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painter type?

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by gypsyboy, Jun 27, 2012.

Page 5 of 18
  1. Southbanker

    Southbanker Big Dog

    Love to read all that old history....
     
    Southbanker, Jan 22, 2020
    #81
    bamaman likes this.
  2. Lrs

    Lrs Big Dog

    I can see what you mean but they all seem like less exaggerated show English bulldogs or pitbulls. The first dog looks like an old white boxer imo but again I can only go on third hand information so what do I know lol.
     
    Lrs, Jan 22, 2020
    #82
    LisaWM and Soze the killer like this.
  3. Soze the killer

    Soze the killer CH Dog

    @bamaman.....
    intresting link mate..

    Ya know my oppinion changes on the history of this breed day by day..i suppose all dog breeds (and especilly working dog breeds) history is obscure...
    but dogs are normally defeloped for a reasone..normally though needs rather then anything eles.
    my oppinion really dose change from day to day about this breed lol.
    im starting to be under the impression that the Americn Bull dog is not a show bulldog or nothing like that, in its original form..but is quite simpley a Pit Bred dog that became more of a all round farm or ranch dog that would of travelled with settlers and pioneers and establest its self in the southern districks as such a dog.Carrs explains the duteys requierd from such a dog quite clearly, and i have no reason to doubt him..
    could it not be that in the Southern districks the pit bred dogs were somewhat larger then the pit bred dogs on the East coast?we no the Southern States had Spanish settlers and Scottish settlers from around 1650-around 1850..and both there dogs were on the larger side.
    could it not be that pioneers travling further south form 1850 onwards just picked up big pit bred dogs to take to the new places they were exploring?..there- buy breeding them in there own way, to be more sutible to live and work on a ranch in a hostile enviroment.?
    then say in the 1950s they were picked up,or spoted if you like, and popularised slightly...
    Sementric says in his book Galdiator Dogs that it was actully him who populerised them in the late 1970s.not a good claim really..but he seemed to show people from the East side these dogs witch popuersided them even more,but led to people breeding them all wrong and crossing Mastiff and all kinds in...
    i have to say them Carr ones look pretty uniqie...and ive no doubt a dog did look like that may years ago.
    perhaps the Codora fighting dog whats in the Dogos makeup,looked like something similare,or was perhaps even the same dog as the Sothern Bull/Ranch dogs?
    also the pic of its teeth i found rather intresting..even though thats a undershot jaw.the teeth are still pretty tight toghether.
    has any one ever seen a pure bred APBT with this jaw?????

    Intresting....but a mystery all the same lol.
     
    Soze the killer, Jan 23, 2020
    #83
    PlugUgly and LisaWM like this.
  4. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    Soze I never saw a Carr dog to my knowledge.I just ran across this during some research but I believe this is what a American Bulldog should be.I don't doubt the existance of the Carr dogs ive never saw one though.As far as size I dont believe thier is any difference what so ever .A 45 lb match dog from the south and a 45 lb match dog from the east ? Not going to be much difference imo.Bigger the dogs harder it is to find competition.Any serious dog man is going to be in the competition.
     
    bamaman, Jan 23, 2020
    #84
    david63 and c_note like this.
  5. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog


    Soze,
    Apparently I’ve missed a lot, been cooking up a storm the past couple of days. Need my laptop to respond I find everything is scattered on the mobile site! Should have my answer in an hour or so!
     
    LisaWM, Jan 23, 2020
    #85
    Soze the killer likes this.
  6. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    I have often heard that Bert Sorrells dogs at the same weight as the other dogs would always look bigger to the eye .Even though they were same weight .
     
    bamaman, Jan 23, 2020
    #86
    Box Bulldog, david63, Soze the killer and 1 other person like this.
  7. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    You can find several different strains of American Bulldogs and most have a legitimate claim to the
    'original'. John D. Johnson built his version. The Scotts and Painters as well. I had read the Carr version some years back when I was looking to purchase an AB. There is also the Alapaho Blue Bulldog. Joshua Kennels in Florida.

    The link they all have is that 'way back when' in the rural south people did not keep dogs as pets, not like now anyway. If a dog get fed it had to perform a job, and most of the time it had several jobs. Those original bulldogs were protectors of the home, they hunted, they defended other farm animals from predators.

    Then over time these working abilities were specialized and with that sizes started to change, disposition started to change and the dogs themselves began to change. All thru selection.

    There is a guy in New Jersey who hunts with his version of Old English Whites and those are some really impressive dogs. I saw them at a hog dog rodeo set up in SC once. He brought down several and every one looked world class on the hogs.

    When I was looking way back when I bought the 'The Working Bulldog' book by Dave Putnam (spelling?) and the book from Joshua Kennels, I forget his name now. Both books offered up some good history on the dogs.

    S
     
    slim12, Jan 23, 2020
    #87
    Casperworldpeace, david63, Soze the killer and 1 other person like this.
  8. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog

    LisaWM, Jan 23, 2020
    #88
    Soze the killer likes this.
  9. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog

    Im wondering could it have been the leg throwing people off in regards to the Sorrell dogs? They all seemed very leggy
     
    LisaWM, Jan 23, 2020
    #89
  10. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    They were taller for sure with more mass.His record speaks for itself .He knew what a Bulldog should look like .One other thing is he never ever inbred .I'm sure his dogs had plenty of vigor to go with the looks.
     
    bamaman, Jan 23, 2020
    #90
    LisaWM and Soze the killer like this.
  11. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Scroll back in the Johnson portion of the pedigree and there is Sandman the Great. Some say he was the perfect dog. He had the size and strength to catch. He had muzzle length to breathe. He was not a biter but did not care for people who did not live at 'his house'. His height, weight and length allowed him to do anything, and none of that hindered him from doing any certain type of work.

    As Mr. Johnson continued his line from there you can see some of the Old English/Bully type dogs take hole. They lost muzzle length and the mass increased. They started to become a little more defensive driven and 'protectors of the home' became their calling card. "One owner" dogs as they were called.

    Others took the Sandman offspring and pushed them toward the hogs. If you have ever done anything with a dog in the south, you understand heat and humidity. The dogs without the muzzle length simply could not breathe, especially after a long run/sprint. Carrying the mass was a load as well, and without some height and length leveraging a pig was more difficult.

    So they evolved thru selection. Just like every other breed.

    One of my favorite lines is the Screaming Eagle dogs, I think from Alaska. (of all places). These are serious working bulldogs. As well as Mountain Gator Kennels. You can see some of the Johnson type in these dogs but they are performance drive, mostly man work, but the body structures are exceptional.

    I have a buddy who was stationed in Georgia in the 80's and he had several dogs from JDJ. He said his were insane and hard to control and hard to handle. The original 'hard headed' bulldog. Don't take this and run, but he said he did not feel comfortable with his Johnson dogs around children. He says he knew a number of others had family oriented dogs that would defend those kids to the end, while allowing the kids to tug on their ears, jerk with them while they were sleeping, just the every day torture a kid can do to a family dog. His were not that way. No statement for the whole family, just the two he had.

    He was into the pit dogs as well, and we have both said (with today's climate) we would have been better off to go the AB route instead of the pit route many years ago.

    Life would be easier!

    S







     
    slim12, Jan 23, 2020
    #91
    Casperworldpeace, david63, Soze the killer and 2 others like this.
  12. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog


    The foundation of the Johnson line..........

    http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1623728-sandman-the-great

    We all know that phenotypically you can trace that there was an outcross breeding when looking at todays Johnson dogs, Sandman despite being of rustic or of scattered lineage still looks very "Bulldog". If you take dogs like Messier's Jack the Ripper, Colby's Pincher & Tudor's Pretty boy they also look very "Bulldog". The point of my curiousness is the origin of type with the AB not the origin of breed. What are the dogs themselves telling us through pictures, paintings & engravings? I do think that they were one in the same however like mentioned above they changed to suit specific jobs or tastes. The dogs are are telling us alot, whats the quote "if you like these dogs you like the truth & if you watch them they will show you the truth!"

    There's also alot of Bullshit & fairytales out there in regards to this breed, which is also pretty detrimental. Re: Carr dogs, the Carr dogs I would have to say are a rustic breed of their own with some Hines, old Scott & Painter influence. As well as some Alapaha via Lana Lane (Bill Hine's also got & used Lana's dogs in his program), Carr WEB's have Presa & Great Pyrenees in them. Again this comes out in Pheno & Temperment. I am not saying that they are not good workers, I am saying that they are still very much so in a cross bred state. Hit & miss, if proper culling were to happen the breed could be stabalized. I find that alot of AB breeder's just arent as honest as the old school dogmen, including the "old timers" in the breed.

    Phenotype
    http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1629370-watchdog-battlin-bertha
    a perfect example of Painter Phenotype with NO painter lineage?

    http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1629371-watchdog-socrates
    Bertha's son, again Painter Pheno but he has Painter lineage Via Sargent Rock & Rock's Bitch

    http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1430051-leclercs-gypsy
    Again you can see Sargent Rock coming through, you can also see this with LeClerc's Lethal Lizzy, LeClerc's Fujimo Bandit, LeClerc's Ghengis Kahn & so on. This is what i mean in regards to the dog's showing the truth. You can see the influence of breed or lineage without paperwork.

    This is also true with Bushveldt, Komosinski's dogs, Frisco Sport, Champion Dan & so on.
     
    LisaWM, Jan 23, 2020
    #92
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  13. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog

    Slim,
    Mark's Screaming Eagle dogs go back to the Painter Line Via LeClerc's Gypsy. Oooohhhhhh MGK lol would have to double check but i believe they also go back to Painter via Osgoode (must add not having anything to do with Jack's breeding program) I'll leave it there lol. I know exactly what you mean in regards to the Johnson dogs Temp & disposition! Ive seen it myself, personally i would never own one, ever. Not just because of their type but also health issues, the shit disposition in regards to being a family dog, they ARE very Mastiffy in Temp & disposition which in my opinion is NOT that of a true bulldog!
     
    LisaWM, Jan 23, 2020
    #93
  14. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog

    Soze,
    Sounds likea reverse scissor bite on the car dogs? Ive seen them just never actually looked in their mouth at the bite itself. Mine are Scissor bite, however im assuming that would be more of a pit influence versus EB influence
     
    LisaWM, Jan 23, 2020
    #94
    Soze the killer likes this.
  15. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog

    A03AC2C8-B3E1-4C5C-B567-A2AFE9D662B7.jpeg
     
    LisaWM, Jan 23, 2020
    #95
    Soze the killer likes this.
  16. Soze the killer

    Soze the killer CH Dog

    hahaha...@Slim were have you been in this thread man?...that little speach you just said back there is what this thread needed lol.....
    thats what every ones been looking for lol.
    hahaha i new you could not resist lol..fucking dog mad aint ya mate.
    hey Slim you should right a book on the AmBull LOL...come to think of it so should Lisa and Bam LOL.

    Some more please guys and gals.
    ide rather read then right.

    Great talk..
    you read back through it all and it could make a great new Am Bull book lol.
     
    Soze the killer, Jan 23, 2020
    #96
    LisaWM likes this.
  17. Soze the killer

    Soze the killer CH Dog

    Reverse scissore bite yes Lisa..thats the correct term.
    the AmBulls ive seen(not many and certanly not from a working prospective)have either had a horrible exagerated undershot jaw..quite unlike the carr dogs but more akin to a pug show bulldog.or they have been well mouthed with a scissor bite(normal)...
    it seems for a dog to grab or catch.both these type of bites, need to be tight.
    if that makes sense?
    like not loose like a pug show bulldog.not exagerated in any way if you like.
     
    Soze the killer, Jan 23, 2020
    #97
    Lrs likes this.
  18. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog

    yes lol makes perfect sense, dont get me started on the pug though lol. Originally they also did NOT have that shitty pushed in face! They were actually a nice looking miniature bulldog, cropped ears & all!
     
    LisaWM, Jan 23, 2020
    #98
  19. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog

    8A9AE48F-28CA-47F1-8BA6-29D9E7A4A4A4.jpeg B68919F9-CB64-4280-8D81-E799EECE2B88.jpeg E1465A98-99AC-4802-BA58-8A39480F3385.jpeg
     
    LisaWM, Jan 23, 2020
    #99
  20. c_note

    c_note CH Dog

    Those Joshua dogs looked like some of the better performing stock imo. Painter used apbt heavy. The Scott is probably the best all around AB I’ve seen. JDJ dogs looks like huge EBs to me. Those Leavitt and Alapaha dogs had my interest but prices drove me away...


    I think ppl are playing catch up again. They bred for looks for a while, now they tryin to add function back when it should have never left! Those old bulldogs were an endangered breed due to show breeding imo. They were ugly but useful. The ugly got exaggerated and the useful went on vacation...


    If I were to get an AB it would be from a place that uses the dogs for more than one thing.
     
    c_note, Jan 23, 2020
    #100
    david63 and LisaWM like this.
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