Black and tan and liver color

Does anyone know why these colors are verboten in show ASTs and Staffies? I have owned dark brown bulldogs and seen tan pointed bulldogs and Staffies and I think all of the above are beautiful (that is, if the dog itself is not hideous).

 

Great colour black and tan,I don't really like liver colour dogs.but the colour of a dog means nothing.(performance wise)...black and tan and liver is Staffordshire Bull Terriers.is frowned upon,by the K.C.only...don't no why?.but I read something ages ago what J.F.Gordan wrote.he said something like......the liver colour dogs have a dudly nose and light colour eyes.and look rather ugly..black and tan is to much of a dominant colour.and if we allow it, to many dogs will have that colour...or something like that.lol...it was years ago when I read it............I don't no why them colours are band in American Staffordshires??..probably for the same reasons???....hope that helps.

 

The black and tan are more terrier colors imo. Maybe they were trying to separate the terriers from what they deemed as another breed, not another breed of terrier.

I’ve seen apbt that look like JUST LIKE terriers, bug eyes and all. On the opposite end, I’ve seen apbt that could pass as ABs. Example; Patrick dogs have a terrier look and the old Carver dogs like Stompanato look just like today’s hybrid AB

 

All the things both of you said make sense. OTOH conformation standards often are downright kooky. I think the AST people forbade black and tan/liver because they were forbidden in SBTs, and inexplicably added mostly white Am Staffs to the list. Of course most game dog people know why red nosed ASTs are prohibited.

 

I agree..there's been,since the first ever pit dogs.a huge variation in type.from there colours to there size/hight.to there weights.to there shape,to there head shape,even to there ear shape and tails.a huge variation.....some look "houndy"..or even "greyhoundy"....some look a bit" terrier-ish".....some look like a mutt.and some look like the most perfectly built dogs any one could ever see........I think the variation can only be a good thing..and it's ultimate proof,that FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION......if we stop breeding for function.we end up with a big powerful stupid looking mutt,,that,as powerful as it looks can not do the job it was originally bread for...we only have to look at the American Staffordshires to see were I'm coming from here.......but yeah,a huge variation in pit dogs..quite simply,not because they've got hound or greyhound or whatever in them.it's because they have been bread for one thing only.very consistently.and the real people who breed them really don't care about what they look like.........they just care what ACT like.....

 

If you look at the original standard for Staffordshire Bull Terrier, from England in 1935, the Staffordshire Terrier standard (1936 in USA) is VERY similar. Yes, it is thought the Staffordshire Terrier standard (not known as AMERICAN Staffordshire Terrier until the 70s) was partially written with the SBT standard in mind. The founders of the Staffordshire Terrier (they were APBT people who wanted to be able to show their APBTs) thought the dogs quite closely related and much the same except for size, the American dog being 8 - 10 pounds bigger (and if you look at pics from back then, the SBTs of the time looked very much like the smaller APBTs in this country). It is thought the restriction on black and tan IS because that is the way the SBT standard was written. Still, there are several black and tan champions ASTs. It is NOT a disqualification and neither is white and there have been a few all white AST champions too.

The "nose definitely black" WAS meant to exclude the red-nose (liver) dogs. Elsewhere in the Staffordshire Terrier standard (which has never changed), dark eyes are called for. The red-nosed dogs, with their lighter eyes and noses didn't fit into what the founders wanted (you have to admit, the lighter-eyed/nosed liver dogs are quite different looking from dogs with dark pigment).

The original ST standard submitted to AKC did not include the restriction on white, but the influential Bull Terrier Club of America did not want another all-white bull and terrier breed in the AKC --- and AKC listened to them.