Which dogs created the APBT?

I do believe that the first original bulldogs were comprised of some of the molosser breeds, yes.

 

I'm not sold on that being an AB. I believe those dogs are Bully Kuttas or Gull Terrs.

 

It did. I belong to some AB forums & find myself getting into Schutzhund & Ringsport with the breed.

And everyone I've talked to has stated that the AB has been derived from crossing the APBT to other breeds. Therefore, the APBT obviously came first.

 

It seems like no matter which book you pick up, or what person you talk to, EVERYONE has a different "theory" as to how the APBT came to be. I recently read, as to the origin, that the ancient Greeks had huge ferocious dogs that they called "Mollossians", which historians believed originated in Asia. During the 6th century BC, Phoenician traders brought some of these Greek guard dogs to England. There, they flourished and became the ancestors of England's early Mastiff-type dogs. When the Romans invaded Britian, supposedly they were met on the beaches by Britian's fierce Mastiff-type war dogs, who were seen to have been fighting side by side with their owners. The Romans admired these traits and these fighting dogs so much, that they then, sent many of them home to Italy. These dogs were called"Pugnaces", or broad/wide mouthed dogs of Britian. Then, as the Roman Legions spread across Europe, so did these dogs. These "warrior dogs" also, it is believed were used in Roman circuses, where they were used to fight savage animals of other species, armed men, and, each other. At about 395 A.D., the Roman historian "Symmachus" wrote about several Irish Bulldogs who had participated in a circus event and left the crowd "stunned" due to their "savage fighting and brave attitiude", and termed these dogs to be "bulldogs" due to the fact that they were the same type dog that was used to fight bulls.

Supposedly, during 'ancient times', there were no "breeds" as we know them today, and the dogs were typically named for the work they did, i.e., in England, all guard dogs of massive size were considered mastiffs, and dogs that were quick, brave small and agile enough to enter a hole in the ground (terra) after wild game, inparticular, were called "terriers". Then, in 1692, a dictionary definition was given to different dogs based on their capibilities, where it was termed the "Bulldog" was also known as the gladiator.

A famous British historian, Jesse, (George R.), wrote that the bulldog was the result of selectively breeding Masstiffs to produce a smaller, more agile dog, that posessed a recessed nose=to enable him/her to be able to breathe more freely, while holding onto a bull, with a more pronounced, protruding jaw.
Tho, the dogs of long ago, it is said, differ greatly from the bulldogs of today, in that then, they were taller, more agile, with nearly straight, front legs and their muzzles were longer, and tails were said to be longer, as well.

In the 1800's when bear and bull baiting was popular, but was then halted when the Humane Act of 1835 came to be=making all blood sports illegal, the interest of dog fighting grew even more. It is here, some say, that bulldog breeders tried something"new" in the hopes that a faster, fiercer fighter would emerge, and the bulldog was crossed with the toughest, quickest and bravest terrier. Supposedly, this 'cross' was believed to enhance the fighting ability of the bulldog by reducing its size, while at the same time, maintaining its strength and increasing its speed and agility.
"Although some historians say the smooth-coated Black-and-Tan and the White English Terrier (now extinct) were most frequently crossed with Bulldogs, others say the Terriers were chosen ONLY on the basis of gameness and working ability, and that a variety of Terrier-like dogs were used".

I've read, that in 1881, 2 dogs: Lloyds' "Pilot" (owned by "Cockney Charlie" Lloyd) and "Crib", (owned by Louis Kreiger) were said to have weighed in under 28 pounds for the "big match". A BIG difference as compared to the dogs we have today, and a bigger question, as to why the size increase?
Again, many more theories: as the dogs traveled west, and due to their working demands of guarding homesteads, rounding up livestock, protecting the farm from predators, etc, that's where and why the size increased. But really, who knows? and all we can do is read many different points of view and speculate, guess and perhaps even assume a lil as well. and BTW, many of todays APBT owners can still trace their dogs' ancestors back to several strains of superior dogs who also arrived here during the 1800's, a few of which are: Corvino, Farmer, Colby, Gas House, Feeley, Farmer, Tudor from England and Noonan and Semmes form Ireland, to name a few.

So, is there one theory? Hell no, not by a l-o-n-g shot. There are many, i imagine! There are MANY, and for every 10 people you ask, i imagine there will be 10 more POV's. Who's right? Who's wrong? ...who knows, ...

Interesting thread. I find the history and the different view points very intriguing.

 

Not sure on the date of this photo but it's pretty darn old, the muzzle is too short to properly cool his brain down so he couldn't of been too athletic, yet he looks to be in great shape must have a really nice handler with tons of time on his hands.

 

Thankyou for that nice example, it helps me to explain what a real thorougbred is. You talked about the alaskan-husky wich is in fact a very young mix-mutt breed. And you ask what alows these dogs to perform this task while dragging a sled in below freezing temperatures? And then you give the answerrive and Physical attributes. Fine, and now I tell you W H Y this dogs have this traits. There breeder used real THOROUGHBREDS like Greenlanddogs and working Eskimodogs to create this dogs. You could forged alaskan huskys if they had none of this special-genes. You say 99% of other dogs cant compete. I say show me the 1% and I show you the thoroughbred. Maybe the alaskan is a few min faster then the greenland-dog but i tell you if the alaskan had to live the live of a true inuit dog wich means the live of the thoroughbred he would die very fast. Can the alaskan sleep outside till 70 degrees below o ? Alaskan need good food much care and they are by far not as hard as the true inuit dogs. They have to much questionable strange blood they are a good example for a destroyed thorougbred. True sleddogs are not only puller and runner they are fighter ,hunter and surviver. People needet thousands of years in a frozen world to create the real thing and then some freaks come around and cross some hunting and wind-dogs in the true bred and then this experts really think they create something better...lol...Btw. you think the first dogs were only 35 pound heavy? Out of 25-45 kg heavy wolfes? Interesting.

 

The 1% are light long legged dogs such as the border collie.

So your suggesting that the "bulldog" is a throughbred, even though there is no evidence of it exsisting till the 1500's? Even greater notice, the APBT is a product of a Mix-Mutt of that breed and even further the Americans breeders did tons of outcrosses to produce what we have today. Although what we have today are amazing dogs, there is nothing I've ever seen that suggests to me that there qualities would be impossible to reproduce with out 1000's of years of selective breeding. What you have outside is the product of a hundred years worth of selective breeding but is your stock any better then his ancestors in the 50-70's? Probably not.

It's my opinion that APBT's can be reproduced with in 50-100 years of selective breeding from good terrier and good mastiff blood. The APBT has a niche and thats what makes it the best dog for the job not some long winded romantic story about how they are the product of 4000 years of selective breeding.

Do you really think these people had the time/equipment and desire to pre-plan breedings and then on top of that make sure for almost a month that the bitch doesn't get bred by another male. They sure didn't have the fancy set ups we have today.

Oh and BTW.....lol....... ever heard of evolution the wolves didn't fit the niche we created. Their flight distance is way too long, i.e. when scared they run too far, and they are way too big, i.e. more calories need to be consumed to maintain their large bodies. So through culling (I.e. the ones that are too big and have brains too large just starve to death) a new type of canine was created that was small enough to maintain it's body on the relatively poor diet that we provided for them (waste). The dogs that fit that niche near the equater where the smallest and on the mountians the dogs where the largest but none where the size of mastiff's.

 

Oh Quarter, Quarter where should I start.....The 1% that can compete with the alaskan huskys are border collies? Ok then I will try with them the iditarod. Do you know from where ouer mathematics came? As your(and mine) forefathers still played with her excrements ,advanced civilizations already existed in other points of the earth. Yes my Friend this people had the time and equiqment and desire to create thoroughbreds. And much more important they had the special knowledge, knowledge wich is unaffordable. With some Terriers and some mastiffs you could in about 50-100 years reproduce the good ole Bulldog.Have mercy. What do you think how old is the story of the noble arabic horses? The story of the best game flowl(aseel)? The story from the sloughi (arabic-desert-dogs)? Yes my friend all that are long winded and romantic storys...but they are true,as true as the story from the long -winded small Bulldog wich is able to bring the biggest mastiff down...or a Bull.

 

Hope this doesn't get me banned









Pit bulls don't seem to do well with bulls for more then a few minutes.

From most reports the game "bulldogs" where not effective at fighting with other dogs, thus the outcrossing with terriers.

 

Banned? Why? Quarter I see this makes no sense but I also see that you are not dumb. I never sayd that ouer choice of dogs is indestructibly. But try to concern it logically. Wich kind of Terrier you see in Bulldogs? I cant find any kind of Terrier in them but I see in many working Terrier a good dash Bulldogblood and I personally see in every real working type mastiff and in many hounds Bulldogblood. Remember? Sign 4.) Thoroughbreds are always very useful with create of new races. See it like this, if you cross a Terrier with a Greyhound you get a good hunting-dog but with this dog you would have no chance on the race track against pure Greyhounds. What does this mean? It means 1.) the genetic task keeps the line (Greyhound) clean. 2.) with help of the pure and strong genetic something new can originate without changing the origin. And exactly this you can transfer on the Bulldog, wich means there was incrossing, sure and some new races originated (English Bullterrier, Patterdale, Parson Jack Russel, Seylham, only to name a few) but the Bulldog conditoned by his genetic task doesnt change. Thatswhy you can look at old and very old pictures and you find exactly the same working Bulldogs we have today. And dont be confused if you see a pic from a outcross (you find very much from them between 1750 and today.) Regards

 

omg..sorry im coming out of nowhere but i'd have to agree with quarter...it seems many of you are in denial that a GREAT amount of terrier blood indeed makes up a large portion of the APBT. These terriers indeed however are not the 'winpy' (which indeed they are not) sealyhams, jack russels, airedales or whatever other common terrier comes to mind, they were the old black-and-tan, the white english and the manchester (arguably the oldest breed of terrier look it up). there are heaps of evidence to suggest the APBT is in fact 50/50 bull to terrier (hence the old time name of 50/50 and bull-and-terrier) plus generations of selective breeding, however on the flipside beside old pictures there is no evidence to suggest that they are the 'thoroughbred' bulldogge of olde. i would further argue that the staffordshire bull terrier of england and the pit bull are practically the same breed (meaning of the same stock, with the terrier crossings being made in britain be4 immigration to america) however through selective breeding and isolation they were bred their different ways. Gosh but yet again i wince when people deny the substantial infusion of terrier bood that is in the APBT for evidence just look at some of colby's old imports, they scream terrier (white english and black and tan that is )...also for further reading and EVIDENCE just look up good websites like molosserworld.com or molosserdogs.com and read some good books on the parent breeds like the staffordshire bull terrier of england, the blue paul of scotland etc. etc.. please i know some of you would love the idea of our breed being the pure and original bulldogge of olde (indeed i would too) but the historical evidence states that that just isn't the case, terriers aint all that wimpy the smooth haired long legged terriers of old were quite game hence their mixing into the genepool of the bulldog to create the forebears of the APBT. lol well that's enough of my ranting (and just realized this was an old post woops srry) and p.s. yes those dogs baiting the bear in the pic above are gull terrs

 

They have lots of terrier in them.

Why would original working bulldogs be used for ratting lol ? They wouldn't that is why. Of course they had terrier, there are far more accounts in England of them being used for rat baiting than dog fighting . Where do you think their ratting abilities came from ? What is this "touch" of terrier theory come from. They had lots of terrier. Show me a real 100% bulldog that can kill over 100 rats in a pit in a few minutes or show me a terrier that can pin a bull. Only when mixed can they do both. They are called pit bull terrier for a reason not just for fun. Stick to the facts people, if you don't like terriers that is your choice but altering history to fit your own beliefs is sad. Facts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-baiting

Billy was one of the most famous bull and terriers of his time. I believe Alken even drew his picture. He was very much a BULL and TERRIER. Check the history of Westminster pit.

Have any of you ever done earth work with terriers ? They are also game. I'd be interested to know how many people on here do that as opposed to using dogs for pulling large weights.

 

Done plenty of earth work with terriers and used my own dogs for the draw .
Seems to many people dismiss the gameness of well bred terriers ,well I am gonna say the majority of well bred terriers will always scratch or die trying against any opponent.

 

That is why I asked. It is only those that HAVE NOT worked dogs (I don't mean work as in pulling weights or agaility) that dismiss terrier gameness.

You realise what terriers are in terms of gameness as you have worked them. You can also see the terrier traits in the APBT; because you have worked terriers. That is why I asked, as it always seems that the people who do not understand how game terriers are (working terriers) are the ones that have never worked them. Some people who own APBT and dismiss the gameness of terriers, have not even put another dog against a rat let alone badger or other dog! Then actually go on to say that the APBT gets its gameness from the bulldogs and not the terriers ! It comes from both, Paterdales working wheatons etc are VERY GAME DOGS. I've owned all sorts of game dogs and had many bull and terrier (worked) but on average out of a litter of pups game bred or not I've had as many curs out "game bred pit bulls" than I've had out of a working line litter of jack russels!

 

OK well lets compare the bulldogs and terriers of old England /Britian .
The Terriers on average smaller dogs 10-20 pounds used basicly against all the native british wildlife but mainly foxes ,badgers and otters plus as ratkillers ,terriers went to earth and faced their foes in their own enviroment and and in the case of badgers could be outweighted and more often than not had to stay on their foe for a few hours until they were dug down to ,and by the way only one terrier at a time went in ,if more than one terrier is put to earth in their eagerness to get to their foe one will push the front terrier into the foe getting it severly savaged because its unable to move also they can jam each other in the set .

The bulldogs used for bullbaiting and occasionally bearbaiting in Britian ,bears were well extinct by this time period so any bear baited was imported so it would have been a rare occasion when a bear was baited.

Bulls /cattle these were domesticated animals who plodded around a field to put as much weight on as possible in the quickest time possible and when these bulls were baited they were taken to a field tied to a ring with a length of rope and bulldogs took turns at pinning them .not knocking what these bulldogs done but I say terriers because of their work were every bit as game as these old bulldogs and at times needed more gameness.

 

I was searching for a controversial article I have somewhere concerning the origins of the pitbull and found this ,forgot I had it

 

yes! evidence!... thanks for that wonderful article castle proves our point exactly the pit bull is as much terrier as he is bull (or close to the same but you get what i mean)

 

Real simple answer... Dogs like Lloyds pilot, the gas house dog the imported dogs that colby got a hold of and the rest of the bull and terrier imports... THOSE dogs made up what is now in america the AMERICAN (pit) Bull-Terrier

 

double post

 

This is an overlooked post. I almost bit at the 'American" label and thought it was a bait to use British and Irish. However it is a good point. He his highlighting the American part here to suggest that maybe we should be starting from the dog's that were first imported to the USA from Ireland and England and not before. After all the question I have just noticed was about the American strain of pit bull terrier (APBT) and not the pit bull in general.