"bluff?"

Re: "bluff?"

if RE is not an apbt or a good representation of the breed because it was not bred to PERFORM a certain way or Do a certain thing, then none of the game breeders in this forum have a true APBT...might look like one...they were bred to one thing...



Despite their gallant history, pit bulls faced an uphill battle in gaining official recognition. The American Kennel Club was formed in 1884 for the sole purpose of promoting the interests of purebred dogs and their owners. To accomplish this, they sponsored events designed to test various breeds in the areas of performance and conformation.

Conformation events judge the dogs according to the breed standard - a pre-established set of guidelines that describe the most-highly valued physical characteristics of each breed. Performance events, on the other hand, test the dogs according to the function for which they were bred. Some of the more common performance categories include the working, sporting, and herding categories.

The performance events created an immediate problem for the pit bull since the function for which they were bred - fighting - was illegal. Furthermore, the AKC understandably refused to remotely endorse anything related to dog fighting. In response to the AKC's unwillingness to include pit bulls as a bonafide breed, in 1898 an alternative group was formed - the UKC (United Kennel Club). The purpose of the UKC was to certify breeds that were not eligible for certification by the AKC. Not surprisingly, the UKC's charter member was the American Pit Bull Terrier. The American Pit Bull Terrier still managed to work its way into AKC by going under the reference of the American Staffordshire Terrier. They are comprised one in the same, yet, over time the two have shyed away from each other by term to become two distinct breed types.

 

Re: "bluff?"

good night and God bless all of you...if we all agreed, the world would be a boring place...i'm glad all of you are here...

 

Re: "bluff?"

True, but on the other hand its a good thing dog men didnt think like you back in day. We'd be hugging a bunch a curs.

 

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.................

 

Re: "bluff?"

Throughout the 19th century, these dogs were known by a variety of names. "Pit Terriers", "Pit Bull Terriers", "Half and Half's", "Staffordshire Fighting Dogs", "Old Family Dogs"(the Irish name), "Yankee Terriers"(the Northern name), and "Rebel Terriers"(the Southern name) to name a few. In 1898, a man by the name of Chauncy Bennet formed the United Kennel Club (UKC) for the sole purpose of registering "Pit Bull Terriers" as the American Kennel Club wanted nothing to do with them. Originally, he added the word "American" to the name and dropped "Pit". This didn't please all of the people so later the word "Pit" was added back to the name in parentheses as a compromise. The parentheses were then removed from the name about 15 years ago. All other breeds that are registered with UKC were accepted into the UKC after the APBT. Another registry of APBTs is the American Dog Breeders Association (ADBA) which was started in September, 1909 by Guy McCord, a close friend of John P. Colby. Now under the stewardship of the Greenwood family, the ADBA continues to register only APBTs and is more in tune with the APBT as a breed than the UKC. The ADBA does sponsor conformations shows.

i guess change is only good if it suits you...

 

Re: "bluff?"

and if men thought like you, there would be no other breeds that grace our presence today, would there...

 

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The Old Family Dogs in 19th century Ireland were rarely above 25 lbs., and 15-lb. dogs were not uncommon. In American books on the breed from the early part of this century, it is rare to find a specimen over 50 lbs. (with a few notable exceptions). From 1900 to 1975 or so, there was a gradual increase in the average weight of APBTs over the years, without any corresponding loss in performance abilities. When kept good physical condition, the size of the APBT has grown, and so has their strength and ability without damaging the reputation of the APBT.if anyone in here has an APBT above 25lbs. it's a poor representation...right? no of course not!

 

Re: "bluff?"

Such a battle in this post.....im having trouble keeping up....what are we debating again i just cant go back and read it all............i messaged you TxBKennel

 

Re: "bluff?"

Not quite. Let's look at the passage you posted again ...

"The Old Family Dogs in 19th century Ireland were rarely above 25 lbs., and 15-lb. dogs were not uncommon. In American books on the breed from the early part of this century, it is rare to find a specimen over 50 lbs."

In the passage it says right there that it was the Irish Staff that rarely got over 25lbs. It goes on to say APBTs rarely got over 50lbs, a phenomon we still see today. The APBT was not created in U.K. It's forefathers were, but the APBT itself was created in the U.S.

In fact, this is a prime example of what we've been talking about. Immigrants in the 1800s brought their Irish & English Staffs w/ them when they immigrated to America. Once in America some breeders began breeding their staffs larger so that the dog could also be a livestock manager & large vermin exterminator. Once the breed increased in size it was then called the APBT. No longer were the resulting dogs referred to as a Irish Staff or a Stafforshire Bull Terrier b/c w/ the size increase they broke type & had created a new breed!

The same thing is going on today. We've got breeders out there like Greyline, RE, Eddington, Dagger, etc. that are breeding bluffs & bandogges but they want to hold on to the APBT name. Breeders of the past realized once you broke type you've got a new breed. Breeders of today don't seem to realize that. I guess the breeders of the past weren't as insecure about themselves & their dogs perhaps ...? Or maybe the names AmStaff or Bandogge don't sell pups as well ...? I don't know.

Maybe we should drop the "pit" & call these bluffs American Bull Terriers. After all, bluffs are bred for size & color w/ no regard to working ability or gameness, just like the English Bull Terrier is. Let the gamedogs retain the name American PIT Bull Terrier. That way the bluff ppl would be properly representing their dogs & they'd have a name like APBT, but not APBT (Kinda like their dogs! Like APBTs but not APBTs! Fits perfect! lol... lol... Sorry, couldn't resist!) Maybe that would make everyone happy ...? I think that is what I shall start calling them - American Bull Terriers or ABTs for short. After all, not every bluff is blue!

(BTW Txb you might not want to use the Whopper line as a representation of 'big pits." The Whopper line is a known mix & that came right from Edgar Eddington's mouth, may he RIP. The ADBA reg. the original cross-bred dog Wanna Be A Whopper as a favor to Edgar.)

 

Re: "bluff?"

I've refrained from posting here as all that seems to be happening here is a case of lets agree to disagree. But the following statement has goaded me into making a post.

That sir, IS the problem.....The more part. Who ever said bigger is better must not have been thinking about the end result for these animals. They have again and again proven themselves selfish. This is an argument that will continue forever as we will never agree.

Your dogs are large, soft, and from untested lines. They are not game bred, they are show bred. Every working dog that was taken over by show breeders has been ruined. We had a post on here a while back that showed what a working dog (husky I believe) looked like compared to a show dog. It would be just as relevant in this case. When people start breeding a working type dog for its looks, it ends up not being able to do the work it was originally bred for, as the looks part has nothing to do with physical abilities. I have had some beautiful APBT's and some pretty ugly ones. I don't care as long as they are physically capable. I breed my dogs rarely, but when I do, it's because the male and the female have both proven themselves to be great physical representatives of their breed. NOT because they look good.

The pictures that you have posted have shown dogs that were not from working stock. It is your choice, what you consider quality dogs. But I find it insulting to my intelligence, and my standards that you would consider any of them a true APBT. Dogs are not window dressings, they deserve more respect than you seem capable of, for if you truly respected the breed you would never own one of those overblown replicas and call it an APBT.

People have always been the downfall of living on this planet. Animals have one face and only one. They are what you see. But people hide behind faces that you'll never see past unless you learn to never trust, and thats a sad state for us. They push and demand that you conform and live like they say is right. Look at me they scream, I fit in. Sad really.

The main point of your argument....the registries say its an APBT...laughable. If you give them enough money, they'll say whatever you want. You insult the breed and will never listen to anyone about it because, "look at me, I'm right, I fit in."

Nuff said.

 

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drycreek,,you totally hit on this one! all the working lines have been ruined by show breeders! I wasen't going to post either,,but,,you are it today,,reps to you

 

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I totally agree Dry Creek!! I am really sick of reading posts by these Bluff owners/breeders trying to defend their currs. It is always the same argument, BLuff's are just as good if not better than APBT's, well as most will argree Bluff's are not APBT's. I know that the ADBA and UKC papers say American Pit Bull Terrier even though the dog weighs 100 lbs and is way outside the standard. Why don't these people get it!!! I am sick of hearing we need a new APBT for the future and that is were Bluff's come in. I don't need a new type of APBT because then it is not an APBT it is another breed. All I have to say is see a therapist about your dog if you can't deal with not having a real APBT.

 

Re: "bluff?"

Txb- Where the heck did you get your information????
Their natural aggressive tendencies are toward other dogs and animals, not people. However if they are properly socialized they will not even be aggressive with them.

This is NOT true. A true APBT has the possibility to attack at ANY minute. Your dogs could live together for years (and I've had this happen) then one day the bone is in the wrong mouth and you got a royal rumble on your hands. My female old Pit was VERY socialized when she was younger, but she will snap on a dime and corner one of the pups. Chyna has scares to prove it. Which is why I seperate them.
\
It is an extremely courageous and intelligent guard dog that is very full of vitality.

This board has went through this so many times it isn't even funny. APBT's should NOT be gaurd dogs. Yes, they will protect you. Yes, they will kill someone for you. But because of their power and their genetics it is almost never a good idea to train these dogs to be protection dog. I remember when I was younger hearing about a guy who tought his dog on the sleeve and one of his friends were fooling around a put the sleeve on and the dog ended up killing him. They were not breed to be gaurd dogs even though they will do it.

As with any breed, they should not be left alone with unfamiliar children

Any dog shouldn't be left alone with ANY child. Even if it is your pet at home.

Unfortunately, some choose to promote the fighting instinct in the breed, giving it a bad name.

That's not what gives this breed a bad name. It's the stupid people who buy them for protection or who have NO clue (I'm not saying I know everything) what they are doing with this dog that give them a bad name. SOME is an understatement with how many bybs and drug dealers who sale out there dogs left and right.

Height: 18-22 inches (46-56 cm)
Weight: 22 -110 pounds (10-50 kg)

Again where are you getting your information from. This is the first time I have seen such a wide span of weights. I mean come on, that is like saying APBTs are the only breed alive today that can be as small as a cocker spaniel or as heavy as a Mastiff. Makes no sense. The true standard I believe and correct me if I'm wrong is 20-60 pounds.
mongrel. At one time, the Pit Bull was a much loved, trustworthy companion. People who chose to train these dogs to fight are chiefly responsible for the banning and witch-hunting that has been sweeping the U.S.

Ohh that would explain why game breeders back in the day were always getting chewed up and killed.... hmmm. That's a remarkably targeted idea.

 

Re: "bluff?"

The only shred of credibility is that of the registry's are condoning these practices.... Not for the better of the breed on the whole ....strictly biz. The ADBA should register this breed of dog under a new name. There would be no complaints if they were to assume another specialty breed. They seem to have no problem rollin with the times (obviously). Their popularity is growing by the day, I would think that it is reasonable to Ask the the registry's to differenciate between the two......They have already established the prefferd lines to work within....With the exception that they work within those lines, not those of the gamedogs. Sure they will cry as their gene pool just got that much smaller to work with (no pun intended). However it will force them to make more concsientious choices when planning and producing this breed they have created.

The founders of this breed purposly developed it with the intentions to step away from the standard of the APBT. Now our APBT numbers out wiegh those of this other type breed, we can force this change within the community and the ADBA ....but we got to step up to the plate and make them assume thier responsibility in this.

I can't stop the procsess of progress with the APBT however I can help direct it.

And for this side stepper, I got news for you.....If your Vet is infact incouraging you to maintian your animals health on the level that you are....it is gross intentional malice on thier part. The fluxuation of 15lbs in wieght consitantly per year or season is not how you maintain a healthy animal and anyone who has studied Nutrional health knows this. I can only imagine how you are achieving this wieght fluxuation....by the looks of those dogs it's not by conditioning and proper feeding reigiman and that leads me to beleive that you are starving them down.....


As far as your "gamedogs" I advise you not follow the same pracites of that of your Re dogs.

 

Re: "bluff?"

You never answered this question, Tx? What is your opinion on these dogs? I was so sure you'd have one............

So, since my daughter is quite the looker at 5'7'', 100lbs, blonde hair, green eyes, I can whore her out & sell her babies? I can prostitute my children in order for me to make an easy living? And whose to tell me otherwise?

Your defense of people who are just making a business of abusing & neglecting innocent breathing 4-legged creatures all in the name of easy $$$ disgusts me more than you obviously can imagine. It's obvious that despite our differences in dogs, it's our differences in moral values & practices that keeps me from ever wanting to associate with the likes of you. Consider my words disrespectful or whatnot, but you defend the abuse & of God's creatures for the sake of money & our own humanly greedy interests.

Good day Tx. I will NOT continue to argue or debate with you as I cannot bring myself to stoop down to your bottom-feeding level. It's disguisting & disturbing.

 

Re: "bluff?"

sorry to break it to you but none of those dogs are "gamedogs" no one will ever convince me a BLUE 41lbs @ 4 months is a gamedog. If they are game dogs POST A PED. SCAN thier pedigree papers and post the pic of it here.

 

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where did this "standard " come from because I cannot for the life of me find on the ADBA or UKC page ANYWHERE that says APBT range from 22 - 110 lbs

 

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Really? If men thought like me, there wouldnt be a so called pitbill problem. And this thread would be uncalled for because there would be only PURE pit dogs.

But your right I guess, since men DONT think like me.

 

Re: "bluff?"

top dog looks like a great dane mix. bottom looks like a Cane Corso/Presa mix

 

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Well until yesterday afternoon, when i had my first encounter with a representative of our local "bluffs", I would have left this thread alone. I first want to say that I am not a newbie to these dogs, and have met and dealt with some of the greatest game-dogs breeders of all times. I have also had first hand experience with "bluffs" so I am not talking out of my butt on the subject. I can tell you that in my 18 years with game-bred dogs, and being on some yards of the most consistent CH. producing lines, I have never once been bit or even nipped at. A true APBT if raised right and bred correctly, will not attack a human. They are the most stable tempered dogs I have ever owned and fed. Most would not bite to save their life.

The "bluffs" on the other hand, have had everything from mastiff to catahoula mixed in to simply produce a color, with no care as to stable temperment or health. If you think these dogs are not responsible for the majority of all media reports of attacks, you have lost it. I again state that my game-dogs would not hurt a flea as far as a human goes, and I would trust them with my life or the lives of any adult or child. They simply will not do it. There has been many years of culling properly (which bluff breeders would never even think of doing) to maintain a stable temperment. Here is what a "bluff" is capable of doing. This is what the "friendly" dog that i asked to pet yesterday did to me, he was out in a public area, they were selling his pups. After the fact I learned that these people do not register their dogs anymore, due to the fact that they had a pup they sold, grow up to attack and maim a small child, and did not want to get in trouble with the law (didn't want it to be traced back to them).

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b267/GAPITS/IM000459.jpg - not for the faint of heart

So now tell me that that "bluffs" aren't responsible for attacks, tell me again that it's game-dogs that are bad.

In closing I would like to state that not all "bluffs" are dangerous or bad (I personally know several good breeders) or that no game-dog has ever bitten. But I would like to say that I personally would take a game-dog over any $2500 "bluff" anyday.