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WHY DO WE WORSHIP THE BULL AND SACRIFICE THE TERRIER

Discussion in 'Staffordshire Bull Terriers' started by F.W.K., Mar 1, 2018.

  1. Stedz do u think its possible the poor folk of Ireland could of got good money sending a pit dog to the states?.possibly so much money that they could start a life over their?....if we look through history we see that around that time(patato famine), that the matches in America were for considerable sum's. (It says in Armitiges book over ten thousand passed through people hands in the pilot v crib fight 1881 even though it was only for a thousand a side,which was still a hell of a lot back then).with that in mind.woudent it seem reasonable that the folk from Ireland would have jumped on a boat with any bull type dog(despite were it came from),it says in Colby's book that J.P.would set work up for imergrants if they brought a good dog along with them....perhaps the Irish got dogs from the midlands and other parts of the U.K.some 40years before and kept them pure in Ireland,maybe that's why some of the early ones came in small sizes?(heavy inbreeding,not a lot of food for man or dog,harsh time's!!)....... Also it should be pointed out,that every part of Europe emergrated to the States.and in some parts of Europe at that time they still widely practiced bull and bear baiting..do u think they wouldn't of brought these dog with them?Because they did!...weather these dogs enters the gean pool of the A.P.B.T.or not is open to debate..most history books and people are adamant that the dogs are pure Irish or British...... Most of the dogs were of course....... The history of these dog fascinate me.......
     
  2. By the way,just for history u can get the potato famine book.on the cover of it there a painting (I think its dated 1840s)and on that painting there a dog.no bull type....you can clearly tell its a Wheaton terrier...or Wheaton type...also another nice painting (from 1830s)is lord Brownlows Bull terriers in Ireland.depicted by J.Ferneley......
     
  3. stedz

    stedz Top Dog

    Soze, how could the "poor folk of Ireland" even afford to feed a dog and keep it alive, let alone have enough money to ship them abroad, they were starving to death in their millions and it was all they could do to keep themselves alive. I know the Irishmen played a big part in pit dog history especially around the Boston and Chicago areas, but when I read stuff about Irish immigrants coming off the coffin boats with a prized champion pit dog under their arm i find it all a bit far fetched. A lot of them couldn't even survive the journey. As far as I'm concerned the vast majority of the dogs would have been English. The dogs were originally bred for bull baiting and other blood sports. You can see loads of old prints and paintings etc depicting Bull baiting and the rat pits etc in "Merry old England". I don't remember seeing any from Ireland. A man called Mike homan wrote a couple of really good historical books, try to get hold of them if you can. Read what I wrote about the OFRN dogs mate, they were in the black country, well before they were thought of as being Irish dogs. One thing I got wrong was Harry's age though, I worked out he was 74 back in 93 so he would be 99 today. You would have liked him soze he was like a walking encyclopedia regarding the dogs. I met him one day in Stafford show in cannock - so anyway the next thing he goes in this carrier bag he's got with him and pulls out all these different brass antique buldog collars. All of a sudden there must have been about 50 people around us and harry was telling them all about the history of them etc. I don't know if you ever heard of him but there was another old black countryman called Freddie Phillips who was a bit of an authority on the dogs but when he was in Harry's company he was a little bit in awe of the man. Fred was a lovely man but Harry probably forgot more than Freddie knew.
     
  4. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog


    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=366243
    http://www.raydelaney.net/brocstock/The_Dublin_Red_Strain.html

    Cant bend history now.
     
    david63 and Soze the killer like this.
  5. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

     
  6. I no what your saying stedz.and you r right about CH dogs jumping of boats.(bit far fetched.the dog proberly got eaten on the boat lol)....the ones what did make it would of been highly valued though. Most defiantly!....I agree about the red noses to,you no originating in Dudly....me thinks that the Irish would of had dogs from england at some point.....now perhaps,just perhaps.....because of the famine in Ireland, well maybe it was easyer to conduct pit sports?(no ones gunna give a feck bout laws in that situation)no what your saying though.oh I no what your saying.can you imagine how they would feed dogs?or any animal?...its the same about the pottery's.the people who worked or lived there were extremely poor,so I don't no how they could keep pit dogs.whippets yes.pit dogs?.could you imagine giving these dogs hardly no food,or a poor diet?they go under!How the hell they survived is anyone's guess.the story's you tell about Harry and Freddy are awesome, real nice to hear,real great history... As for the Homan books I have never read them so I can't relate.you can still get them(they are on my"to get" book list)but they are very expensive.I seen a copy go on amazon for £450,I think it was the history of fighting dogs....£450 man!I would pay it(because I'm stupid lol)but not at the min.......slightly of but do u think the Irish around that time would of seeked work in different parts of England first and then went to America?with wat ever money and dogs they could find?I don't believe the Midlands had a monopoly on pit dogs,I believe they were all over Great Britain.that said pilot and crib(1881)we're brad in the midlands.I now some Irish settled in port towns before they sails to the States,some landed in Liverpool, and London,and probely many other places......nice speaking to u stedz,thanks for the history and thanks for being patient with me.......keep this history coming!!!:D.........
     
  7. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    The Irish went on to build America..along side Natives..Blacks...Chinese. .and the rest of the immigrants that were fleeing here.
    The English portion of the history is also credited in our history of the APBT, here in the States. Mr. Feeley was one that crossed Irish and English Stock here.
    OFRN mainly gained Fame around the 30s and 40s..aftar Centepede.
    The Lightner dogs before that were the Red Dogs. They were here supposedly before Our Civil war. Where they came from is a mystery.
    The red nosed dogs today al go back through Citation..Vick.and Centepede.

    And all that shite about the people eating dogs before they got here ...wow

    The Relatives of the Colby's ..that were captains of the ships...






    Seems some would just assume to bend history to suite their stories.
     
    YellowJohnJocko likes this.
  8. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    How they survived...they were hunting dogs also.. Get real.
    My dogs could catch any type of critter today....why could they not back then?
     
  9. The thing about people eating dogs was a joke lol.
     
  10. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog


    Well ...here in the great depression...i would not put it past anyone to have ate dogs...horses...or anything they could get ahold of....
    And the cannibalism. ..folks stranded at sea on boats...have done just about anything...im pretty sure..
     
    Soze the killer likes this.
  11. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    Im pretty sure All Brown...has a descendant named Wayne. He writes some pretty historic books. Quite pricey. I have written to him..and received word back. Im goimg to ask him if any of this history is in his writing. He is very detailed in his writings..and very educated on the breeds history here.
    It is the history before here that yall need to get in order..lol
     
    Soze the killer likes this.
  12. What's to hunt on a boat?what's to hunt in city's were they sails from?......How they survived? Well it would of been hard.even people didn't eat!people and children we're dying left right and center!...so how they fed dogs must of been hard also.get real?really?when were they hunting dogs?never!baiting or pit dogs yes.hunting dogs??maybe when they got to the States they hunted(lots of wild boar over there!)but not many in the ports and the docks were they sails from lol......
     
  13. Thats interesting!! I wounder if its him?....
     
  14. I haven't bent history. If I have sorry.but I really don't think I have lol.....
     
  15. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    Look ..i have read my history..and understand it. It makes sence to me.. I dont question it..it seems vould they not have hunted rats on boats..lol..for shit sake...im talking them as being a tool on ground..not food on a boat.
    I font k ow..i was not there.
    I believe some of the stuff i read.
    Dont get all bent out of shape because you dont agree with irish.or american history.. I cunt help u there..
    They hunted then..and now..
    Becsuse dogs have always hunted..it is their purpose.
     
  16. stedz

    stedz Top Dog

    Mccoy, I'm not here to bend history mate, I read all the history books same as you, its just my opinion. I'd take somebody like Mr Harry rogers far more seriously than Stratton, Mullins or brown etc, and I've got Irish ancestry myself. Harry's grandfather had these dogs - that's nearly 200 years of history in itself. If you listened to the so called experts I mentioned above, if Louis Colby hadn't written his book they would still have you believing his father was an Irishman, when in fact the man was a Welshman. If they cannot be believed when it comes to fairly modern facts of history like that, why should I believe them about the rest. Like I said in a previous post, there have been ridiculous claims made about Obama and muhammed Ali being Irish. If some fool starts writing that shit down now I guarantee in 200 years time some fools are going to believe it. I'm not being funny but I got more Irish DNA in one of my wet farts!
     
    david63 and Soze the killer like this.
  17. I have read my history to.I never once said I don't agree with Irish or American history!were did I say that?!.I did say I think some things are far fetched,as with all story's. And yes they would of killed rats on boats(for food and to stop desesess speed)...
     
  18. Diseases spread...that's meant to read.
     
  19. Colby crossed English and Irish together also...so did Henry.so did many others...maybe they new they we're all related some way,and that's why they crossed them.thus maximising there breeding stock to its full potential.....
     
  20. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    Al Brown and Pete Sparks did not get SBTs to mix in with APBT , they had them registered with the AKC , they ware involved in the showing
    all SBTs in Ireland came from show SBTs from UK ,, no one said they didn't , no one said they ware Irish SBTs,? all I said the SBTs Sparks and Al Brown ware bred in Ireland and sent from Ireland , OFRN dogs ware developed in USA ,from dogs that came from Ireland , the red nose was something that happened from inbreeding , as far as I know , they did not reach USA with the red noses , as with every thing only the poor suffered from the famine , but there is records , of Pit bulls coming from Ireland , I can't post plenty of old adverts of Irish Imported dogs ..
     
    mccoypitbulls likes this.

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