Top dogs in Europe?

Well said Hiker


How did the Balkan / Euro Dogs do in Mexico??????????

 

I simply used the manufacturing analogy to explain what is also happening with game dogs. I've lived in or visited a few different places,....doing so has helped me realize what made/makes America so great-it is the fact that most Americans weren't/aren't generally afraid of new people or ideas and are willing to incorporate them into our daily lives and culture.......regardless of where they originate.

Immigrants bringing their ideas, and they or their American born children mixing them with other ideas they found in the USA is what made us stand apart for a long time. Travel around a bit, and you'll reallly see where a lot of the ideas and products we think of as "strictly American" really started from.

The "out-cross" and "hybrid-vigor" is what made us what we are. Go to most other countries,..even highly developed ones and you'll begin to see what I call "the same twelve people" over and over and over again....same body style, same looks,...it is uncanny,.........I don't see that back home in the USA.

As for game dogs,.....don't forget that a part of the reason why the APBT became what it is was the activities shaped them were legal in the US and outlawed in the UK..........where the dogs started from. It wasn't just American magic and ingenuity that made them.....it was also the ability to legally test run the product,..so to speak...that enabled development of the breed.

Now, for all intents and purposes the same thing that happened in the UK, has happened are happening in the US. It isn't mere coincidence that the rise of the American Bull Terrier took off with the Britain banning dog fighting and animal baiting in 1835. For a time things go deep underground,....but as more laws take hold and harsher penalties are meted out for breaking those laws,....keeping true to the game becomes harder,....despite what we like to believe.

Now, although not legal in some of the areas mentioned....the laws aren't as harsh, testing is much more open,...and quality control much more transparent. There is no denyig that. None. Just check where the videos that are floating around originate from,......good luck trying that shit here.

In the places places where it is legal,...well....pulling paper champions out of one's ass is a whole lot more difficult.......and has been stated here,....many of the foreign shoppers of proven working stock are no longer buying American,.....and it isn't just because of shipping distance. Like almost everything else American, there are countries out there making cheaper copies that work just as well (or better) with a whole lot less red tape and hassle required to get them

So, be a proud American,......but not uninformed one who believes that all great things start in New York harbor and end in San Diego. It ain't so,..........believe me, I know,.....and so do a lot of folks here,....even if they won't tell you so.

And seriously,......do you really think that tight inbreeding, battle crosses and everything else dogs started with the APBT in the USA,....come on,...the name Bull and Terrier should tell you something,.....hell man,....crossing the best individuals of different breeds to get the best fighting dog is a real "battle cross";....breeding two fifth cousins whose multiple common ancestors don't show up for a few generations is just really getting a little vigor back while talking much smack.

Few things are as "all American" as we would like to believe,............not even apple pie....sorry.

 

HCH,
I understand what you're writing and believe me, I'm not jingoistic. I understand the melting pot of hybrid vigor when it comes to Americans and that's the reason why we are able to excel. All your points are valid, and I agree, other than a couple of parts.

I do agree that the pooches that are in other parts of the world, i.e., south America, as well as eastern Europe are good dogs and being matched openly so just without the constraint of being "illegal" their lines will improve dramatically. My whole point from my original post is, don't ever discount American ingenuity. We figure out how to accomplish things even under extreme government intervention, and certain Americans will always fly in the face and refuse to become sheople (part sheep, part people) and do what they want. To change gears, I'll give an example, I live in so CA and the cannabis industry is still federally illegal, and on the most part still being prosecuted on a state level even though with very little success, and the cannabis coming out of the west coast of America can't be held a candle to. It blows doors compared to the stuff that is being done in Amsterdam. And getting seed stock from there is easy enough, but the people in the know don't touch that stuff, as we have created stuff that has become legendary. The point is if the blokes from eastern Europe think that we Americans have become complacent when it comes to testing our pooches then they are mistaken, and that's just plain simple. Maybe in your neck of the woods the guys you know are no longer actively testing, but that doesn't equate that that is indicative of the entire US dog enthusiast.

As far as super tight bred or using an out as a catalyst for hybrid vigor battle crosses, yes, I stick to my guns on that one. This boils down to the ability to keep records and openly communicate with a large subset of people keeping records of how their pooches are bred. So, prior to US the sport of dog v dog was around but not to the extent that the US enjoyed all these years. The fact that the sport grew here with a greater # of people sharing ideas and learning off one another. When people are able to openly communicate, just because of technology , i.e., keeping better records, and able to travel further between different areas- by use of car it can only make for better improved dogs because the ability to share ideas. I will continue to scratch when it comes to stating that Americans created the ultimate dog by super inbreeding and learning that it can increase your chances of creating an amazingly durable super refined animal to get the job done.

Just for sake of argument, I would appreciate it if you would provide examples of super tight bred dogs prior to Americans doing it.

One way or the other, I enjoyed this dialogue.

YIS,
SM

 

Two great posts gentlemen, thanks for putting into words what Iam not smart enough to configure on my own.

 

Over 100 years of breeding, i hope we refined the animal.
Refined the animals ability, but there has always been game dogs.

 

very good dialogue between stosman and hch. I agree with most what both yall said.Two very good points of view and well explained.Ahh threads smell good without the bs

 

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????what???????????????????????????..........realy??????..well ii do know what else...!

 

the funniest load of bollox ive every read.

 

Dude,...I understand what you are saying........and I agree with some of it,......
As far as super tight inbreeding goes,...all I have to say is...from a few Asian wolves we created Shar Peis, Dachshunds, Borzois, Bulldogs and hundreds of other different breeds that are all still genetically (if not physically) able to interbreed...................if that isn't the proof of deep inbreeding,...I don't know what is. I know what you mean to say,......but believe me, as far as breeding animals in general, dogs in particular, goes there isn't anything new going on now that hasn't been going on for thousands of years.

OK.....better communication and travel....I agree.....better record keeping,.......I'll give you that,......a better scientific understanding of how genes work, etc.....I agree there too,......but the basics on how to breed dogs have not change,.....breed the two that do what you want the best,.....cross your fingers and wait about 63 days...... We can x-ray,...sonogram,...and test them in utero like we could not do before,.....but none of this has fundamentally made for a better dog of any breed,....you still have to hope, wait and see.

As for what's going on in Cali,...............Amsterdam had better not sleep on y'all,............but that ability to legally test run the products with less hassle still makes the difference. But that's changing fast.

 

in resume, best dogs and breeders in Europe with really selective breeding ?

 

best dogs come from canada

 

Dog fighting is not legal in europe, you must mean eastern europe and no way are the dogs there better than the US dogs.

 

That's exactly right.

 

That's exactly right. Some CHs and a 5xW went to Serbia from here in Oz. Good dogs are everywhere and anywhere.

 

Great dogs are made? lol - wow - so clueless
you cant "make" a dog a winner - Winners are born , every idiot knows that

 

Sorry to correct you, but YOU are acctually the one who is clueless. A pit dog never becomes great without a good dogman behind him. Sure, a lot of it is in the genes, but i'll bet my last dollar that if you got gr ch buck as a puppy along with the rest of his litter he would never ended up becoming the great dog that he was.

Its a long way from having the tools, to acctually buildning yourself a mansion

 

That proves that there mouths are just like there cars if it ain't American made it don't perform! Lol!

 

That is correct true dog men are hard to find it's a lot of bull doggers but few dog men! It's all on a dogs keep that makes the difference. I have faced dogs that were bred better but do to my schooling, experience beat the tools!

 

I am from albania*ballkan)I've a pit American mother-italian dad-is 6 years old,Come if you live in the Balkans with your best,,,I am sure you will remain satisfied by American dogs(AIZEN&TUFY dog.And the result do PUBLIC For the pleasure of our friends.

 

:tdogwalk2:I AM FROM ALBANIA,,,,You have the right