staffies and pitbull's history

has ireland had any good staffords ? lol

 

working stafford (not ours) and one of our apbt back in the 90's , she's an alligator /sorrel cross ,22 kg and 20 months old , he's 17 kg and 22 months old. sorry for the quality , i took a photo from a photo.

 

they only got what we gave em ....

 

And sent back better SBT's when they could not compete with APBTs...the majority of what is called good/well bred SBT's in UK are bred from dogs the Irish got rid off

 

I met both the Dochertys some years ago whilst in Derry , they were both pleasant enough but were not working dog men and had no intrest in working dogs . My old late friend Malachy Mc Geowan of the Granemore prefix was the woelds top breeder of Kerry Blues having bred 49 KC English Chapions and Champions in Australie , America , Canada and many other countries he also judged all over the world all terrier breeds . He told me many times he had never seen a game Kerry Blue and he owned them near fifty years , he told me they were noisy all bark and as long as he knew they had never been true game working dogs . I feel people get confused with gameness and aggresiveness especially in the show world , what show stafford people used to call tenacity id call something else , i used to look at the KC shows with the fat dogs facing off barking and gnashing on the ends of the leads while the half witted owners smiled and made comments like isnt Judy or Butch very tenacious , and people used to choose a stud dog because a certain dog was aggressive in the ring , nothing to do with a dog being game .Its a fact that Kerry Blues are not game the odd one fifty years ago might have qualified at a trial but only once and never were they classed as working dogs and were certainly never bred for gameness

 

Ricky, you're right about this dog panting, BUT so wrong about him being a bad winded dog or having KC blood, any of the staffords i had after him would have had to had KC blood as they were all of the desired type except for the EBTxStaff battle cross i had (i'll post a few pics i found of him asap)
The red dog panting in this pic did not have the typical head of a kc dog, his profile view looked like a clone of the dog in the old pic of Joe Mallen with the fighting cock and the old stafford.
The young guy in the pic with him is my cousin, 10 years old then, the place was called Magee Football fields, Now a university campus in Derry, basically it was 3 full size football pitches surrounded with some wild ground, i used to hide a metal gallon & a half rectangle can for auto paint thinner, it was full of water, there was a tree which had a rope, the local kids used it as a swing, that dog would hang on the rope swing for about 40 mins shaking like crazy before he'd take his first break then do it again, id also tie the can to him and jog the boundry of the 3 pitches while he ran along dragging the can for a few laps of all 3 pitches, sometimes the young guy would sit on the can as it slid well on the grass and the dog could pull him quite a bit also, after that we'd throw sticks up a steep bank which the dog had to jump about 4 foot to get on the bottom of the bank then run up the over 45% bank to get it, i'd repeat this until he was exhausted then we might just make him jump for it as a game to finish him off, the pic was taken after a session of that so thats why he's panting, see below, this is the Dog the late Sean Casey started out with, he bought him from me, a big mistake on my part as he was a great little dog, I never had one i liked as much since.

 

I have stated myself that the current dog i have and the big brindle dog obviously had kc dog blood in them, my point was that they are not bred from dogs that would meet today's kc standard simply because they are much bigger and more like the kc dogs of the mid 80s, as for not knowing what gameness is, the first red dog with the young guy in the pics, that was a working strain dog, the battle cross was matched with various dogs before i got him, i know for a fact he'd been matched against various working breeds also by his previous owner, including wheaten bull crosses to English Bullterrier's none of which were much good to him.
Forget essence, Gameness to me = a dog willing to keep going against whatever is in front of him, more so if he's getting the worst of it and keeps trying, that to me is what game means. unless it means somthing different?
I know many on here will then try to break it down further by stating a dog facing a badger is not as game or is not in the same class as a dog in the box against another dog, i get it, i fully understand their way of thinking, to them the box is a longer test and on more of an equal par etc, that's all reasonable, but as i said to me Game = going forward and not backing off whatever he's facing, a Dog that doesent show fear. unless im wrong?

 

NO ! and they are not wanted either , LMFAO.

 

JT i clearly said the Doherty's had green star dogs and cruft qualifiers which should make it clear to anyone they did not work the dogs, But if you met them and saw the standard of their kerry's then you'd have to agree they owned, bred and showed kerry's at the highest level?
I know also one of their dogs ended up in Canada at a massive price, £1000's not £100's,
For a man to have bred so many KC champions to say he never seen a game one, it would seem he was no different than the Doherty's as he wasn't breeding working dogs that became show champions?
I do agree in the show ring they make a lot of noise while trying to get at eachother and the show people call it being tenacious, but unless they actually let those dogs get stuck in they'd never know what the outcome would be? and it's highly unlikely they'd ever let dogs at that value do that, especially in the middle of a show, BUT again it's a word game, the show dog being tenacious is the same as the working dogs wanting to have a go? it's aggression and they're willing but totally untested, and again i will say clearly I am not suggesting for a minute a terrier is a match for a bulldog, but it was the crossing of such firey tempered terriers with bulldogs that produced the bullterrier which is the original reason i brought the subject of these dogs into the conversation in the first place.

 

jt in your opinion what bloodline or individual staffords would you rate today as in 2012

 

Just wanted to say I have seen a couple of fights at shows between staffs that got loose and the ones I saw didn't want to let go of the other dog, looked like they were enjoying themsrlves.

 

You make statements about Kerry blues, a show dog never used for anything , then expect anyone to believe that you'd know what a game dog was...anyone who mentions Kerry blues or Irish terriers and claim they are game, has not a idea what a game dog is

 

Exactly the point im trying to make regarding the terriers also, being raised and trimmed for a show doesent mean they wouldn't be willing, its obvious a show staff isn't going to be fighting 30 minutes later, their not conditioned for it and some can't breathe like the bigger dogs with muzzle & palate issues etc, but show dog or not if they decide to have a go they'll keep at it until stopped or separated.
but i still think the terriers such as the irish terrier and kerry's etc still retain the traits of the same dogs of 30 & 40 years ago.

 

I think the photos show a typical KC Stafford, the one jumping shows the dog has a short muzzle and very heavy ribcage for his size and he looks short and thick, he may not be a show quality Stafford but very typical, and the way he is built he was bound to be bad winded

 

Irish terriers and kerry blues are show dogs for 100 years or more and have not being used in sport in Ireland

 

Ricky again, l'm having to explain the obvious, i mentioned those breeds because of their firely highly strung aggressive nature, I am NOT saying they could last against a bullterrier in a pit, im merely saying it's the hot headed nature of terriers such as those which was crossed to bulldogs at the beginning to produce bull&terrier types,
I'm beginning to think no one on here understands the points im trying to make and assume i mean what they think rather than what I'm trying to get across.
You know, like a man who said a dog panting in a photo was bad winded but was unaware that the dog had just been exercised for around two hours of hanging on the rope and dragging a weight around 3 football pitches then finished off running up and down a steep bank and running jumping for a stick after which the photo was taken.??

 

Google Image Result for http://www.kbtcnc.org/images/herding-01.jpg

 

But they are not game...

 

The picture of them chasing the farm stock is what they ware used for...they are not game dogs, never where

 

Im saying he is bad winded because of his shape, he is short and too thick built