogs faster or gamer or better or anything like that.....the cull rate of the early dogs must of been high.

We would not outcross to differnt breeds in to days age-and with good reasons to....for one theres no need to.and for two all you would get is curs.

But lets rethink this.
lets say we had to out cross to a diffrent breed..there was a war or something.and there was only a small amount of dogs left.
How would we keep them going?
wed breed the ones left togther untill they got to inbred, then wed have to cross to a differnt breed.
ok.thats fine.
but what breed would we use???
i suppose you could use any athletic working breed as long you breed it back out.
long long way to go with a massiv cull rate.

But ide use terriers before any other breeds when you some it up.
for a start they are small handy dogs with some amount of gamness..
they bond well with owners.
they attack stuff witch is a real help.
they heal rather fast compeard to other dogs.
they have lots of stanima.
and it would be a cross that the Bulldog could easy assimulate,as it would be easy to breed the terrier out in a generation or two.(most of the terrier lol-there would still need to be lots of culling lol)

So more through desperation or needs for more dogs-in poorer places perhaps that terrier may or may not..have been crossed in.

sorry for getting of topic.
i find history on these dogs little short of facinateing.
i think a "Bulldog or Terrier???" thread is on the cards lol.

All the best folks.

 

Them Dibo dogs changed the game way before us C Note .Just like the spread offence changing football.

 

And them inbred Dibo dogs changed the game again. Mouth over gameness.
The good breeders of that time were very selectively with the Dibo stuff, see Ed Crenshaw interview.
The rest just did the Dibo breeding for it's mouth and/or it's name. There was that ONE special breeding made and this was the exception to the rule.
This breeding produced the Spike, Buck, Jeff litter. The exception to the rule was they were all early starters. No late starters and no cold dogs.

Before Dibo dogs you got all those family bred dogs ... Colby, Tudor, Corvino, ... Colby dogs, Tudor dogs, Corvino dogs ...
From there it was much more about the single dog, Dibo dogs,Red Boy dogs, Jeep dogs ...
There is so much Dibo in the dogs of today that I would think knowing how he was bred should be a good idea.
Dibo is a good start, if someone needs to learn how to read a ped. Going back and forth from there should work well.

That time was a huge change for sure. Almost an 180 degree turn.
And I do not like the fact, so I was always looking for them old school guys with great family bred dogs.
But the younger folks do not not care so much anymore, I guess. Damn, I am old !

 

Senior lol.

 

The game evolved.Sure its still some breeders out there who try to breed dead game.Everyone has thier own idea of what one should look like Stickler and your not wrong either. You like what you like.I'm not saying your wrong.I don't think anybody here is wrong .Just different opinions in what they have saw and learned over the years.

 

I agree.....some great opinions from every one whos tuned in with there knowlege...

So meny men so many minds.
so many hounds so many kinds.


I had to say it again.
sorry folks.
LOL

 

IMO you need a well rounded dog in today's world and Gameness is a part of the package but not the total package .

 

I wanna agree and so I do so.
The game involved up to what point ? Is it still getting better ? Or is the game going down ?
Of course, I am just dreaming. Would love to get all of them gone great dogmen back.
How many of them old school guys are still out there ? I was young when I was starting, and the old timers have been just that at that time, old timers.
Now that I am old, Who's left ?
I just hope there are still enough of them true dogmen still around to keep that game going.
Best chance to find them old school guys is still in the us and mexico, most probably.
Some of you or us worldwide just got the right DNA for being a dog man. Nothing will change this.
And those who know ... don't even have to think about that much like me. lol

Really, I don't care that much about the quality of other people dogs. I wished they all would get only the greats.
But why do I still see that much junk ? Percentage wise ? There will always be only a few greats and countless average or bad dogs.
People like what they got so they keep it. Nothing wrong with that.
If this is done this way with only the 'real' dogmen (by heart) then this would be a wonderful world. lol
But there is just too many non dogmen in this game. And they never can or want to understand the whole thing, cause it's not coming from the heart.
And the dogs and the 'good' folks pay the price, of course.
What a dilemma !? lol

 

Wanna give it a new try without killing the talk.

Could it be that the show side of this game, those who are trying to win, mainly are looking for the good signs in a single dog ?
Got enough mouth, ability and everything else needed to win ?

And the breeder on the other hand is mainly looking for faults first ?

What do you think is more important when it comes to breeding ?
Getting all those good traits needed to win ?
Or making sure that no fault will be bred in/to your family of dogs ?
Dogs without faults can also get all those other qualities to a high degree, of coarse.

Would you accept faults or even just a single fault in your dogs, if the dogs got, besides the fault, a top mouth and/or high ability ?
As a show man ?
As a breeder ?

To me, one of those ways describes 'production'.
The other way means 'breeding' (for the future) to me.
Which dogs are the better choice for you ?

How serious are you guys about producing or breeding your own ?

It's my own opinion that I believe it's better not to breed at all than producing bad ones.
What does this mean ? lol
Be smart enough about your own talents, capacities and resources. lol
A good example could be s...xx or another guy who is getting whatever he needs/wants for cheap/free from a good breeder of his choice.
He probably can even put the dog back to the breeders spot and go on vacation. lol

I mean, what's the problem, if someone is mainly trying to win as often as possible and still having time for all those other things the 'normal' people enjoy ? I think it's no bad idea being a h&c without keeping dogs at all times.
Do we all need to produce our own dogs ?
I don't have dogs right now, and so I got a lot of free time. Need help ? I'm waiting for offers. LOL

 

Great post, I'd add it takes traits to win, gameness being one, but it takes enough of any of them on any certain night, right ! and a good keep and a keen handler.

 

Well said slim, and well added FW.

Is the man/camp/team behind the dogs the BIGGEST factor ?

The man made dog (well bred or not) is a well managed dog. Well, this does not automatically lead to 'super dogs', but doing well in all aspects of them dogs will give you an advantage, of course.
It's pretty hard to survive in the game as a one man gang. There is a maximum a single dogman can do, keep, learn, see ... and it's kinda easy to get over that point with time.

Maybe slim can be looked at as a one man gang, but there was still a team behind him. And slim's part was just showing. Another one did the breeding, another one did this or that. Slim, you would probably doing best with keeping only 1 or 2 dogs at a time. And you don't even have to own them dogs. But those dogs have to be in the best possible shape and mood, and if slim is just the right guy to bring them dogs to that point, then he will be the breeders choice for doing good with his dogs. If the breeder got confidence in his dogs and you, and you got confidence in the breeders choice, then, well ...
Looks like 'your only problem' is that you just like to have dogs around you at all times. lol There was probably not really the need to keep 30 dogs ?
Without those 30 dogs to care for you would be still able to play the game in a way you like plus the fact that you could celebrate your success on vacations. Freedom ! lol Can you see what I wanna say ?

This game for most of us is 'just' a hobby. If one is doing dogs 24/7/365, can this still be called a hobby ?
I would expect a pro-level at that point. I believe most simply call it a hobby because it still costs money to keep them dogs.
Well, it's just like betting on horses. It's just a hobby for me because I lose money. And the guy next to me is a pro, because he is a winning player.
Placing money on horses is his job. Maybe he is the kind of guy who will finish 'work', when he got already enough money for the day/week/month/year or a lifetime. Can be 2k, 5k or just as much as needed or wanted.
But maybe he is just that good ... so why stopping if you got a run ? Get on a longer and better vacation trip later ... could be the way of the next guy.
Guess, there is not only those 'rich' poker pros in Las Vegas. What about those who are 'working' poker 8 hours a day, 5 times a week ? Those who want to earn let's say 25 bucks per hour. 200 a day. Means, this can be a long day or even a losing day, or it's just a short day on work, if you win those 200 early. When is enough enough for each individual could be another question.
Well, life can be soo easy. lol

Can be, sure. I would think those 'complete dogmen' are much rarer than real game dogs. And even those got their limits.
Want to tell names of the past who fit into this category ? And can their limits be seen ?
Tudor ... Giroux ... Maloney ... ?

Would it not be better if we all would be specialists in one field or another ? Quality over quantity ?
Trouble with the game is not the dogs, it's the people.
People should be checked, like the dogs, for all those good qualities and also for faults. lol
This would raise the average very quickly. Selection, as mostly, is a key here, be it about dogs or people.

I don't write to give you experienced guys a smart ass lesson, this is just for the newsters and online gangsters ... think first and try to understand at least a bit BEFORE YOU START YOUR OWN SHIT, if you really like these dogs.

Which traits, and how much of them, are needed in a good dogman ?
One of my visible faults is ... I write too much !

 

Most important trait for a dogman '' HONESTY''.
Most important trait for a dog '' GAMENESS''.
Both goes together hand in hand.
All other traits just that important to being succesfull ( as is to read here in lenghty discussions ) but if someone is not honest and lack the gameness he's for sure pissing into the wind bigtime.
Have all a great weekend.

 

Very well said..very good point.and its the main thing.
if your not honest,then who are you kidden really?.
Its like lying to your own brain lol.....

Pissin in the wind is a great way to put it.lol.

All the best...
you have a nice weekend to mate.