Breeding for traits

Who is god ? Or who he thinks he is
It's hard to keep all of them traits in one single dog. True. But it can't get lost that easily if it's in the family.
Try to breed that shit out ?

 

Damn, who did all the typing

 

Hello Gents;

''

A dog with a '' clock '' in them … culls.

If once curred out, they will cur out again, only quicker.

The majority will stop, under constantly heavy pressure, heat is the 1st thing what make a dog stop in his tracks.

Some will gamecheck before and some let the dog prove it in a show after some proper schooling, to each his own, they all want to win, the breeder and the competitioner.

The 3 or 4 thing maybe interessting for a breeder but each scar takes something out of them ( Quote Earl Tudor )
and there is a lot of truth in that.

The breeder who check, will use the dog he rate the best of the pack, gameness….ability…..stamina….. ancestors, it all comes in play.
Who knows if he finally use that old banged up old dog chained up in his yard to sire a litter ? probarly he does as it such a good dog like Stickler described.

 

But a dog with a clock inside can still be the perfect schooling dog. Wished I could keep 3-5 schooling dogs of each sex and different weights and styles
Yes, a cur will most probably quit quicker the next time. But with 'a dog with a clock' I really mean those who will always quit at the same time, no matter what, again and again. Those dogs do not quit in 0:20, 0:15, 0:10. Such a dog will quit at 0:20, 0:20, 0:20. Top or bottom.
Well, dogs like that are again not the rule, of course.
But if we think most of the dogs today are shit than we sometimes just have to think in another way as the average guy

And if the majority will stop, does it mean on the other hand that some still won't/can't quit ?

'Heat is the 1st thing ...' is also what I think.

A 'pure' breeder does 'not need' to win. And he can not lose. But he can still lose his dogs and the blood/DNA..
Well, the game check seem to be kinda tricky
And if you keep your own 'good' schooling dogs you do not want to lose them as well. That's where 3 or even 4 dogging might make some sense.
Well, checking a real monster can not be that easy But there is always a way
And using 4 fresh dogs with different style on one dog for 10 min. each could be still better as using just one for 0:40 ... or two dogs 0:20 each.
Means, you might lose more dogs when using less dogs. Using more than just one dog will better the odds that all dogs will survive.
Yup, it's tricky. And as always there is more than only one way to do it right.

You call them scars ... I call them character stripes

I believe a good breeder who checks is using the right dog at the right time. Could be of course his best dog, sure. Who knows ?

 

Is it really true that every scar takes something out of them, a dead game dog is a dead game dog at the end of the day. As long as they are game enough to scratch the line that is all that matters at the end of the day.

 

I would say what you write is reality.
It makes me sick thinking about it
It's just so easy to blame the dog. Or the breeder.
A dog who quit once for the 'wrong' reason can still be of value or even be a very good dog, who never got the best chance to show his full potential.
How many times a good dog is in the wrong hands ?

Most of the time a cur is a cur, that's the rule. Useless dogs. But what about those exception to the rule dogs ?
I am not that quick on culling anymore.
Well, I would not breed to that dog when I still got doubts about it, but why culling if he showed to be good quality already ?
He might not be game til the end, but he still could be good enough for whatever.

I know of a dog from a well known breeding, who quit in his first at less than 1 1/2 years old vs a ch. I can relate, because I got some knowledge about these dogs.
The sire earned a lot of respect and standing ovations
A guy was asked to save the young dog. He refused, as he got no time to save a cur, is what he said
The dog later won 5, all over winners. And he was used as a stud and produced winners and ch's with each single breeding.
The guy who refused to help later purchased the dog and took the dog straight to the semen bank. That's his only stud for the next couple of years.

This just shows that we all still get something new to learn each single fooking day.
If you cull and you forget about the dog quickly, then the dog most probably was a cur.
And sometimes, maybe just sometimes, or never, you get that weird feeling and you miss the dog ? Did I make the right decision ?
Why is it like that ? What's wrong here ?

But I guess people often just like to cull

The definition I got of gameness just fits better to my thinking.
The inability to quit just says it all.
To me 'will to continue' sounds more like second wind. And I believe a dog who will just continue is not good enough for you.
I was expecting you write 'will to win'. Plus the ability to win, be it through mouth and a finish or however
A game dog, a real game dog, got no ability to quit.

I am not saying breeding to the better or best dogs is a bad idea. But I doubt that this is always the best way.
Good honest and solid dogs should be the overall average in this breed. But that's no law, just my opinion. lol
Broodstock and showstock are both different and very special. And of course, they go hand in hand.

Ok, you are not a breeder. I do accept this now At least you don't think like one.
Just imagine you would be a breeder Then you would just give a fuck about all of this Does not mean you don't like a good show. lol
Being a breeder does not mean you can't attend the shows. Could be just watching or the presence of a dog you bred.
But he got eyes and can compare the things he can see.
When people are celebrating their new gr ch, then the breeder could be already on his way back home, smiling all the time, because he know he got a couple on the yard who will beat the dog.
The breeder did everything in private and only a few know about this. But nobody else can see, because the dog will never be shown to the public.
Who knows what the breeder is doing, as long as his name is not Victor or Chico or ... ?
Can be worldbeaters or can be simple shit.

But like I said already, the mainstream or hyped up stuff is not my cup of tea.
I like to gamble in other parts of this game

Salute to the breeders ! Salute to the action guys ! And to the rest ... gggrrrrrrr

So true ! But this can't be that good. You like them RB dogs. For what ? Ability ? Style ? Mouth ? Or brain ? Or because of the gameness these dogs are known for ?
And maybe to slow them other bred 'show quality' down a bit ?
Would you breed back again once more to a pure RB dog who fits your expectations ?
What would your dogs be without the RB influence ? Do you have to bring gameness 'back in' from time to time ?

Breeding game dogs does not mean everything else is lost. A good breeder will get all the required qualities in his dogs BASED ON GAMENESS !
We need both, brood and show stock. But gameness comes first
What if the last breeder will be gone ? Can this breed survive ? I do not think so.
A true breeder is just a slave of his dogs and his own. This is his lifestyle.
Show people win or lose and move on. Completely different type of guys. And I just prefer the breeder type of guy.

 

But what about them people who do both?.....breed there own and show there own?
admittidly some cant juggle both sides-as it can be a full time job on both sides...
but what about the ones what do?
as hard as it must be juggleing the two sides....it still must be very rewarding to make you own and show your own.

 

The complete dogman, yeah I have heard about them

 

LOL......
they do exist...i assure you.

 

I think there are levels and degrees of gameness just like levels of everything else. I don’t believe they are just game or they are not. That would ruin a loooooooooooot of yards... I think the will to continue is a good definition, maybe add in against winning odds. Some dogs will go back just to keep fighting, some dogs think they can win at all costs. The latter, plus an owner that leaves them down, will usually get you a dead game dog... You see him/her tryin to win and you think they can, next thing you know y’all stretched out. I wouldn’t dare take just a game dog out to play, it better have a good couple attributes.

Crossing the line and making contact is all they are required to do, in time. I know damn well every “game dog” ain’t a good one worth breeding. Most game dogs, game plugs, aren’t even worth a bet. If all we bred for was gameness we would have a long night’s work every work night! One needs more than the big G to win, that’s why other traits are put ahead of game, imo. Maybe we assume they are a game breed we don’t need the deepest gameness. These dogs were created to win, against anything. They were not created to just keep coming back for more punishment for the hell of it. Thats why I think other traits are bred for over G

I think we get caught up in old stories we read and are told. We gotta realize how long ago that was and how far we have come. EVERYTHING has come along damn near LIGHTYEARS to what we knew say 30-40yrs ago! Everything is bigger, faster, stronger, and maaaaaybe “better” than it used to be. Except food, food used to be better in yesteryear... I would step out on a limb and say the dogs of today are better than they were. If you could pick 5 males and females from 1890-1970, then 5 of both from 1985-present I would bet we have the better dogs.

 

These dogs were created to win,against anything.They were not created to just keep coming back for more punishment for the hell of it.

Hell of a saying that mate.

dam i might right that down so i dont forget it.

 

Especially the guys who call these dogs Bulldogs should know these dogs were used for all kind of game sports before it became a pitdog.
It was not about winning in first place, it was about 'showing' gameness mainly. Bloody sports. Butchers dream
I do not even call the dogs bulldogs. I just call them pit or game dogs. Or in private 'my little Terriers'. lol
(well, I still believe there is more of the Terrier blood coming from the OF dogs )

@c_note One more time. A game dog has not to be a game plug. I know what you wanna say (maybe). But ...
It's not like this more and this less. Like more air, less mouth. Gameness is there. Or it's not there.
Can gameness be there ? Sounds more like gameness is a 'missing gene'.
It was said, and I would agree, that gameness is against the nature. So, maybe nature is just fighting back ? Breeding vs evolution ?
I don't know
And I can also say what a game hard mouth dog looks like. I can even better say what a dog looks like when brought in under and in bad shape.
Not half the mouth he used to be. I know what he looked like compared to the one who won over the dog in over 2h and later made champion against a more respected competition, both in around 0:45.
Please just do not act like I do not know what I am talking about. I know what a good dog looks like. I do know very well.
I also do know what a good handler, breeder, dogman looks like. Believe it or not

And it can not be what it not can be ? Those yards are ruined already. People just have to recognize
All you guys still diggin holes by hand ? lol

Everything ... Lightyears ... Well, DNA is still the same and ever was. DNA won't change from birth to death. We and our dogs are our DNA.
But we also get mutations from time to time. Also throwbacks !
The dogs should be better today ... when bred right. But that's not reality. The dogs most probably have not changed that much.
They are still the same, with less of the pure bred ones.
Nutrition today should be better, same with food in general. But is this really the case ? Feeding off a bag is better ? What about water quality ?

The dogs have not changed, the world and the dogmen have. Just look at me, I'm writing on a board like this ? Who am I to do this ?
On the other hand I can also spot the bad examples. I see all of this from different angles. Some of what I write is not even my own opinion.
But if this could be an option then I will think about it. Be it good or bad, doesn't matter.
Do we all have to be the best breeder, conditioner, handler, dog whisperer, vet and everything else ? All in one ?
I don't think so. But a team with the best breeder, the best conditioner and best handler will be hard to beat, of course.
Well, and if all of this is also managed very well ...
Guess I can think on a pro level cause I got no dogs

 

Just curious but why do you think theres more terrier in them through ofr?

Ha,ha,start a diffrent thread on bulldogs and terriers LOL.

 

Thatll give ya lots to right about lol.

 

I think you are confused as to what I’m saying. Never did I say a game dog is a game plug. When I say game plug, I mean a dog that only has gameness no real ability to speak of. What I will say, I repeat and stick by it, GAMENESS ALONE WILL NOT CUT IT!! Hence, WE BREED FOR TRAITS!!!!! You keep saying the same thing like you have a magical recipe that no one else has. Folks been breeding and doing dogs for quite a while. If the folks that actually still use their stuff, and are winning, are STILL adding dogs for TRAITS, are you more competent than they???

Gameness comes in levels. Some, VERY FEW, are dead game. Dead game means they never quit, right? By your definition that’s the only game. Either they are or they aren’t, they will quit or they won’t. What if they dog you call game just hasn’t had the opportunity to quit? Maybe your comp isn’t good, maybe your location doesn’t afford the best comp... imo most will quit... I’m sure you’ll say something about the dogs I’ve seen yada yada yada... What about the ones I haven’t seen that showed good, then quit??? Most dogs are only so game. Period

Yes, lightyears... If Don Mayfield was ahead of his time 40yrs ago, how do you think ppl compare today to that time??? The dogs are not the same as they used to be!! That’s like saying the athletes of today are like they used to be... Genetically, yes. Was Jesse Owens faster than Usain Bolt??? You can’t convince me that the dogs are the same as more than 35-40yrs ago. If they are we been on a hamster wheel. Food and water were better, I said that... Nutritional info is much better today, our understanding of health is better, our meds are better. What do we NOT have that they had back then?? All they had was less eyes on them...

Lastly, the APBT has never been a pure breed. I believe other breeds have been added as close as the 20th century... working dogs don’t need to be “pure bred,” they need to be working bred.

 

Some look and act more terrier than bulldog... he said OF, old family, not OFR, old family red. Bulldog and terrier were more of titles than breeds back in the day from what I’ve gathered

 

I don't know where you have heard all this junk at . But you are so wrong in so many ways . Your testing method will ruin more than you will ever do . Those quitters well very few can go on to do anything .

 

Whats the diffrence between of and ofr??
I gotta say aswell they are probaly the most purest bred dog in the world.

Im not saying theres no terrier in them.
but would you say terrier is the main ingredient?
No way it is.
if it was crossd with terriers it was not to make a new breed..it was more to recreate a breed what had exsited since time begun.
dog fighting is not only 200 years old..its much older.
the first rules for man fighting and dog fighting were manufactured for the sports to be fair in 1740..
both man fighting and dog fighting are probaly 2 of the most oldest sports along with Cock fighting and Bull fighting.

Its fair to state in the 19th century terrier blood was crossed in.but i really doubt terrier was crossed in to inprove the dog or make it a new breed.
admittidly many writers of them times state it was now a distinct breed comperd to the Bull dogs or Baiting dogs..but them writers were no dog men.them wrighters wrote more about rich mens dogs like pointers and hounds...witch the info was there plenty enough.
the same writers should be taken with a pinch of salt.as they had no knowlege of pit dogs or sheep dogs or lurchers or terriers...becuse the poor or working class could harldly afford to publish books.

It seems a lot more fairer to state that no matter what they were crossed with dose not make them a seperate breed because they had been a set type for milleniems...
look at the Greyhound.
the purset dog in the world.
the same dogs as was on the tombs.
but the Greyhound of today had a outcross in 1780 to the fighting dogs of the time..
now we dont call the Greyhound the Greyhound Bull.do we?
we call it the Greyhound because thats what it is no matter what it was crossed with two hundred years ago.

Im under the inpression that the APBT is the Bulldog-but redircted to show fight with other dogs rather then bulls or bears.
i think they would of looked just like they do now five hundred years ago.

Sorry to get of topic.
this a great thread.great reading all these oppinions on traits.
good descusion folks.all the best.