old english bulldogs

This was an interesting read! I'm new here so i will toe the line and watch my typing, LOL!! But just after reading through this post, it seems that some have the idea the the EB and the OEB are the same. PERSONALLY (meaning just my 2 cents) there are some that are very similar because all the breeders are doing is crossing and EB and AB, slapping an OEB tag on it and bam! BUT, there are some OEBs out there that are very capable of working in both the weight pull and personal protection venues. I believe that David Leavitt should have patented(?) the OEB name back in the '80s or so.

I came to the game-dog site because people don't hold back and will, for the most part, give you an honest answer to most questions. Plus i like to see some true APBT that are on here! But not all OEBs are the same, just as all pitbulls aren't the same. And IMO, the OEB is not a breed of dog but more of a type. If that makes sense.

 

in the south of england there are a few enthusiasts who have been breeding healthy ,natural reproducing and fairly capable english bulldogs for at least 25-30 years . i have seen some of these dogs and credit where it is due .they have the breeds interest at heart ! not like the money grabbing kc muppets ,who should be charged with animal cruelty imo !

 

i was out with a friend with his new time bull dog ,at least 70pounds 20 inch brindle nice, the police stopped us and said "what the fucks that" he is that kind of dog !

 

Came across this thread and thought I'd share some pics and a video.
Although, they are hard to find, Healthy athletic bulldogs do exist. I have one of the most athletic bulldogs you will ever see. See is almost 5 now and has only been to the vet to get up to date on shots.
pictures when she was 1.5 years


Video of Sara at 4 years old
[video=youtube;yMlZbB5aTFo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMlZbB5aTFo[/video]
Here is her son, he is registered as an Olde Bulldogge. His dad is an iron dog champion.

The problem I see with the AKC Bulldogs is that most of the AKC bulldogs dont even meet the AKC standard. Bitches should weigh 40 pounds and males should weigh 50 pounds. Everybody just keeps breeding the fat ones.
www.privatestockbulldogs.com

 

Here is a pick of a bulldog from 1889, it is said to have been Yale's mascot.

If we look at where the bulldog started and where it is now its shocking

 

And in that pic your allready seing show influences check out some old prints online there easy to find just do a google search.

 

It's crazy is what it is. I see people post pictures all the time with these bulldogs and half of them there teeth are sticking out when the dogs mouth is closed. It's a major fault for any bull breed and they still breed the dog. Teeth belong inside the dogs mouth! It's crazy. And the other half are so fat they can hardly walk. I went to this one bulldog show and most needed the handlers assistance to get on a platform that was a foor off the ground.

 

foot......

 

Hi all, just wanted to post some facts about the OEB...

First, the UKC has announced that the Olde English Bulldogge will be officially recognized as a purebred dog as of Jan 1, 2014.
http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/News/UnitedKennelClubAnnouncest04122013105308AM

Second, the OEBKC has been enrolled in the CDHPR (sort of like the AKC's FSS) since 2008 and has been working towards this for a long time. The recognition only applies to dogs that can be traced back to Leavitt's original foundation breedings, which took place in the 1970's.

As for health, I've known people with purebred OEB's as old as 18, and of the 4 dogs this family owned none of them passed away at any less than 15. This is certainly on the high-end though. I'd guess that 11-12 is more likely the average. Health issues exist as in any breed, with allergies and knee problems being the main problems. Hip health is quite good. With about a dozen dogs measured by PennHip (most of their database are non-purebred alternative bulldogs) we have seen all ranging about .42-.52, with one instance where successive generations (up to 3 on one bloodline) gradually decreasing, and the youngest scoring .44/.37 just recently. His dam was .47/.33.

These dogs are more than capable at weightpull and agility, and hopefully we can get some UKC folks to give them a try in the near future. I'm hoping to get my girl into rally next spring. She is just about 8 now and I stopped throwing the frisbee around with her a while back, but in her prime it took 2 sessions per day with 30 minutes of hard play to get her energy out, including on hot days pushing into the 90's (though I did scale back those days a bit). Her OB is a bit rusty, but I think that with a bit of cleaning up her fronts and 360 turns she should be fine at novice level.

Video is some old OB, just keep in mind I'm a novice to it myself. Hopefully I'll get out to my first actual competition next year.
[video=youtube_share;Dn5uCrFrXP4]http://youtu.be/Dn5uCrFrXP4[/video]

 

Sorry, didn't realize there was some thread necromancy going on here... Not sure why my video link didn't post either... Maybe this will work

[video=youtube;Dn5uCrFrXP4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn5uCrFrXP4[/video]

 

Your experience w/Oldes has been very different from mine. My ex really liked them, we had quite a few back about 10-15 years ago. I liked them, but found it frustrating that their physical shortcomings (bracycephalic muzzle, excessive bulk) made them prone to over-heating and generally lacking in endurance, despite a nice level of desire and drive. We hip x-rayed probably half a dozen, only one had decent hips. We even had to put down 4-5 month old pups due to extremely poor hip structure. What turned me off to them permanantly was having a young female, due to whelp in a week, collapse at my feet unconscious. By the time we arrived at the vet, she had died, but we tried to save the pups, to no avail. Afterwards the vet examined her body, as we tried to figure out what had gone wrong. As he examined her heart, he commented that it was somewhat malformed. The same w/her liver. The final result, HGE, brought about by gestational diabetes. Just too many things wrong.
Since then, I've talked to David Leavitt on a couple of occasions, as he comes to weight pulls on occasion. When I first spoke w/him, he was trying very hard to get Olde owners to x-ray. I told him my concerns that any breed w/so much EB (75ish% rate of dysplasia) as a foundation was potentially in a really poor position to establish a working gene pool. The next time I saw him, he seemed somewhat discouraged.
I have seen a few working Oldes in weight pull, as there isn't as much of a demand on endurance. I've seen one in agility, but he didn't seem well suited to it. I've met one w/a Schutzhund B or BH. But I personally consider them ill suited to be working dogs, and with their significant health issues, a risk as a family pet. Temperamentally, I really liked most of them.

 

Thanks Leslie, thats really interesting. I'm pretty certain the dogs you had weren't Leavitt line though (please correct me if I'm wrong). Many of the "OEB's" out there are much higher percentage EB than our dogs. We've even had owners come to us with outside dogs and after doing a DNA test found out that what they thought was an OEB was actually a purebred AKC Bulldog.

As for David, his issue has always been implementation. He's tried to force breeders to check hips, but placed himself in charge of evaluations. Once way back when with Ben Campetti and the old crew (Ben told me the story) and again when he started the LBA. Unfortunately David doesn't know how to read an xray, verified by Ben and my own observations of a dog he approved but turned out to be OFA Severe. Now they have a vet doing it who has evaluated hips for the OFA in the past, but he grades all the hips based on a curve of what is good "for a bulldog", and is evaluating all the alternative bulldogs out there side-by-side with the LBA's.

Anyway, I'd probably agree that the breed is ill suited for work with regards to protection. I'm sure you could find some that would be capable, but unlikely to excell when compared to more typically used. For pulling, agility and obedience the dogs can certainly manage to hold their own however. A good OEB won't run a course like a lighter framed dog, but they can do it pretty well. I've had mine play along with a friend's Border Collie and she could keep up speed-wise. But where the BC would turn on a dime at full speed my dog would face-plant trying to match. Just too much m***. This is her at 7.5 y/o.

 

there are a few types off OEB's Leavitt type, hermes type, Victorian type, Renascence type and Olde Tyme Bulldogge and also the Alternative Bulldogge type tis last one is a cross between the other type's

 

Sorry Leigh, ours were definitely Leavitt line dogs. I think I've been up to Campetti's yard, I'm pretty sure we had a few dogs from him. Campetti is only about an hour from where I lived in CT.

Could you clarify this? I've had plenty of AB's, APBT's and Olde's x-rayed, both through OFA and my own vet. I've only used Pennhip once, but I have no major issue w/it. But I don't understand the "good for a bulldog" concept, unless you're saying that what's considered fair/shallow for a non bull breed is considered good for an Olde. If that's the case, I'd take issue w/it. Bulldogs (at least AB's and APBT's) can certainly have "good" and "excellent" hips, compared to all breeds.
And I definitely disagree that a correctly structured Olde could hold it's own in agility. I think they could run a course and qualify, as long as there were lenient course times.
http://www.pbase.com/barryrosen/image/150263207
Here's my agility dog. She turns 8 in July.

 

That is pretty much exactly how they are evaluting them, and I agree with you! I'm not a fan of what he is doing at all. I've seen quite a few xrays from different breeders in the OEBKC and many of them are being evaluted by OFA, PennHIP, and our breeders in Germany have dogs evaluted 100% using a scale they have over there. Good hips are the norm from what I've seen the last 7 years. Its not 100% of course, but the number of dogs that get washed out due to hip xrays is probably quite a bit lower than you would think.

You may be right about agility. Like I said, I know they won't run a course as well as your dog. But again, the difference may be less than you think.

I've met a couple of Ben's dogs and some of what he had 5-6 years ago was a bit too extreme. About 10 years ago he used some frozen semen from Odie with a Walz ***** he had, and produced Rocky (my dogs sire). Despite Ben not checking the hips on his dogs, alot of what Rocky has produced has been checked for several generations now and they are quite good. Supposedly, Odie wasn't the healthiest of dogs, but for whatever reason he seems to have thrown better than himself. Those dogs I mentioned that were living to be 17-18 years old were all owned by a family that were very close to Ben and Karen back in the 80's, and all their dogs came down from Odie as well.

 

While I appreciate the input, for better or worse Leavitt created and named the OEB. Claims otherwise make for good stories over a cold beer, but not much else.

The other "types" you have listed are pretty much all alternative bulldogs. Maybe there are some Victorian folks out there with a small following, I don't really know about where their dogs come from and if there is any truth to it. My guess is that 1 out of 10 people selling a "Victorian" bulldog is telling something close to the truth, with the other 9 having been ****ered into a story when they bought their own dogs.

The RB folks aren't too bad, though I'm hoping they started doing some health checks. Last I knew Chadde was against it... Unfortunately their dogs are pretty much a Hermes line with made-up pedigrees and some crossbreeding for diversity, while trying to keep the look of the main foundation dog. And no one has any idea what went into Greg H's dogs (including Greg...) so I'm not sure where that leaves them.

The sad truth is that anyone can breed anything and call it an OEB, Old Tyme, Valley, etc bulldog and find a registry that will issue them papers. Which is pretty much why we have been pursuing recognition from a registry like the UKC and DNA verifying our dogs for the last 5 years.

 

Cant speak about where you are from but around the midwest the OEB is the opposite of what you guys are explaining which tells me you have no idea what your talking about. In the 1100 to 1800 the origional and I do mean origional bully breed was the olde english bulldog. They were bred for bull baiting. The sport became banned and the breed was turned ibto what is now the English Bulldog. Bred for companionship only and yes there is alot of health problems wuth them. The Oldie on the other hand unless it is been bred down more like an english is a very workable dog. My 4 oldies are very athletic. I dont mean to but in here but I read most of the post and it just seemed like you have forgotten where the bully breed originated from. If it wasnt for the oldies your beloved pit bulls ( Huge fan of the breed so dont take this the wrong way) would not exist.

 

The top uk (upf) dogs a EB aswell mate I seen the dam thing pull nearly 6000lbs under strict upf rules

 

U could say that about cars we all love the old classics but u won't see them in a race with a sate of the art machine because its been adapted to work better at the job so the old classic becomes a fun hobby not a seirous competitor ;-)

 

Very true I just wanted to clear up that the english bulldog was never a work dog. It was the oldie bred to be a companion not a work dog. The EB for the most part is a lazy health problemIinfested breed but it still has a place in the dog world. On the other hand the oldie was and is sopposed to be bred to be a working dog. Now I get that everyone and their brother is breeding mutts and calling them oldies bit loon at where pit bulls has headed. U see some thatare 135lbs and tall as hell . The next page u flip to you see the origional game dog. Dont just point at the oldies and put the bad name on them. They are as much a work dog if not more than the pit if the bloodlines are correct. Its that way wth any breed you look at. Bad breeders is the problem but dont be fooled there are still some of us good guys out there trying to keep it the way its soposed to be. Just sayin