AmStaff vs APBT ...?

the closest thing ive seen to "evidence" is in art. there are paintings that show dogs resembling APBTs that are hundreds of years old. as for Strattons theory, id have to disagree. there are too many references to "bull and terriers" the past 150 years or so

 

The Staffordshire Bull Terrier was recognized by the English Kennel Club in 1935. It wasn't until 1972 that the American Kennel Club recognized them.

Dreamer

 

I don´t find that theory likely either.

I don´t know if it came from Stratton from the beginning.

Yes, first registration was what I meant, not first registration by an American kennel club.

 

No, it's not, but it's when they became "known" as belonging to one "breed" and organized. Before a registry, they are often known by more than one kind of regional or local "names".

Yes, whether a registry is good or bad for a "breed" is arguable.

The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is simply what the old bull and terriers (or half and half) became in England in 1935 when it was recognized and registered by the English Kennel Club.

The American Pit Bull Terrier is simply what the old bull and terriers (or half and halfs) that were imported to THIS country became in 1898 when it was recognized and registered by the UKC and then later under the AKC as the American Staffordshire Terrier.

And yes, both the Am Staf and Staffy Bull have their sort of underground, "working" dogs that are off the "registry" radar...

Dreamer

 

ahh so the debate gets even more interesting

 

don't think i seen they were the same breed at one time until they separated them(amstaffs and staffs). so no they aren't the same .

 

I agree, they aren't the same. Sorry if I was unclear. Am Staffs (and therefore the Pit Bulls before them) and Staffy Bulls DID arise from the same group of bull and terrier dogs that originated in the British Isles, but the bull and terriers were bred along different enough lines in THIS country to be considered a different breed from the bull and terriers that remained behind in England. They STARTED OUT being more alike, but separate breeding on either side of the pond led to what would be eventually considered different breeds.

I have a book with pictures of English Kennel Club Staffordshire Bull Terriers from the 40s and it's difficult to tell them from the smaller American Pit Bull Terriers of the time. They had leg and muzzles back then...not the "froggy" dogs we see today in the Staffordshire Bull Terrier ring...


Dreamer

 

Here's how I know it: After bull baiting was outlawed in the UK around 1835 or so, bulldogs began being crossed to terriers for the sport of dog fighting. These crosses were originally known as half & halfs, bull terriers or just pit dogs. Eventually they began being called Staffordshire Bull Terriers after the area where they originated & Irish Staffordshire Terriers in Ireland. Both can still be found today in the UK.

Both English & Irish strains were brought to the US with their owners in the mid to late 1800s. The breed was bred back up to a slightly bigger size. In the US the breed went by the new names Yankee Terrier & Rebel Terrier in addition to the old names of half & half, bull terrier & pit dog. When the UKC was founded in 1898 Chauncy Bennett gave the breed the official name of American Bull Terrier (the "Pit" part was added later).

In 1936 the AKC took in the now named American Pit Bull Terrier, but frowned on the "pit" part of the name. They wanted to go w/ Bennett's original name of American Bull Terrier, but the English Bull Terrier folks threw a fit about that, so the AKC settled on the name Staffordshire Terrier.

When the AKC recognized the original Staffordshire Bull Terrier in 1975, they changed the name of the US version of the dog to American Staffordshire Terrier & left the UK version with the original name of Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

So I guess if we want a chronological time line you'd have...

Staffordshire Bull Terrier (original pit dog not show dog) begat the APBT, who in turn begat the AST.

At least that's how I read it. Hope this helps.

 

PEOPLE get confused because of one thing the damn registries before the registries there were no official breeds a dog that was used for bull baiting was a bull dog, a dog that fought in the pit was a pit bull when the pit bulls came to america american's made a revolution making these pit bulls more durable, easier to condition and train, the pit bulls gameness stepped up a knotch...that is why the best pit bulls too of other countries came from america...
we need to take away the registry pre registry there were pit bulls amstaff's came after pit bulls that is for sure and are a skeleton of what a pit bull truly is...ONLY in america amstaff's can be registered as pit bulls...other countries THEY recognize that they are two breeds for one simple fact THEY ARE BRED FOR DIFFERENT REASONS...they might look alike but they are not the same dog...and that is from inside out...The whole core of APBT is gameness in which no other dog is bred for APBT is a step up from working dogs. Other countries you breed a registered apbt to amstaff that is a mutt and cannot be registered even in the ring they are shown in the same ring as seperate breed
And yes SBT were used as pit dogs as well they were not the original pit dog i do not believe in that...because also the dog we know today as Boston Terrier were used in pit as well.. The fact of the matter as far as durability ability to heal and recover ability to be versitile and gameness the APBT stands out as the best combat dog best pit dog....

My UKC dogs although registered as APBT i see them as amstaff al hough my amstaff have drive compared to most "apbt" in UKC...they are Amstaff's they were bred for conformation not gameness and my lil puppy bitch has more gameness then all my damn ukc curs put together...on top of that and when I speak with people I say that although they are registered APBT i speak on the differences between my UKC "apbt" and my ADBA apbt...

anyways I think we should push it for UKC to be amstaffs I think most people won't mind since most people now have DUAL ukc/akc dogs