Old game Bred Bull terriers

Do you understand what I'm saying? The APBT is the same dog the British were using for fighting just with a different name.....

 

Do You understand Three is no American in the Name? Do You understand The pure one was 90% White?

 

You are clueless, the name doesn't mean anything . What's in a name? That doesn't change the fact that the APBT is the same Pit dog that the Brits were using long before they were shipped to America....

 

Wtf..show Bull terrier with egg Head was registred in the 1933!! This is history And sorry but You can't change It...

 

I understand you like so much the word american in the name of the breed but you forget they was all british...

 

What are you exactly trying to say....

 

That's what I've been telling you, are you crazy.....

 

You said i'm clueless and crazy but i don't want to tell you mine opinion about you cause with your great imagination you Can foresee what i think....

 

Bull Terrier ware recognized as a breed by the kc and registered well before1933...

 

Seriously do you even listen to what I'm saying?

 

I understand but Take out The american word Wen you talk about old and ancerstors because no American in The first pit dogs!!

 

The APBT are the same dogs that the British were using in dog fighting before they were shipped over, the only difference is the name, how hard is that to understand?

 

A bit of a mess but some points I've been compiling into a write up.

The best sources are from Newspaper articles at the time. The New York Clipper starting in 1853 was pretty much the fore runner to the Police Gazette in that the Clipper posted advertisements for contests, published accounts of contests, challenges and even acted as stakeholder for deposits and agreements for canine related sports.


Most of the Pit Bull Terriers being fought in the sportsman’s Halls in New York in the 1850's and onwards were imports or from recently imported parents. James McLaughlin, John Marriott, Harry Jennings and Kit Burns all owned well known and documented rat and dog Pits during this period until Mr Berghs Humane Society clamped down hard on them in the mid 1860’s. The baiting sports recently outlawed in England were still being practiced over in America. Baiting of the bear, coon, pole cat, prarie wolf, drawing of the badger and timed ratting contest were weekly occurrence’s with the night’s entertainment being rounded off with turn ups between the canines. All of these were an opportunity for the sporting men to test their dogs against each other, and other animals.

1857 - New York Clipper



Harry Jennings was an Englishman from London who came over around 1856 bringing two fine dogs from England with him, Lucky and Gypsy. After only being in America a few months he took over one of the sporting bars on Madison Street which he fitted a regulation sized pit 12x8 to the rear and set up business. His most famous dog was Waterford Jack an imported dog from Waterford, Ireland.

Jack saved Harry's life when one of his bears turned on him and had him down, Waterford Jack was well versed on the baiting of the bear and launched an attack on it.

“The bear has a way of slouching along by his keeper, seemingly indiffererent to his prescence, and never looking up to catch his eye, and suddenly wheeling on him and seizing him by the leg. That was the way that one of them came near to killing Harry Jennings a few years ago, when he had his place in White street. The brute had him down, and would have finished him, no doubt, but for the courageous attack on it in his behalf by his famous fighting dog, Waterford Jack.”


Jennings himself owned over 60 dogs of various weights ranging from small Black and tan ratting terriers, his fighting dogs ranging from 13lbs to 80lbs.



I have a lot more on Harry Jennings and Waterford Jack but it’s a mess of Newspaper clipping at the moment. Somewhere I have it that Waterford Jack was born in 1852 and died in 1862 and was certainly an old battle scarred warrior when Harry Jennings would trot him out for an exchange. Jack had no ears left and only one good eye and was a very crafty character in his old age often playing rope-a-dope lying on his back for the other dog. He was synonomous with Harry Jennings and there was a point where one couldn’t be mentioned without the other. Some of the prizes given out at these events where framed portraits of Jack. Harry Jennings also had a few run in’s being arrested for dog fighting on numerous occasions, losing the use of his hand after being shot in his own establishment and did a few years in prison, after moving to Boston, for a robbery that was organised in his establishment.

1860 – “photographs and frames of Waterford Jack awarded as prizes”


1861 07 02 New York Herald

“Small boys looked with admiration at "Waterford Jack" a celebrated dog who has seen better days, and watched every wag of his tail with silent delight"

02 03 1861 - New York Clipper


Boxing exhibitions at the old rendevous for all kinds of sport, from an elephant bait to a rat match, 22 White street, under the regimeof W.J.H. Jennings, "all the way from Lunnun" but now a proud citizen of our glorious, harmonious, and brotherly confederation (in a horn!) W.J. of course, means Waterford Jack, for neither Harry or the great unwhipt are ever mentioned but in conjunction, and then only to extol-therefore, friend Harry musn't get dogmatical because of the new name we give unto him, for his love of a good dog almost equals Gaffer Simeon's recitation of Llewllyn's hound who was slain by his master for the supposed worrying of his child.

04 02 1860 - NY Clipper

An Old but Game Dog - Among the most notable celebrities in the canine kingdom, is the celebrated dog Waterford Jack, who seems to improve, like good wine, the older he grows. He is one of the gamest animals that ever showed teeth. It was the intention of the owner, Harry Jennings, to have let him rested in quiet for the remainder of his days; but as there are several who have signified their ability to "take him down", Mr Jennings has determined to give them one more chance; and on the 16th inst. Waterford Jack will again appear in the arena, to contend against Mr W. Gorman's (of Brooklyn) red dog Jack, for $100 aside. An exciting journey between these canine champions is anticipated on the appearance of the old'un. The place will take place at Harry Jennings', at 8PM.

25th February 1860 - New York Clipper

“Monday night the big thing came off between Waterford Jack and Red Jack a Brooklyn dog, which brought hundreds from our sister city over here.

It was after 9 they commenced, and lasted three quarters of an hour. The betting entirely on Waterford Jack. The red dog appeared stronger and fresher while Waterford Jack (cunning rogue) would lay on his back and fight ala the Frenchman and Captain Hammersley. A turn was had and after the dogs were sponged the old warrior rushed in like a bull at a gate- in truth he's a regular Zouave, and just so long as his legs will support him, or with half an eye (he has only one good one you know) Waterford Jack is bound to scratch. There is where he can be relied on,, for although he seems incapable of severe punishing powers, there's got to be a defunct canine in the pit ere his dead game leaves him. When it came to the red dogs turn to scratch, it was all over, for he "warnt thar" A yell like thunder arose from Harry and his dog Jack, which might almost have been heard in the central park.”

In 1879 Harry took 21 of his and others select stock aboard a steamer to New Orleans to test the gameness of the others mens dogs. Only two fights were pulled off due to the law and mayor awaiting his arrival. One of these dogs was a 29lb dog called Spot and owned by Cockney Charley Lloyd.


According to Don Mayfield Cockney Charley Lloyd had been importing dogs to America from the 1850's. A man called George Saville better known as “Sheffield George” brought the dog Bess over from Liverpool for a contest in 1861. George stayed on in America setting up as proprietor of a bar. George was the man who conditioned Lloyds Pilot for his victory over Crib in 1881, and handled and conditioned Ned the dog that beat Pilot in 1882, mainly through Sheffield George’s superior conditioning and Pilot repeatedly fanging himself.


Pilot was born around 1879-80, bred by John Holden of the Red Lion Inn, Walsall, a district of Staffordshire. Pilot came to America early to mid 1881, probably at the same time George Holden the boxer and nephew of John came to America to stay with Cockney Charlie. Pilot had never fought in the Pit before but from try-outs was said to be one of the finest fighting dogs around.


August 1881 – National Police Gazette New York


“Pilot is said by excellent judges to be the best fighting bull-dog in the world. He has a bad disposition at times and not even Charley can approach him. The dog is a great pet of Mrs. Lloyd's and when he is in his tantrums he will allow no one else but her to feed and attend him. Cockney Charley has another great dog Paddy, which is said to be just as renowned as Pilot. The pair are the two best in America and anyone possessing fighting dogs weighing 27 and 27 and 1/2lbs., that think they can whip either Pilot or Paddy in a fair scratch-in-turn fight, can win a small fortune.


Pilot is a brindle and white dog, fighting weight 27lbs., and was bred by Mr. John Holden, of the Red Lion Inn, Park Street, Walsall, England, and is now 2 and a half years old and was got by Mr R. Small's dog Billy, of Sedgley, out of Tom Darby's bitch Kit, and Billy's father was from Lane Billy out of Tom Parson's bitch Beauty, and Beauty was out of Fred Reeve's bitch Tet, and Tet was got by Fred Reeve's dog Joey, and Joey was got by Joseph Inseley's bear dog: the bear dog was bred by Sam Cooper, of W. Hampton, out of Sam Cooper's bitch Lady, and Lady was bred by Frank Evans, of Willenhall, and was got by Sam Cooper's dog Captain, and he was bred by Frank Evans, of Willenhall, and his fighting weight was 31 and 3/4lbs. Beat Philip Lantern's dog, of Sedgley, for £25 a side; beat John Woolley's dog, of Manchester at 33 and a 1/2lbs., for £50 a side; beat George Rowley's dog, Toby of Wednesbury, at 36lbs., weight for £25 a side; beat George Rowley's Curley, of Wednesbury, at 32 and a half pounds weight for £25 a side; beat John Woolley's dog, of Manchester, at 35lbs weight for £50 a side; beat James Halford's dog Gallus, of Hall Green, near Bilston, at 34lbs., weight for £30 to £20 in stake and £110 to £50 in a bet, and the same Captain took first prize twice in the dog show at Birmingham.”

 

Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

The oldest mention I have found of the term Staffordshire Bull Terrier , is this advert from - "The Bazaar Exchange and mart" (1871 November 29th).



Walsall described as the dog fighting centre of th black country. Extracts from an article from The Field Publication on Fighting dogs later republished in 1872 in by JH Walsh in his book “The dogs of the British Islands”.




Later Mentions of Staffordshire fighting dogs –

1907 Dog Fancier





1908





1911



1917

 

that the only thing right yu did say on this thread...
apbt or bull and terrier have to come from somewhere... if you look at the old bulldog painting from the 1800's you will see that they look very similar ^^ of course they was more variation as peoples didn't care if there was white or black or rednosed, short or long legged and so on, all they was asking is the dog doing the pupose he was ask to do.

 

No I'm one of the few that actually talks sense.

The original Bulldog is now extinct, either that or the APBT is the true Bulldog. I guess the APBT is a Bull and Terrier. He sure does look like the Bulldog on paintings and can do the same jobs the Bulldog could....

 

pleaz tell me yu don't believe all that shit ?
maybe they still have the desire to go but no way they are at the level of the fastlane dogs, no way !!
working ability is one of the hardest thing to breed for, and yu loose it faster than yu gain it...one or two generation of peddling/or breeding on looks and you kill 10 generation of hard work ^^

 

that not the same as yu was saying before:

 

It did you in all but it's name, surely this is not hard to understand?

 

With all due respect most pure breeds history was romantacised. What you may call fact is merely what someone put down in writing. Whether the APBT is a result of a cross between Bulldog and White Terrier or it is the old British fighting dog, just know that its not a cross of the modern British Bulldog and modern EBT. Its origins were working dogs and later they were fighting dogs.
Modern British Bulldogs and EBT are far removed fromfr game dogs. You can cross the two and try breeding something close to the APBT if you feel differently.