staffies and pitbull's history

Well put!!!!

 

pretty keen to hear about them myself

 

If you believe that you'll believe anything! Got to be the joke of the night haha

 

What dogs or kegs are you're rolling? Haha

 

What is rare gameness or game Staffs? If Staffs were so good, then why did all the breeders of game Staffs go to APBTs? Larger breeding program wasnt the reason I'm sure. The only reason a Staff would be an option over an APBT in "badger trials" would probably be due to the smaller size. If the Japanese were willing to spend 6 figures on a proven Gr Ch, I think they would know something about combat dogs, pretty simple lol. Nothing to do with magazines or whatever excuse you try to come up with to justify why they didnt select a Staff. All about winning and if it were bandogs winning at the same size, then they would have been buying bandogs. And yes, the reason Staffs are going extinct is because they couldnt compete on the same level with a modern APBT in combat sports.

Staffs are nostalgic, and to consistently win they would need to stay in the nostalgic class, and not the fast lane!

 

I just have to ad, that when some of these great APBTs were being campaigned, they were "open to the world", so where were these great Staffs that can beat a modern APBT at?

 

Keep laughing mate but when ur done explain to me what strict culling and selective breeding was then? Anyone who was serious about breeding and preserving these dogs didn't breed from dogs that quit and anyone who did was spoiling their own reputation. Tell me where the joke in that is?

 

If you read my post again, perhaps you will see what I am actually saying. You would also see that I have already answered the questions you ask in this post. Right now you seem to debate based on what you think I am saying. You still seem to be on the “my lawn is greener than yours” track, I am not into that.

I try to give a very balanced perspective on the situation with the Stafford’s; perhaps it is too much to expect that people would grasp what I try to put across.

Nowhere in my posts have I put forward the idea that the Staff would overall be a better dog than the APBT. On the contrary, I have tried to give a fair description of what the Staffs are, and why they are where they are! In my days I have owned APBT´s of the highest calibre, I have also been around some of the best Staff´s there has been in the last decades. I am one of the few people anywhere that actually would be able to make a fair comparison between the two. There are enough people on this board that knows that the last sentences is not BS on my behalf.

I don´t have any intentions of debating “my dad is stronger than yours”, all I tried was to educate people like yourself. You previously stated that you did not have any knowledge about the Staffs, but you were willing to learn about Staffs out of curiosity. I don´t get the impression that you’re interested in knowledge. And I am not interested in a pissing contest, so I am out...

 

Lol damo there's a picture of my dog on the thread already, 19" at the leg and 46lb weight and only turned a year old. So let's see urs now that iv answered ur question. U rarely answer any direct question ur asked.

 

Knowledge is knowledge, but history if fact (most of the time). I simply rebutted your posts with factual evidence from the past. Its not a pissing contest in anyway. My point is if there were Staffs out there better than the past great APBTs where were they, and why hasnt it been proven? It is not the APBTs fault if no great Staff came to challenge it. The truth was in the box, not on boards and through speculation.
If I have offended you or anyone, it was not intentional, so if anything is to blame, blame facts.

 

Ok.

If you would have sat Joe Mallen and JP Colby down at the same table trying to convince them they had two different breeds, they would have called you nuts. There where dogs imported from Ireland and successfully competing in the US up until the 1950´s or 1960s. The notion that these are two different breeds are created by us fairly recently.

When you ask where the “Staffords” were at the time, and why they were not challenging the APBT. At the same timeframe as Eli and Dibo where campaigned, hardly any Staffs at all saw the box! If you read my older post you would see that they were working underground at that time. At the same time Jeep where in his prime, Ch Psycho laid the foundation to one of the most successful fighting strains of the Stafford’s. Only difference is that Jeep had generations of fighting dogs behind him, Psycho pretty much where the first. Psychos ancestors where more or less only badger dogs! I am sure I will be corrected on that by the Irishmen if I am wrong.

The Stafford was tested game at the Teastas Mor, and it was probably not just the size that would make them superior at that task compared to the APBT. Just as the APBT was specified for the box, the Staff was specified for ground work. It was also witnessed that many dogs that proved themselves in the box, quit promptly working in the dark below the surface. This game test was probably the only thing the Staff´s had going for them when the Staffs more seriously started to be used for fighting.

For you everything seems very black and white, these are dogs, those ideas does not always apply on them. I could substantiate my posts with facts as you requested. For an example I could post a big amount of old match reports showing Stafford beating well-bred Pit Bulls. But I don’t see the point, and I don’t see what it would really prove? You would only reply that it was more Pit Bulls beating Staffs, which is granted! But with the above history lesson fresh in mind- a sincere person would give credit where credit is due! It is amazing that Staffs occasionally are able to beat good dogs regarding their short time bred for that purpose.

 

Here is a few articles to substantiate what I wrote in my previous post, after all this thread is called Staffies and Pitbull´s history. I believe some information in these articles has been disputed, but they are a good read for those who wants to learn.

http://raydelaney.net/terrier_network/staffords/dublin_red.cfm

http://raydelaney.net/terrier_network/staffords/dublin_red_pure.cfm

http://raydelaney.net/terrier_network/staffords/Irish_breed.cfm

 

The only thing that stands out to me as being black and white, is the simple fact, for whatever reason, Staffs did not compete against the top Ch or Gr Ch APBTs in the United States. Underground, or whatever is really irrelevant, as that is where the proof was, inside the box. I say modern 1960-??, not 1925. I do give Staffs credit for being part of the foundation, but thats all. Blame the recent Breeders of Staffs, or whatever you may like to blame, if Staffs cannot compete. I say compete not with simply game bred APBTs, but the elite fast lane APBTs. The Staffs that did win over APBTs, who campaigned those dogs? Joe nobody, or someone like STP? So, claiming Staffs "occasionally are able to beat good dogs" is relavent to what may be considered good. A cover dog from the Game Dog Times, the SDJ, or any known Ch or Gr Ch has not lost to a Staff in as long as I care to think. That is the point! It seems like Staff owners are very proud when their dogs beat any APBT regardless of ho good that APBT may be, kind of like a measuring stick or something. But how many fast lane APBT owners would have even pit their greatest dogs with Staffs? Probably none, unless it was for big money. There was nothing to gain but money for them, when beating a Staff.
Heres something to ponder, why didnt any of the APBTs that faired well over seas ever come back to the United States and win great recognition? Its just not Staffs that fail to win over elite APBTs in the United States.

 

Thank you for posting some history as i do know who Pete Sparks is. Here is my question though, I noticed the author of the articles shares the same name as the owner of the web site. that seems a little biased to me... And dogs "fighting every weekend"? What happened to keeps, or was that before keeps?

 

Tommy1985's dog is the black & white dog in one of my earlier threads, it's definately no keg and only one year old, where's yours?

 

Good comment, personally I believe the Japanese bought pitbulls because they obviously were buying the dogs in America not the UK or Ireland?
Also they wouldn't know their Arse from their Elbow about Pitbulls or Staffs and would have been depending on the truth being told to them by the sellers they were trading with, even if they were shown the dogs being rolled they'd be seeing average dog against average dog and it still would have looked better to them than anything they had in Japan, Was there not a contest set up in japan in the late 80s with 6 pitbulls imported from the USA and matched against 6 Tosa's? all pitbulls winning although a couple of them were outweighed almost twice by the Tosa matched against them?
it's unfair to ask why Japanese didn't go for Staffs in a country where the Staff barely existed anymore?
I'm not using this as an excuse as to why they took pits over Staffs, given the choice they still might have took the pitdogs, but they wouldn't have heard staffs of in the USA by dog fighters and breeders?

 

I pointed out in an earlier comment that although dogs improved in the USA they improved here and the UK also, it's not like time stood still here while the clock kept ticking over there, the point i also made is it's an English bred dog continued there, it's not an American breed.
I also pointed to the like of Damon who listens to noone and constantly contradicts himself that the improvements in stamina and staying power were down to what was learned about diet/feeding, conditioning and of course only breeding from the best dogs, the animal it's self hasn't changed, this "evolved" statement doesent belong in the debate, it improved, not evolved, it was already a good thing when the first ones were imported or should i say immigranted there with their owners.
ALSO if a few hundred of them arrived there off ships with Irish and English owners, it would've taken at least 15 years of breeding them before there was enough to begin seeing them around, then a good few more years before they became reasonably known and common so it's a fair assumption that from arrival and for the next 20 - 25 years those dogs were being bred and sold by the very Irish and English men who brought them and bred them?
Back to nutrition>>
Humans and animals in the mid 70s - 80s were probably healthier than now, Especially in the USA where the FDA has allowed artificial sweetners like Aspartame into the food chain and today theres so much obesity it's the biggest killer there so to claim advances in health & nutrition & health etc ?? those things have improved world wide except for the thrid world countries who are being wiped out by intentionally keeping them down by the powerful nations.
The numbers of pitbulls are greater there because the country and population is much bigger but the good ones here are as good as good ones anywhere else for all the same reasons.

 

There's a few typo's in there but im sure you's get it

 

he looks like a battle cross to me, Staff x English bull

 

yes you said that earlier, then contradicted it, remember i reposted both of your posts together where you contradicted yourself?