Swinford?

Has anyone had in encounters with this breed?

 

ok, I used the search button. LOL!

 

Bandog-yes
"Swinford" Bandog- no

my very first dog all of my own was a Bandog from working lines

 

i just googled them and they seem pretty good workers

 

http://www.swinfordbandog.com/

I've heard they're good dogs. They're Tosa, ABPT (some Sorrells line), and English mastiffs crosses. But they are EXPENSIVE!

 

hmmm,never heard anyone mention any Tosa blood, or Sorrells blood for that matter, not w/ the breedings actually made by J.Swinford at least.

 

i thought the late dr swinford was using rough gamebred APBT males and female neos from good imported stock. i personally would like to take a quality APBT male to a female fila and make one hell of a hunting/guard dog. the way i understood it though, the english mastiff wasnt aggressive enough, so thats why the neo was selected by swinford. i have long been fascinated with the bandog idea, just never bought the mastiff. someday i will though.

 

Thought he was talking about the kennel itself. But from that same site I pulled:

 

yup- right there in the last line "Thor and many of these other types of Bandogs were not from the Swinford program. "

Swinford used English Mastiff x APBT. some other tried these types of crosses aswell, hence where the Neopolitain and other Mastiff breeds were used w/ the APBT

 

i ve got semencics book , but i didnt particularly like it. now i got a reason to dig it out again, and reread it.

 

Not a good idea the Semencic book gladiator dogs,or the world of fighting dogs which highlights the Swinford breeding plan was filled with mis information and inspired much controversy and dis/trust in the man"Carl Semencic"
mainly because a photo of Bantu being rolled against a rottwieler was used,apperantly these dogs were game tested,jack Kelly said they weren't game dogs but they would fight,a modern day breeder from Portugal who keeps neo's,apbts'and bandogs say's he tests them all and on average his bandogs go for 45 minutes,neos about 10 minutes,Ive also heard the modern day breeder,lee Robinson say his dogs will do battle and will give his game bred dogs a run for there money,go figure.
The modern day bandog program is led by Joseph Lucero using 'pure bred" bandog stock,or in other words breeding bandog too bandog with no out side blood from other breeds.this is the same breeder that's dogs were featured in the remake of the incredible hulk and featured in the dogs that protect 2 part video and appear on fear factor doing "pp".
I owned a very similar dog,presumably ddb/am staff,dog didn't make it past 3 years of age before being put down for extreme aggression problems although he loved me.great home guardian dogs or as described by there fanciers,close quarter combat dogs.
my old boy cane,r.i.p



and this dog,jaws of life is in my opinion the prototype of a bandog a lucero bred dog,

 

Yeah just dont buy into the hype surrounding Lee's dogs.He breeds a lot of dogs and sells them for a large sum.Read into that what you want.I have nothing against him just dont buy the hype and for the amount that has been bred never heard anything oustanding about them.Joe Lucero on the other hand is a household name as far as Bandogs go and his dogs are the $hit and have been generation bred for longer than any other program around and still going strong.As Keith said they have appeared in the remake of the hulk and also on fear factor.
Joe is as hard to get hold of as god himself,he likes his privacy.In a way I like that as he doesnt hype his dogs all over the net like some do and he doesnt advertise and still has a waiting list 3 years long.

Bandogs are hit and miss,depends who is breeding them and how good their stock is in the beginning.Do your research if you are looking for one.I have owned a few over the years,some good some not so good.

Be careful what you wish for.Fila's are better left in a pure form.I have seen the cross and the ones I have seen were some of the most man aggressive dogs you would ever want to see and quite frankly dangerous,especially in the wrong hands.Breeding is a crap shoot you never know what you will get but the end product is also dependent on what effort you put into the dog in rasing it and Im sure I dont need to tell you that.Those dogs do make a good guard and a good hunting dog but no good if you have a lot of visitors.Maybe if you live way out yonder and not planning on having to many folks around.
The breed of the dogs isnt as important as the quality of the individuals used.That being said I still prefer a male pit over a female Neo and the best ones I have ever seen were bred this way.Not saying you wont get quality dogs from other breedings.Just my honest humble opinion.

 

I have to agree with you on the Fila issue, moonshine.

I would leave the Fila alone in it's pure form. They are one of the breeds that has not changed too much with time thanks to people leaving them alone. However, the show circuit is slowly beginning to ruin the dogs, and from what I' heard, their temperaments are going to shit as well (nervy, not confident, HA versus being smart enough to distinguuish a threat from a non-threat that is just new to them, etc.)

I love Filas and I love the APBT, but those are 2 breeds I will leave alone to just be themselves.

 

I own two swinfords, they are out of loyalguard kennels, johnny out of loyalguard kennels and lee out of chimera kennels use the same english mastiff, however, johnny out of loyalguard kennels, likes to use performance bred bulldogs under the englishmastiff, rather than the game pits like lee, lee is now breeding generation dogs where as johnny is just now getting his program under way..... my male swinford is english mastiff on top and pitbull on bottom, very very human aggresive, but also very very good temperment, athletic as hell to, i can have guest over as long as they are welcomed, this also came after lots of pp training, the most important thing a dog can learn from pp training is the diffrence between a threat and a non threat, i am still training him to this day, let me uplaod some pictures for you guys..... as far as gameness goes, i wouldnt know how game my dogs are, my male has bit and chased a male rottie off the front yard when he was only 9 months old, these are some pics of him doing pp work at 13 months of age, he is about 120 and still filling out......OK well i cant figure out how to upload the pictures from my computer, so what ever lol

 

Pengomifan which bitch is your dog or dogs from?Was it heartbreaker?
I thought it was a good cross and I do like that male OEM they used.He is a rare dog as far as OEM's go.I know Lee says its easier to find good OEM than it is Neo's but I have seen more $hit OEM's than Neo's and I have seen some very good Neo's but then again we live a long way away and it all comes down to ones experience.Only thing I can say is breeding the larger male over the smaller bitch you generally get smaler dogs in my experience and what I have seen anyway.Not that size matters but in a guard dog I want something that is going to stop the fight real quick not fight all day.Interested to see pics of your dog if you will post them.

 

Ill agree with the comment that there seems to be better neo stock in the territorial aggression department with desire to commit to the target rather than alert at it, then again neos and oem's aren't really my bag,this comes from limited experience.
Although "lands cesar" may be a exception,sure is huge.
I think it says something when Lee's most acclaimed dog Levi is actually part neo and has no OEM in him and was bred by another breeder who used neo stock somewhere down the line.I do believe he should be the prototype in the modern day swinford program although this is my opinion and i have little or nothing to do with it.
I am impressed with loyal guard kennels "macho" since i like a bandog with a little beef to it.Thats one gripe i would have with the chimera dogs in photo[haven't seen them in person]they seem a Little slim or light boned as compared to Lucero dogs or Swinford dogs of the past or Loyal guard kennels,thunderdome etc,jmo as well.
Keith.

 

<!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> Hello. I received notice of this topic some time ago, but I am just now getting around to replying. Sorry for taking so long on this matter. To aid in discussion, I will "number" my points of discussion should someone wish to ask about any of my comments. My comments were stimulated by reviewing what has been mentioned so far in this discussion.
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1. Carl Semencic - Most people that comment on Semencic's book make negative remarks, but seldom do these same people ever put forth the efforts to truly correct what they have issues with or give "props" for what they agree with. The truth is his books cover too many breeds of dogs for him to be accurate on everything. Although they certainly favor the APBT, one can't expect perfection when discussing as many breeds as Carl Semencic covered in his books. I give him props for doing what he has done, but I also agree that some of this information is incorrect. I will NOT address any of the information in his book about any breed except the "Bandog" because the truth is I wouldn't be qualified to do such. I will keep my comments on his work entirely about the Bandogs, as this is the area I am versed in by history, research and education, and experience. Carl and I have done business together and have discussed many things about the Bandogs. He acquired his information about Swinford's program indirectly and unfortunately his work in "The World of Fighting Dogs" misled people about the Swinford's program. This occurred because in his book he didn't properly differentiate between Swinford's work and other programs. Yes, many of the Bandogs in Semencic's book were of Swinford's breeding, but there were many others that were not and this should have been more clearly specified. Thor for example was NOT a Swinford bred dog, yet when one reads Semencic's book they get the impression that he was. That dog was owned by Kevin Covas and was purchased originally from a breeder that was found in a newspaper add. My information comes directly from the man that owned that dog and that provided the photos to Semencic. The dog Thor, that he owned in the 70-80's, was of Neapolitan and APBT origin. Thor was put down by Kevin for snapping at his son, a behavior that is unacceptable from any dog no matter how good the dog may be in other areas. Kevin bought a dog from our program I would guess about 6-7 years or so ago. Also, Semencic was informed about the breeds used in both Swinford's program as well as other programs, and yet he presented this as "unclear" probably for 2 reasons...1. he got the different programs mixed up while 2. writing a book that covers many breeds. I say this because I don't want to suggest that his own interest in the Neapolitan caused him to overplay the Neapolitan influence in Swinford's work, although I wonder about that as well. Semencic never owned a Swinford bred dog or any other Bandog for that matter. He acquired his knowledge through Martin Liebermann and Kevin Covas, both of who I have discussed this with EXTENSIVELY. I have done nearly $20,000 worth of K9 related business with Martin and it would be impossible to log all the hours I have in researching Swinford's work even just with him, much less the other people that I have acquired MUCH information from.
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2. John Swinford - Over the years, I have acquired dozens and dozens of photos, slides, and documents from the original Swinford program. This includes the breed standards (both rough and final drafts), breeding practices, views of protection work, journal articles, reports, newspaper articles, personal letters between various vets that owned the dogs, and even personal letters from his parents as well as they too discussed the dogs. We have work that was done by Swinford himself on his kitchen table and this information has been provided exclusively to us by various people that were DIRECTLY involved in the project. In other words, today, there is no doubt we have documented the truth about what occurred in the Swinford program. A great deal of this information will be released within a publication, but not until it is properly copywrite protected. Our reason for this is because many of the Swinford photos and documents that are in circulation today have been misrepresented or not properly referenced...including documents that we ourselves released several years ago. We are waiting to release any further information on the Swinford program until it is properly copywrite protected in order to prevent this occurring again with the remaining documents. <o></o>
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3. The Swinford Bandog - Swinford primarily used game tested and game bred APBT dogs and working class English Mastiffs. That said, they did have some breedings that had Neapolitan influence and others with Great Dane influence, and although this other mastiff types played a role in Swinford's own work, he indeed focused mostly on the EM for his mastiff influence. And, he got plenty of ability from such dogs. The biggest reason other mastiffs were used was because finding good mastiffs of any breed is hard, but over time he came to the conclusion that his best dogs were of APBT and EM origin. Now, one other misrepresentation that needs to be clarified on his work is the Bull Terrier was NEVER used in his "Swinford Bandog" program. He did own a Bull Terrier for a while, but that dog was never part of Swinford's Bandog breeding program. Also, part of this rumor may come from the fact that the game bred APBT has often been referred to as a "Bull-n-Terrier." Swinford indeed produced many great dogs, but Swinford died before his program developed into what could be referred to as a "pure bred." For this reason, many people say he was a failure, but IMO that assumption is absurd. The fact is he produced many great dogs. He only reached 3 generations in his program, and although after his death some continued to work on the project for a while these other programs did eventually pass and fade away. All work will eventually fade away, so instead of judging the success of failure based upon the view of "did it last" I instead judge the success of it by the quality of the product. The fact is Swinford produced some great dogs during his program. And, another fact is the quality and success of his work has influenced many other Bandog programs over the decades.<o>
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4. The Neapolitan vs. the English Mastiff - The truth is both types of dogs can be great or junk. It is more important to judge the individual dog than it is the breed. It is the TRAITS to perform that one should look for. Unfortunately, both breeds are plagued with problems. In my life, I have only come across about 5 English Mastiffs that were "breed worthy." Eclipse, my now gone female EM was the finest EM I have ever seen. And as good as Caesar is, Eclipse was a superior dog no doubt about it. I wish she was still alive today, as I would certainly use her in my program still. She was bold, super strong, had solid drives, was very tough, had solid nerves, moved well, was structurally sound, and as crazy as it may sound being she was an EM...she had endurance too. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to find EM's like her, as most are cowardly in nature, lack drive, are unsound, have no energy, and despite their size they can often be pushed around easier than one might think. Also, it is very difficult to find good Neapolitans. My experience with Neapolitans has been they are one of the laziest breeds of dogs in existence...lacking drive and are structurally unsound, and handicapped within their own cripple and distorted bodies. Many have also have nerve issues, which I have seen displayed in two ways...1. redirecting aggression or displaying rank drive within their family, or 2. suffering from separation anxiety when isolated from their owners. That said, I would not be against the idea of using a good Neapolitan in a Bandog program if it is a good representation of a WORKING MASTIFF. Notice, I said WORKING mastiff and not English or Neapolitan. The breed of mastiff matters less than the traits of the mastiff. That said, it has been my experience that when comparing the best to the best, the English Mastiff has been superior, but this shouldn't be distorted to mean that a poor example of an English mastiff is better than a good example of a Neapolitan because that certainly is NOT the case. "A good dog is where you find it" and this statement is possibly more true with mastiffs than any other breed...as you can go WAY OUT OF YOUR WAY to LOOK AND RESEARCH to find a good mastiff and still come home empty handed after years of turning all "prospects" away for their inability to perform. In the mastiff world, I have come to the conclusion that less than 5% of either breed are any good, be it English or Neapolitan...or even French or German for that matter. Among Tosa or Boerboels, I might would say the odds are better...possibly as high as 10-20%.
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5. The APBT vs. the American Bulldog (or other types of Bulldogs) - I prefer the APBT. I believe it is actually stronger than the Bulldog even though it may not be as "bulky" because strength is composed of more than just muscle mass. It also is composed of desire, agility, leverage, speed, heat tolerance, and stamina. Plus, the APBT has improved health over the Bulldogs. Not to say one can't use the Bulldog and get good results, because one certainly can. Also, the Am. Bulldog products are generally going to be larger than dogs produced from APBT origin, but that shouldn't be a surprise. For example, as mentioned earlier by someone earlier, Johnny of LGK's has obtained some Swinford dogs and an English Mastiff from us and bred them to some Bulldog crosses to produce some nice results. He respectfully referred to those dogs as "Bandogs," not Swinfords, because of their Bulldog influence since we don't use the Am. Bulldog in the Swinford program. Unfortunately, Johnny's up and coming stud, Mammoth, passed away this last year. Johnny produced Mammoth by breeding a Bulldog cross named Macho with one of the female Swinfords he got from us named Thin-Ice (which was Preacher-Man's littermate sister). Unfortunately, Johnny never produced multiple generation Bandogs so his Bandog program never really got established, and now working as a K9 officer he is greatly cutting back on his breeding programs, including his Bandog program. I wish him nothing but the best and in fact in our last conversation mentioned to that this downsizing may help him focus on the best he has to offer. What I mean by that is if he stays with his project I wouldn't be surprised if what he produces in the future may be better than everything he has done prior to this point.
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6. Levi - Levi was a great dog. He worked very hard...and was loved by all. He certainly played a significant role in our program, but let me clarify that we have certainly produced better dogs by 1. breeding him to females that improved Levi's weak points (Bullette), and by 2. developing additional lines of entirely unrelated stock (Preacher-Man and his relatives, and also APBT x Tosa crosses). Our primary foundation dogs would include Preacher-Man and Bullette. Preacher-man has no Levi influence in him at all, but is composed of Sorrells Captain Skip and Eclipse, meaning Preacher is entirely composed of APBT and EM. We also have other dogs that were also all around superior dogs that were composed of APBT x Tosa. The future of our program is based upon Preacher-Man, Lucile, Chief x Bandit (Chief is Preacher's half brother and Bandit is Preacher's littermate sister), Bullette, and Linebaugh. The Tate and Lynn influence keeps the APBT x Tosa outcross alive that we need and has worked well to improve upon Levi as well.<o>
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7. The "gameness" of the dogs - I want to address that when one has MANY MANY MANY dogs for many years, things can happen. This can be a teacher. We now have a laid level of security to prevent such altercations that secures even the most driven and capable dogs and prevents such. Yes, these dogs have so much power and drive, and more than enough endurance that they can be serious trouble for many APBTs, but I don't condone such activities and personally find such activities as abusive, unfitting, costly, and inconvenient. <o></o>
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If anyone has any questions to any of my comments, feel free to post them here or you can email me at chimerakennels@msn.com or Lee@chimerakennels.com <o>
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Lee Robinson<o></o>
M. S. Animal Sciences<o></o>
http://www.chimerakennels.com<o></o>
http://www.swinfordbandog.com<o></o>

 

Do you have an idea of when and where this is coming?
Sounds very interesting.

 

Hey Woody. You wouldn't want to do my a favor? Can you look for a Swinford bandog in one of those books called Dakota? I've been trying to figure out which Semencics book he is in as I know the dog personally and raised a litter of his pups as my ex owned the bitch he was bred to. I was told he was in one of those books and I'd like to order it, but I don't know which book it is.

 

If I had to guess...I would say in 3 years or so, but don't hold me to that. It may be sooner, or it may be later. It depends upon many things, which compounds the difficulty of estimating a timeline for release.