Old Family Red

Thats how I understand it also - only so many people doggin back in the day. Honest men are the ones that you learn from, not people trying to blow smoke...that is a fact.

 

Spellcheck..lol

 

dudley is in the black country, staffordshire England..

 

I'm okay here....just school, work and dogs,,,,a revolving cycle, lol.
What's the saying, "It's all water under the bridge?" (It's rhetorical, which means I already know the answer, lol.)
I may post a recent pic in my intro...of a more well grown dog...which carries a traditional color that's on topic now...
Feel free to contact me anytime....

 

This thread is about Old Family Reds and the Strain of Old Family Red NOSE.
The term Dudley use around this strain is in reference to a Dudley colored nose, flesh colored.
Now some part of the world they might call SBT Dudley, just some parts in the U.S. now days refer to American Pit Bull Terriers as game dogs, when really every one use to called them Pit Dogs.

 

because if you dont ask you will never know and i dont have so many questions all i am asking is SHOW me pics of these little irish old family red dogs from the late 1800's and the other question is where did the stock that the stuff that went to the U.S. was bred off go coz there are no records of them here (i havent came across any) . are we supposed to just belive everyting we hear or read ? shit a few hundred years ago the world was flat!

ohh i can tell you like him just fine but lookin at the dogs posted in your gallery i really doubt you have the same intrests unless I.M. has completely turn his back on the breed and how it should be like so many yanks have. theres only one way to preserve this breed how it should be and pulling a cart full of blocks down a track or prancing around a show ring waving a pedigree is'nt it !
so less of your "YIS" at the end of your posts coz you sure dont have no sporting dogs !
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yiz think your dogs are so much better than dogs anywhere else in the world well i know for a fact that they are no better ! a dog is a dog no matter where it is and it can only do what it can on the day .

someone posted about cheep matches 300 - 500 ? if its about the dogs the purse shouldnt matter its about who has the best dogs not the biggest wallet a lot of ppl hide behind a big purse . i have more respect for ppl who will set a good dog down for small money because it shows they are about the dogs not the cash !

 

gaelic game dog;

quote; "because if you dont ask you will never know and i dont have so many questions all i am asking is SHOW me pics of these little irish old family red dogs from the late 1800's and the other question is where did the stock that the stuff that went to the U.S. was bred off go coz there are no records of them here (i havent came across any) . are we supposed to just belive everyting we hear or read ? shit a few hundred years ago the world was flat!"

I have understood what you have been trying to ask from the beginning. I don't understand all the hostility towards your question.
But the bottom line is, there are most likely very few photos from back in the 1800's and early 1900's to prove a point one way or another. And there are most likely very few, if any records in Ireland from breeders of that time. And like IM stated, they where very secretive and proud of their dogs and didn't let much info out. I am of Irish decent, my great Grand Parents came over during the great potato famine. And I also believe the potato famine had a huge impact on the original "old family" dogs in Ireland at that time. The klans that owned the dogs back then where common folk, and where most likely more concerned with personal survival than the dogs. But I would bet that there may still be a few families in Ireland that still may have dogs of the original lines. Good luck finding the proof your looking for.

 

thats a movie, made in Hollywood....stay on topic

 

I only read the first 5 or 6 pages of this topic

my own theory is that during and after the famine in Ireland there was mass emigration, this is a fact
if you leave , you will bring all your treasued possesions with you including your best dogs, if they may give you the opportunity to make some extra money via matches

when ppl realised that there was an appetite in the US in the 1800's for match dogs and that they were willing to pay , what at that time in Ireland were huge sums of money for good match dogs, to ppl who had witnessed extreme hardship during their lifetimes, death, disease, famine, emigration, all during a time they were colonised and treated as second class citizens with little to no eduction for the majority; well the answer is pretty obvious imo, most if not almost all the good dogs may have been sent across the sea

why not keep some dogs in Ireland at that time, continue to breed and test them with the intent to selling them to interested parties in the USA ?
maybe the sums of money offered were too tempting to ppl who didn't know if there would be another famine in their lifetime, or some other major hardship in their near future
but there must have been some dogs kept, so what happened to them ? no one can honestly say, but it is likely that they were worked but their numbers probably dwindled

how many reported matches between dogs of this type can be found in Ireland at any time during the 1700's, 1800's, early 1900's ?

the majority of irish ppl is those times were illierate
paper or vellum , ink and quills were the property of the rich
it's extremely doubtful that any written records were kept on these dogs at that time in Ireland

as for the term Dudley, it's association to it's name place in the U.K. , and the strain of dog associted with it, the Dudley Terrier, which is said to have been descended from the Irish Bulldog, a dog that was mostly red/liver in color , was probably related to the old family dogs Mike refers to
Irish families also emigrated to England throughout the ages looking for work and brought their dogs with them and most likely brought some English strains back with them also
It's also quite possible that during the time when english settlers took up residence in Ireland that they brought their dogs of type with them



the dogs of this type at that time, were common in both Ireland and the U.K

Old Family Dogs, Bulldogs, Dudley Terriers, Staffordshires, Blue Pauls, were imo just some of the names given to these dogs of similar type
they were all basically bulldogs, the different names were given to the strains/breeds within the breed

there was at least one strain of white bulldog in the early 1800's in England, so I personally doubt the white english terrier x bulldog theory

 

I've always wondered how many pure ( by pure I mean a 90% or greater blood percentage) OFRN dogs are in existence today. I know a large number of these dogs ended up being diverted toward the show ring. Another question, do the Castillo line of dogs have a heavy influence of Hemphill blood running through their veins? Lastly, what was the average weight of a OFRN dog, I've been told that they were on the smaller side (the first dogs that came over to the US) but then others say they were actually larger dogs (60-70+ lbs range). When they arrived here, were they selectively bred to be larger? Any info appreciated.

 

there are no records of most things in ireland at this time unless it was very important, there are newpaper articles on dog fights being stopped, bullbaiting and other blood sports, but unlike in uk there was not one book written on bulldogs in ireland, not surprising as there was only a handfull of books done on dogs mostly on gundogs who ware owned by the gentry

 

Glad to hear. Water for sure--and glad to hear you are back to work, and school too? That is good...relieves a lot of stress for sure.. and will keep your mind sharp. I'll shoot you an email sometime soon.

 

I understand your take. I am just shooting in the dark here, cause I'm no photograph expert, as you seem to be lol . When was the camera even invented? Any typical Irish imigrand could likely not afford one were they even in a price range the normal family coulf afford? Just a thought.
I'd not believe "everything you read". Time and understanding will prove to be your best asset on your journey.

I also would like to add, if you can tell about my dogs, by their photos, you have to be right.
Yank this, yank that...as you will. If you would like to come see what my dogs like to do, than I invite you to come check em out. Sure can tell a lot from a photo. you lack are nieve.. My dogs are not weight pull dogs, but one would do awesome at it. I am a working man, and only have so much time. I have one, that I hope will do well in a show ring. He is 2 yrs old and may not be able to be propperly handled in a show ring, but I am going to give it a shot.
Lets see your dogs fella. I obviously struck your cord and now you think down talking my photos is gonna make you look like you know something. You know nothing of my dogs besides what you may have read from here. I post the pictures I like on the net, for people to see. Sorry my dogs dont fit your "opinion" of how a "sporting dog" should look.

Did I say my dogs are better than anyone elses?
My dogs are just normal bulldogs. No titles at this point, but mayby in the future when I have absolute time to train.

by the way - yis means "your insane stupit"

 

Good take. Very good way to put it and awesome views. Wish more would read before posting stupid shit.
This guy can also tell how good your dog is, by photo, or just by ponderind about it, never actually being around the animals, catch weight or not.

 

.
insistence want make it so, WHITE is a traditional BULL DOG colour, as it is in the stafford, as is skewbald and piebald pattern , have another go

your last reply it was brindle....have another go

it is impossible to trace the bull dog past britian, have another go

nope, have another go

i didnt , have another go

i did, hence the corrections , have another go

irrelevant to the questions you avoided answering, have another go

facts in context, have another go

 

^^^^ Man it's too funny watching this thread. You have these guys going back and forth with Ironline. You idiots realize that you are bickering to the most successful OFRN breeders of all time don't you? You punk ass green horns are in over your heads.

 

Why is talking history always ending in a mess ?
I give a shit about who is right or who is wrong, as long there is something 'new' to learn. It's more about getting some new (new to some or any) 'facts' about old history. Or about getting the facts straight.
I pretty much appreciate the fact, that Mike is talking with all of us at all.
Guys, talking to legends with great knowledge and a great love for this breed on open boards like this one is for free !
To those people with more knowledge on these dogs as Mike has, please get in touch with me (pm). I still have a couple of questions ? lol
Mike, Old Family always means Old Family Red ? There was "no" black nose Old Family dogs at all ?
Can this be so easy ? Really ?
Now let's take this as a basic fact. Irish Old Family bred dogs are a pure breed of reds. Other Irish strains with a black nose ? Or is it always and only about Old Family Reds ?
If it is that simple, then all we have to do first is to look at peds and pics for reds and blacks.
Just post a ped of your choice and then let's 'read' through the ped step by step. 'Reading' a ped is like reading a story and learning from the 'well made' breedings.
What about a black dog known as a 75% OFR(N) bred dog ? What happened in such a case ?
Would you call this still OFR(N) ?
What about them red/red littermates of this black dog from the same breeding ?
A cross has been made, no doubt. So we are looking for the main line (75%) and for the cross line (25%).
This should be simple to see, as long as there is only 1 cross. Means the top or the bottom side (50%) is 'pure' and the other side makes 'the cross' with half of the cross (25%) going back to the pure stuff of the 'main' line
It's harder to recognize what is what if there is more then just 1 cross breeding. 'Crossing into a family' often requires more then just 1 cross breeding. Often 2, 3 or 4 cross breedings of the same kind are needed to get the best out of that 'cross-line'. Those cross breedings should 'click' each time.
Let's check the available info about the old dogs/strains/families. Colby, Lightner, Feeley, Corcoran, Shipley, Tudor, Corvino ...
Red means Irish, black means cross or pure 'without' OFR.
Should be interesting. If that's making sense at all. ??
Mike, if you could go back in time, would you like to ask them 'oldtimers' a couple of questions which belong to the OFRs and breeding in general ?
I would like to know about all the questions that you still may have and whom you would ask about. Do you still have some 'open' questions ?
Thanks for your time.

 

what drugs are u on, iv read this twice, still cant make out what u mean

 

@Stickler

If you read earlier, all modern combat dogs have OFRN in them. This is why on occasion a red nose pup is born among 2 black nose dogs.
Now, for a black nosed dog to be 75% OFRN, this would mean one of the parents were OFRN, the other a black nose.
Two OFRN dogs cannot produce a black nose dog. It's a genetics thing.
Now, are there any "pure" OFRN dogs? No such thing. OFRN is a strain distinguished by their color. They are only pure in the sense they are A(p)BT's.
The Old Family Reds were simply a fighting "breed" used as a foundation of the A(p)BT, particularly the OFRN strain.
The "other" foundations were already mentioned, i.e., the black and tans, and Blue Pols, etc.
Another way of looking at it, concerning "purity" in terms of the OFRN dogs is how far back every dog has the red nose.
The tightest bloodlines of the OFRN are those with the fewest crosses....a continuing family of dogs...
The further out one goes, the further from the original source on hand, the Old Family Reds...

 

heres an old video from the 1920,s this was in Dublin, Ireland and not a bulldog to be seen. now if they could video and photograph these dogs why couldnt they of recorded bulldogs ?this is only 30 odd years since the likes of the colbys where importing dogs.

RABBITS AND BADGERS - British Path