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staffies and pitbull's history

Discussion in 'Staffordshire Bull Terriers' started by DiMaSaLaNg, Jun 28, 2006.

  1. dougs85

    dougs85 Pup

    okay fine then i wasnt sure about that 1 but i have been corrected cheers for that so i take it that the higher height in the apbt is just due to the bigger dogs of a litter being breed with other bigger dogs of a litter then??There were no ther breeds involved in goving the apbt its height?
     
  2. dougs85

    dougs85 Pup

    or am i looking at this the totally wrong way and its the kc fault for making the uk staff so small that the apbt has its height lol??
     
  3. anoldun

    anoldun Pup

    i think you should take some time out and gen up on your dog history.....there are pages and pages of good common sense info on this board....no disrespect but its difficukt even reading your posts...regards.
     
  4. my slant on it was they ware once the same breed..looks wise they ware the same along came the show people like joe dunn and changed the breed by putting a show dog standard on them
     
  5. hmots

    hmots Big Dog

    Forgive my astonishment but.....WTF..... bulldog 101.... first came the wardogs of the roman empire , we could go back farther but its not required for this thred ...then evolved(by evolved I dont mean in the traditional sence I mean bread for a purpose) in western Europe, mastiffs, and moving forward selctive breeding for fight and ferocity mastiffs became bulldogs for that purpose, Bull Baiting.
    Now on to the OP's question, bull baiting being outlawed and prob prior, Bulldogs crossed w/ smaller terriers for pit fighting ......This began our breeds, Bull and Terrier .. I will say that of the three in Question the first was the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the foundation breed for APBT and Americian Staffordshire Terrier. When The Stafford was brought to America It was in large part the same dog of England/ Ireland. In the mean time the AKC was formed after failed attempts to register the breed with the AKC C.Z. Bennett formed The UKC and called the breed American Pit Bull Terrier .Being far removed from its roots in england the two breeds took diffrent paths .Some say out crossing in the US, but who knows .But in the uk the staffie suffered greatly as a result of show breeding.APBT stayed to its roots longer I think. Then came the still fereverent desire of some to register tha APBT with the ACK???? And APBTS name only changed.and were accepted as Staffordshire Terrier The AKC stud books were eventuly closed to new APBT's as ST's and the gean pool kept farly shallow. this took the ST in a different direction than the APBT .The Staffordshire Terrier's Name was Changed to American Staffordshire Terrier when the AKC recognized the Staffordshire Bull Terrier as a breed. Eventuly Conformity got the best of the UKC and the breed started to again move away from its roots .Then came the ADBA an ABPT only registry "Dedicated to preserving the breed". In short the three breeds all came from the same roots but each took a diffrent path in "Breeding Evolution" They have all been contaminated buy self serving breeders in an attempt to win whatever contest they were compeating in .I like to see dogs bred to old standards with high tenacity and fight/prey drive. Small to medium dogs capable of doing the work they were bred for.There are still examples of this in all three breeds. More so in the APBT ,but with the current bully trends in the UKC
    they are slipping too. Sorry for the abridged version but This is a post not a book....lol
     
  6. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

     
  7. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    You've hit the nail on the head, breeding the biggest available to the biggest available resulted in them being bigger, BUT over the last 10 years or more I'd also believe some have introduced mastiff type blood into the mix and then bred back to pitbulls, this resulted in the big squared headed beasts of 85/90 pound plus, some weighing over 120 pounds, This is one case of America's thinking of "Bigger is Better" seriously gone wrong, those big dogs wouldn't have the stamina of a pure game bred dog, you definately wouldn't want to be the handler of a dog weighing 80 - 90 pound at fighting weight? not that any of those overly big dogs were ever used for fighting, Although dog fighting is illegal the breed owes it's history to being a medium hight very athletic and agile fighting dog and thats the way they should be bred only, No monsters and No fat breathless Bully's
    The should be kept exactly as they were when first arriving there with Irish Immigrants, and that includes their Name/Title > Pitbull, not American Pitbull.
     
  8. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    Totally wrong, the "Pitbull" is an English breed taken to America by Irish Immigrants who first discovered the breed while working in England during very hard times in Ireland.
    Many of those workers brought Pitbulls back to Ireland and bred them, many Irish saved the money they earned in England and then moved on to America taking their dogs with them, this was how the breed was introduced to America.
    As time passed and laws changed many wanted to break away from the reputation and stigma of "Pitbulls" hence the name change to Staffordshire Terrier (usa) Staffordshire BullTerrier (uk), these were Show versions of the same dog, in the USA they bred them the same hight but with more conformity/type, square heads, big cheek muscles etc, in the uk they bred the Show version smaller, in the 1980s a show male would average 16 - 18 inch, now their about 15inch
    The Irish in the south of Ireland never changed them, the "Irish" Stafford is probably the closest thing you'll find to the original Pitbull, about 18 - 20 inch, some 21 - 22inch, weight from 30 - 55 or 60 pounds depending on hight and condition.
    The Staffordshire Terrier's name then had American added by the American Kennel Club so it's not the American Staffordshire Terrier and the Pitbull had the same addition and you'd named it the American Pitbull.
    But like it or it's an English breed and the only name it should ever have is "Pitbull" providing it's been bred from pure Pitbull breeding and not outcrossed like the big ones or the fat short ones.
    Here endeth the lesson.
     
  9. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    Thats basically correct, they were all "Pitbulls" then came the Kennel clubs standards which in the USA was much the same hight but with a more square head and pronounced cheek muscles etc > Staffordshire Terrier later to become American Staffordshire Terrier.
    And in the UK they bred them shorter/smaller with a wider build, name > Staffordshire BullTerrier,
    Apart from the breeders of Game Bred Pitbulls in the USA the only Place you can find them as they were from the 1800's in Ireland where their commonly referred to as the "Irish Stafford" or "Irish Staff" these are still like the dog introduced to America by Irish Immigrants, the same dog claimed as the American Pitbull. It's an English breed, it's a "Pitbull"
     
  10. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    the AMstaff IS the pitbull bred for conformity of size/shape of head and type while his cousins were bred for fighting and his looks were less important, this is why some pitbulls look exactly like AMstaffs, for the AKC to deny the AMstaff is a fighting dog it's attempting to avoid and publically disown the fact they are the same animal therefore keep AMstaffs out of the crosshairs of the law makers who may ban them like pitbull in the places where pitbulls are already banned.
    It is also important to remember that although some there in the USA are breeding monster pitbulls weighing over 80 - 100 pounds plus, they are ALL decendant of dogs brought there from the UK and Ireland by Irish immigrants, so their all Pitbulls in various shapes and sizes with the ones bred for show taking on the Staffordshire name Am-Staffs (usa) Staffordshire Bullterriers (uk&ireland).
     
  11. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    Totally wrong, the "Pitbull" is an English breed taken to America by Irish Immigrants who first discovered the breed while working in England during very hard times in Ireland.
    Many of those workers brought Pitbulls back to Ireland and bred them, many Irish saved the money they earned in England and then moved on to America taking their dogs with them, this was how the breed was introduced to America.
    As time passed and laws changed many wanted to break away from the reputation and stigma of "Pitbulls" hence the name change to Staffordshire Terrier (usa) Staffordshire BullTerrier (uk), these were Show versions of the same dog, in the USA they bred them the same hight but with more conformity/type, square heads, big cheek muscles etc, in the uk they bred the Show version smaller, in the 1980s a show male would average 16 - 18 inch, now their about 15inch
    The Irish in the south of Ireland never changed them, the "Irish" Stafford is probably the closest thing you'll find to the original Pitbull, about 18 - 20 inch, some 21 - 22inch, weight from 30 - 55 or 60 pounds depending on hight and condition.
    The Staffordshire Terrier's name then had American added by the American Kennel Club so it's not the American Staffordshire Terrier and the Pitbull had the same addition and you'd named it the American Pitbull.
    But like it or it's an English breed and the only name it should ever have is "Pitbull" providing it's been bred from pure Pitbull breeding and not outcrossed like the big ones or the fat short ones.
    Here endeth the lesson.
     
  12. wildchild

    wildchild Pup

    Great post activeirish, some of the ABPT members may come and throw stones at this reply, and feel sore, but oh well!
     
  13. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    The Pitbull was a Pitbull long before they were imported to the USA by the Irish/English and Scotts, it was already an established breed and bigger than our current modern day Staffordshire Bullterrier, apart from the Show versions being bred you'd need to remember > Pitbulls may have been banned in the UK but many still exist, they were NOT banned in Ireland where they have always existed and still do very much so, but we also have the original working strain Staffordshires which are also considerably bigger than the show version, the pitbulls and staffords here are still bred as they were BEFORE immigrants took them overseas.
    So if you're talking about Game Bred Pitbulls in the USA, they are exactly the same dogs today as they were when first taken there, the same as what we still have here also, it's not like the Irish and English took every Pitbull that existed over to the USA and we were left with just Show Staffordshires.
    All that being said and commonly known, confirms that the Pitbull is NOT an American breed, Although the monster 120 pounds mutts with a hint of mastiff or american bulldog or those short breathless un-athletic Bully's, they are an American creation in the wrong direction with some Pitbull blood in them.
    Bottom line is > a proper bred pitbull is an English breed no matter how long his ancestors have been in whatever country.
     
  14. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    you're probably right, but it's a fact and they need to face it, They've done the same with the Japanese Akita, now calling it American Akita.
    What they also need to remember is > America back in the times of the mass immigration by Irish,English,Scotts etc was a wilderness, the only people living there were American Indians, ALL the people and Dogs there today are the decendants of imports from other countries, Italian & Irish being the majority of them.
    Now unless I'm wrong I don't think the Indians > Souix, Cheyenne, Cherokee, etc had bulldogs and terriers? so therefore could not have produced a Pitbull before the Irish, English and Scott's arrived there so long ago they arrived by Sailing Ship? and if I'm right about that which I'm sure I am, then that's when and how Pitbulls got there? hellooooooo lol
     
  15. wildchild

    wildchild Pup

    Oh but when they got here, they they became more GAME !!! LOL
     
  16. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    hahaha, you're a star, very good
     
  17. OnTheRocks

    OnTheRocks Moderator

    Well...When they came to the US they had the benefit of a bigger breeding program so the dogs were improved in many ways, but I am not so sure gameness was one ofthe main benefits. I am sure they were game enough already! I have even spoken to an old time dogger who seriously claim that the American dogs actually where gamer 50 years ago, than today.
     
  18. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    Bigger breeding program? you have to be joking, the number arriving there off sailing ships even over a few years wouldn't have been a splinter off the block compared to the numbers STILL in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales combined, and there's no way on earth you's mananged to breed more or better dogs even after many years than all of the UK islands and Ireland were still producing. We're talking Dogs here NOT loaves and fishes.
    As for being gamer, these are dogs which fought to the death, there was always going to be a winner and a loser and very often the winner died later from shock or injury.
    Now if an animal is game enough to fight to the end is he less game Dying in England or Ireland than he is dying in America?
    Ask the old time dogger is a dog willing to fight to the end today less game than one willing to fight to the end 50 years ago? there may have been more dogs fighting back then because fighting was more common but you can't say they were more game, just more of them at it.
    There are many show types today that possibly couldn't fight as good as the dogs 50 years ago because of their structure, but there's still many being bred the old way today that can do it and would do it if made do it, and we all know it's still going on but in a much more underground way.
     
  19. cromsboss

    cromsboss Big Dog

    when these dogs arrived in the USA , they were bred more, worked more , developed more
    YES there was a bigger breeding program in the USA
    that's why the breed is the AMERICAN pit bull terrier
    it's was developed through a larger breeding program in the USA

    in an earlier post you say that the irish brought back these dogs from the UK and from there they went to the USA
    that's an impossible statement to prove, it's like saying the chicken came before the egg lol
    no one knows where these dogs were first developed, what is known is that they were common throughout Ireland and the U.K.
    no single country in the british isles can claim the origin of these dogs
     
  20. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    Thats comment is a real comedy, of course we all know where the dogs came from, why do you think they use names like English Bullterrier, Staffordshire etc, where is Staffordshire? >it's in the Middle of England
    plus there's enough info around going back generations which clearly states where they came from, in fact I have a cope of Game dog magazine from the USA Vol5 and there's mention in that about the dogs being imported from Ireland,
    Now as I stated earlier, America was a wilderness when the immigrants started arriving, and im sure the native indians didn't have chickens as well as not having bulldogs and terriers, all of those things would have arrived there as cargo with the people who owned them from wherever they came.
    explain to me how there was a bigger breeding program in a place where the dogs we're arriving for the first time than in the place where there was many thousands of those dogs already for many years?
    it's laughable that you then state no single country in the British Isles can claim the origin of these dogs, yet it's ok to claim them as American??
    So lets break down your other theory> when these dogs arrived in the USA , they were bred more, worked more , developed more
    YES there was a bigger breeding program in the USA that's why the breed is the AMERICAN pit bull terrier<
    If I selected some modern bullbreed type Eg; a boxer, then added some fire by crossing it with the very firey Irish bred Kerry Blue Terrier, and some of my friends did the same using the same breeds, then we bred the offspring of mine with the offspring of theirs until maybe 7 - 10 years from now we're producing Dogs with type and conformity and their look is Black with a tight but dense wirey coat because of the Kerry Blue blood and their of medium size, strong & muscular and very game, which they would be, and since I'm in Derry we call it the Derry Bullterrier, then we import them to the USA and people there go crazy for them and breed them like wildfire.
    Would they be an American Breed??
     

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