Did successful dogmen ever breed curs?

Tons of the famous dogs were bred down out of curs. Earlier in the post there was screen shot of some of the greats that had curs in their family.

Most of them were not bred from curs at the time of their breedings. Some were bred to a 'good' dog at the time and then the dog later went on to quit.

There was a Boyles bred male near here once. He was as intense and fight crazy as any dog I have ever seen. In his rolls he stopped several good dogs. He then won once. After the win I wanted to the Boyles/Mims cross. We tried for hours on two different nights and could not get them to tie. He was a complete and utter retard coupled with the fact the female was stupid crazy as well. I did not get the breeding done.

His next time out he quit. Quit rank. The kicker is he had two sets of puppies prior to quitting. In the first litter two of three males won shows. I did not anyone with dogs from the second litter.

Not that he will be remembered as a famous dog not will his off spring, but people bred to a hard tested, game dog with a win.
Down the road he quit.

It happens.

S

 

No doubts.

I mentioned a current dog who recently packed it in. After 8W's he was sent to the well one too many times. I'd breed to this dog. One I know the camps involved with him. I have had dogs out of the same family that I have picked up W's. I have given a lot more weigh to wins than most, so when one puts up 8 legitimate get togethers I think that is huge. Maybe I like the idea of breeding to the package rather than just to the dog.

I get the importance of gameness and that it should be understood in every breeding. But I grew up with wins being the final grade. From a kid to the early twenties I thought that is how every one thought. I did not hear about saving the breed, or preserving gameness until the internet started. I never heard that. In my neck of the woods it was all about the W's.

DTA's CH Charlie (4XW) is maybe the best male I have ever seen to actually win a match. He had a brother name Booby who with teeth would have taken Charlie's lunch money. I know for a fact Bobby was the gamer dog. Bobby was tested hard and Charlie marched thru anything in front of him. What differentiated the two was Charlie had teeth and Bobby did not. Charlie won matches. Bobby dig not.

So if a dog won one and quit I'b be not so thrilled. If he wins 8 and then hangs it up the 8 wins far outweigh the quit.

I understand a lot of people do not see it that way and the differences in thinking is what makes the dogs go around.

I have never have had the room to keep curs and cold dogs. And I have never bred them either. Not because I do not know enough about breeding them but because you can't come back out with winning in mind with curs/cold dogs.

S

 

On the Gameness by Garner post. I basically agree and have seen the levels described. For me, I think it is simpler jut to define game as the willingness to continue. If he goes he is game, if he does not go, he is a cur (more on the difference of quitting and being stopped). Defining levels is a slippery slope to making excuses because the level definitions are purely subjective. Everyone has their own definition and at the end of the day no one person's definition is any more accurate than the next.

I like using real life examples. Mountain Man' Bandit. I did not see him. Two men now in their 70's both saw him stand the line. One said he was in shock and had been stopped. The other said he simply quit. Back in the day these two men would damn near fight over their opinion on what they saw.

I have seen them quit on all fours, stand there and just look around. I have seen them walk away on top after a devastating performance. I have seen them start across and quit half way. And I have seen them standing on all fours with a cold, deep, death stare looking across but not go.

Looking around while standing on all fours is a no brainer. Locked in a deep stare across the pit 'appearing to focus' on the other but frozen in his tracks makes me think differently.

Hanky was a Snooty/Bolio dog who picked up two W's very impressively. He was one of the best 47lb'ers I have ever seen. He had some traits that always made me a little worried until he was released and at that point he eased all concerns. He would drag you down the road until he heard a car and he would cower down and try to drag you off the road. Any loud noise spooked him. He did not like crowds and he did not like a lot of commotion around him. He did not look like he was full of himself until he was released. He devastated one in his third. Hanky was the hardest, fastest scratcher I have ever seen. He scratched like he was an oncoming train. On his last scratch they hit head to head. It was like a car wreck. Both dogs rolled over apart from one another similar to Rocky-Appollo Creed in Rocky II. It was a larger crowd. A handle was made and Hanky was to scratch. The other dog was being held up and it was over except Hanky never moved out of his tracks.

Many opinions. One guy felt like he was basically knocked out on the collision. Another said he was a walk away cur. Based on the time I spent with him as a young dog I think he freaked when the crowd went ape shit at the collision, as it was a brutal crash. End of the day, we lost.

I have seen the levels and I have at times tried to fit them in where I could. It gets cloudy so I dumbed it down for me. They either go or they don't. And again I am no breeder so I am not looking to define gameness in a way to justify or glorify a breeding. Regardless of why he does not go, he is not coming back out to chase another W.

If he quit, he quit. If he was in true shock, odds are enough damage is done to the body he will not recover to go again. That dog that stood in shock (being stopped is way different than quitting) is a breedable dog in my opinon, just no longer a dog to take up and down the road.

S

 

When a dog curs for the most part there is not another chance given. So one of the variables that is pretty much an unknown is that the rankest cur today may be able and WILLING to whoop the world tomorrow. What is looked at as an excuse is that the dog simply could have been exposed for having a bad day.

Being labeled a cur is such an absolute for some that there is no looking past it for the reasons. That came about because these dogs were never bred to preserve any thing or perpetuate anything for future generations. That process in reality, is a by-product of breeding good dogs. But in the real world, it is a tag line to sell puppies.

These dogs were bred to win, first and foremost. Tons of truly game dogs have been culled because they simply did not have all the tools to win. Plenty of curs have been bred because they had all the tools to win. When a guy leaves home he has a dog and a pocket full of money. I have never met any one, or had the personal experience of leaving home with gameness as my lead card. In some cases it can be the trump card but more often or not the winning dog does not prove he is game. He proves he is the better dog. And if he wins he is presumed game.

Molly Bee won 8 matches. The tag line is no dog ever scratched back to her which in turn means she never had to scratch back either. No one knows whether Molly Bee was game or not, but more importantly, no one ever really cared.

So yes, if today's champ can be tomorrow's cur then there is great possibility the opposite can be true as well.

The late-great Ozzie Stevens once said (in so many words). "I can never tell you what that dog will do tomorrow or in the future, but I can tell you what he did the last time, and based on what he did the last time is why I will bet on him the next time"

S