why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

could be, ive been wrong before, but it doesnt discard the idea that the apbts have something infused into them to increase size then bred back to pitdogs, and then maintain as such by breeding nothing else but apbt to apbt for consistency

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

The american pit bull terrier have been crossed out to many breeds and ore dogs to ad genes for the beter.
a very old fraze from back then was"" There is nothing another dog can do ore a pit bull can do it better"". people tought that the apbt was a small breed nothing could be feurther from the truth, big pups ore dogs where culled. simpley because 1 they where to ecspensif to feed 2 biger dogs of quality where harder to find. some of the colby dogs just befor the 1900, weight in at 70lbs chain weight...
so the bigger size of many a dog today have nothing to do with it. it was geografic ditirmend whether they wanted big ore smaller dogs. in a time where people could barely feed themselfs ore there larger famelys... the same prinseble is dont bupto the presend day breeding and keeping them smaller for obvius rezens.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

I think --my opinion is ... if there was a breed of dog that was deep game= British Bulldog why would it be cross ,if the most important thing in a match was gameness .... why would you cross that (British bull dog) with a terrier who is no way as game compared to a Bulldog?....all these cross breeds would have lost matches on gameness to a bulldog , all these loosers who have being culled just like a cure modern dog (APBT)

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

interestingly in, or abouts, 1828 a request was made to the editor of 'the sporting magazine' by a man penning himself as 'eboracen' asking if any readers knew the where-abouts of 'genuine terriers' ( black and tans ) and 'true english bulldogs' as he wishes to possess the real 'out-and-outers' of these breeds....now would he be thinking or planning to mix them i wonder.
also, we read and understand from contemporary writings and literature of the time that the english bulldog was a fiercesome adversary and given the accolade of being deep game...but it may have been very boring having two deep game but very limited dogs as regards to what we now term 'ability' slogging it out in the pits of the time.
there are some bloodlines whose general gameness cannot be called into disrepute but are extremely tiring to watch, they lack the flurry and excitement that others tend to generate.....what i have in mind are the shows that go for hours with little or no action compared to the shorter, no frills, action packed high ability 20/ 30/ 40 minute shows......i am sure that crosses and experimentation was practised either by design or by accident, not all being failures or with undesirable outcomes.
but i enjoy all the theories and thoughts pulling the threads together....i think we all have salient points....regards.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Its also known and on record that the purebred english bulldog was lacking everyting els they where clumsy and indeed boring to watch. and the record of the parts put on here out of stonehenge on the dogs discribed that the bull and terrier croses where superior to both breeds they where bred from. and would beat both breeds in pure form ez...

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Not sure why people seems to think that old working terriers were curs or something subpar compared to bulldogs. Working terriers are something impressive to see even today, and probably back in the day they were even rougher and more tenacious, no quit machines.

I believe APBT has terrier blood in them, the right amount to enhance bulldog courage and strenght.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

granted way back when times were different and it all began sure there are crosses that were done but that is not the norm now if its not broke why fix it.bull dogs that i have seen come in at 65lbs to 35lbs wet , but have been breed true and still come out with a wide range of look and build to them like black and tan markings and dogs that look like staffs of old its all in what you are working with i also have patts but i would not breed one to one of my bulldogs why?if they dont work i don't need then !!I have no time or the money to waste on feed on dogs that I am hopeing will work or not any ways i think i am getting of track here .I think my dogs look the same to the dogs that first came over just my 2 cents for what its worth.YOU guys have a good one

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Thats what Im thinking also. But I dont think its hard see that theres little to no difference between the dogs of old compared to the bulldogs of today. Structure, head, size it all looks pretty damn similar to me.. I look at the APBT as the true bulldog of old

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

if you could take a modern fast lane a.p.b.t back to 1700/ 1800's and meet up with the best bulldogs on offer......i wonder if modern genes/ ability/ conditioning would take the day, i think they would!

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

It's almost impossible to call the APBT a pure Bull-Dog-breed. There might be strains within the APBT that have more Bull-Dog in them as other strains. And some might even carry more Terrier-blood in them, but most strains probably were coming down from (different) crosses. Mainly Bull-Dog x Terrier.
If it's starting with a cross, which way to go after a cross is made ? From a breeder's view. However, you can get 3 families from a single cross.
1. cross dogs x sire's family (75%/25%)
2. cross dogs x dam's family (75%/25%)
3. cross x cross (50%/50%)
When would you call dogs down from this cross 'pure' again ?
Pure top-side ? Pure bottom-side ? Pure cross-dogs ?
I believe different strains of today carry different percentages of different breeds, mainly Bull-Dogs, Bulldogs, and Terrier (Bulldogs = Bull-Dog x Terrier).
I believe all kind of crosses have been made, but only those who worked out well for the fanciers got the chance to survive until today. Would be great to know who did what and why ?! I just can't imagine that ALL dogmen (and people in general) at that time, were only interested in the pure Bull-Dog. Sure, there were (groups of) dogmen who tried to keep 'the blood' pure and working.
What, if you have to choose between 'pure' and 'working' ? What would you do ?
What's 'pure' ?
How pure are the sled dogs of today ? Who is still using 'pure' Huskies or 'pure' Malamutes ? Not the winning ones, I guess. What about the Malinois ? Pure ? lol
Guess what was bred into the Malinois to make him what he is today ? Look at the Malinois from 25-30 yrs ago. Different dogs !
However, here are some parts out of a book that I like alot.
THE PITBULL - FACT AND FABLE by K.S. Matz

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

THE PITBULL - FACT AND FABLE by K.S. Matz
...
Classification Of Dogs At The End Of The 18th Century

It's clear that by the end of the 18th century the descendants of the Alaunt had developed special qualities suited to their occupations, called forth from generation to generation by selection. Bewick in his 'History of Quadrapeds' (1790) listed the Mastiff, Bull-Dog, and the Ban-Dog as separate breeds.
...
Bewick described the Bull-Dog as low in structure and with an underjaw projecting beyond the upper, which gave it a fierce and unpleasing aspect. The Bull-Dog at this time was 14 to 18 inches high, weighing 40 to 50 pounds.
In the last days of Bull-baiting, according to old-timers, a 40 pound dog was able to pin a Bull; and, some were even able to throw it on its side.
...

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

THE PITBULL - FACT AND FABLE by K.S. Matz

The Great Variety Of Bull-Dogs

The 18th Century Bull-Dog varied greatly in appearance and specimens with marked differences existed from one geographical area to another. ... Even in the city of London types varied considerably.
...
Some Bull-Dogs had a trace of Greyhound. It's known that Lord Orford in the 1770s had bred every conceivable dog with the Greyhound to produce an improved coursing Hound. He eventually chose the Bull-Dog as the most likely canditate. He bred seven generations before producing a Hound that was considered the finest coursing Hound of the day. ...
Many authorities believe that, at one time, the Pug was crossed with the Bulldog. ...
Stonehenge, in his 1859 work, mentioned that some Bulldogs of superior strain were very wooly coated with curled tails. Possibly they may have been the result of crosses with Collies.
...

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

THE PITBULL - FACT AND FABLE by K.S. Matz

The Decline Of The Fighting Bull-Dog In The Nineteenth Century

At the close of the 18th Century and the early years of the 19th Century, it was said that the Bull-Dog was only bred by "the toughest classes".
...

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

THE PITBULL - FACT AND FABLE by K.S. Matz

The Bull-Dog Barely Survives

Hugh Dalziel, an authority on English dogs, wrote that the fighting Bull-Dog had become exceedingly rare and was looked upon as a "relic of a barbarous and bygone age". Writers as early as 1792 reported the breed on the decline. In 1803 one writer reported that a great number of dogs had been taken abroad, obtaining 'great prices'.
Unfortunately, he doesn't say where they were sold. But, a curios footnote to this period is found in the memoirs of a well-known dog breeder, Baron von Moensch, who imported Bull-Dogs and White English Terriers to Germany to develop what he called the 'Fighting Terrier'. In 1812, a friend of the baron's, a man named Count Francis, took some of the baron's fighting dogs to France and Spain where he crossed them with Pointers and French Bull-Dogs. The crosses, however, did not improve the fighting Terrier and fell into disrepute around 1833.
One Bull-Dog fancier, H.Boynton, Esq., claimed to own the last real Bull-Dogs in existence. His dogs appear in the engraving entitled "Wasp, Child and Billy" (May 15, 1809).
...

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

THE PITBULL - FACT AND FABLE by K.S. Matz

The Last Of The Old Style Bull-Dog Breeders

A few dog dealers, prize fighters, and later, the Bulldog fanciers who would later form the Bulldog Club, continued to breed Bull-Dogs. Idestone in "The Dog" 1824, gives a clue to where the Bulldog survived. ...
Had it not been for dog-fighting, the old-style Bull-Dog would have become extinct.
...
From 1835 to 1859, the breed was in exile in the public mind; his use and popularity in society hit rock bottom. After the legal dog breeders ceased breeding fighting Bull-Dogs, the working class continued to breed the dog and use it for its original purpose. Had it not been for these breeders, the Bull-Dog would have certainly been lost. A few thoroughbred specimens of the breed were preserved only in a few large towns of England, such as Sheffield, Birmingham, and in the pups of the East end of London.
...

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

THE PITBULL - FACT AND FABLE by K.S. Matz

The Bull-Dog Becomes The Bulldog

In 1859, England held its first dog show and soon the brand new pastime of dog showing would change the Bull-Dog's conformation. Many of the fanciers who fought dogs began showing them, but still tested their dogs and attempted to retain their original gameness. ...
Although dog dhows began in 1859, the Bull-Dog wasn't given a class until 1860. Previously, shows were exclusively for sporting dogs (dogs involved in the shooting sports). The Bull-Dog classes, strangely enough, were divided by weight: dogs under 20 pounds and dogs over that weight. This tradition of competing was a remnant of the sport of dog-fighting.
...

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

THE PITBULL - FACT AND FABLE by K.S. Matz

The Bull-Dog Meets The Terrier

At some point near the end of the 18th Century, Bull-Dog breeders became dissatisfied with the Bull-Dog's pit fighting ability. He was increasingly heavy and clumsy and much too slow for fighting which required agility and quickness. Fanciers desired a dog with a longer muzzle and more punishing head than the pure-bred Bull-Dog possessed. The change may have been the result of breeding experiments of the early part of the century.
At any rate, by the middle of the 19th Century, the pure-bred Bull-Dog was no longer used for fighting. London dog sellers in the 1840s classed Bulldogs not as sporting dogs, but as fancy dogs. They claimed they were not good fighters: their mouths being too small.
...
For all these reasons, the gladiator of the 19th Century was the Bull And Terrier.
...

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

THE PITBULL - FACT AND FABLE by K.S. Matz

The Original Bull And Terrier Cross

...

???

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

good read....!

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

May i ask why people keep talking about the FABLE Blue Paul. That a dog was named such is fact, that it was a breed in itself is not fact.