staffies and pitbull's history

Is it really? There are game bred Staffs mainly in four countries in Europe. Three of these countries are regarded as very small countries. Even in these countries the game bred Staffs would be totally outnumbered compared with the game bred Pit Bulls present! Even in these countries you would probably have the ratio of a 100 or more APBTs on each Staff. These countries are not the best countries to live in if you appreciate game dogs.

The biggest Staff yards I personally know of has about ten dogs! And that is just a couple of yards! I have said it before; I personally probably have one of the biggest yards in the world of game bred Staffs. But compared with most APBT yards my yard would look like nothing. So the amount of Game bred Stafford’s left today is numbered in a few hundreds, not more.

Pit Bulls tough, are located in the USA, Mexico, South America, China, Japan, Russia, the Balkans etc. These are countries with huge populations. There are countless yards with more than a hundred dogs at any given time. Then we have all the game bred APBTs sitting at all the small yards, or even living as pets in peoples homes. All together there are probably at least a million game bred Pit Bulls in the world.

Honestly, Tom Garner alone probably produces more dogs in one year than there are game bred Staffords left!

As I see it Icepick, your statements are comparable with someone that puts down a really rare vintage car because it can´t compete with the racing cars of today. The only flaw in the comparison is that now and then, a Staff comes up that can compete with any dog. Just as there where a few Pit Bulls in the 1920´s, that would hold their own against pretty much any modern APBT.

Can we please stop this "my dad is stronger than yours" debate? Or stop debating who should have credit for what? I personally dont care. I am not from the UK, nor the USA.

 

pretty well said on the rocks thats why i give credit to the guys still keeping dogs true to form in any breed instead of hate apprciate

 

Those athletics staffs may look the part but if they are not tested they are only as good as those fat barrels. I doubt they even exist, they probably have AMERICAN PITBULL TERRIER blood in them somewhere down the line

 

hows your staffs bred on the rocks ?

 

Lol glad to see your taking care with what you type now even introducing capitals. No more typos! Congrats mate. But how many 'AMERICAN' pbt's are actually tested game? A very very small percentage given the number of them that are now kept as pets in america nevermind anywhere else. So this means they are as useless as the barrel shaped show crap too? Look far enough back into any pedigree pitbull and the chances r that they r descendants of what came off the boats. Question.. Why is it the top game dogs now look very very similar to very old pictures of pitbulls from years ago? Wud this not suggest that this was what people were trying to preserve along with the gamesness because it was a formula that worked then and still does today?

 

So by your math, for every litter if game bred Staff's born (average of 5) there are 5 million game bred pups lol... Thats just an extreme exaggeration lol. There are more game bred APBTs without question in the world, but then ask yourself why. Its because people are breeding the better of the two breeds, and they have proven it. As you pointed out game bred APBTs are being bred around the world, so why arent Staffs? It has nothing to do with heritage, name, or where they were bred lol. When certain Japanese business people come to the U.S. and offer 6 figures for a well known Gr Ch, they arent doing it simply because its an APBT. If there were better Staffs than that APBT, then they would have been trying to buy Staffs. That simple, its about winning.

If game bred Staffs are "vintage", its for a reason And it appears to me that anyone trying to compete with game bred Staffs IS doing it for nostalgic reasons!

 

This thread is about Staff and Pitbull (APBT) history. The question of how the APBT evolved was brought up, and I think it has been proven with facts. Rarely have Staffs won against a game bred APBT, and to my knowledge a Staff has never beaten a serious game bred Ch of Gr Ch APBT in recent history. If anyone does have verifiable proof (a game dog report) please feel free to post it. Gameness is most often measured by a stop watch and while there have been a few Staffs that have went over 2 hours, there are probably hundreds of APBTs that have.
Its like Gracie jujitsu and the MMA. The Gracies dominated in that sport in its early days, but now a person who only practices Gracie jujitsu has little or no chance of beating a top class well rounded MMA fighter. Evolution of the sport that is easy to see...

 

I agree with u up to a certain point on the mate but I think anyone keeping game working staffords within ireland and england keep what they do to themselves and a precious few involved for 2 reasons, one is because when the kc messed up the dogs breeding them for aesthetics it became a victomof its own success being so good with ppl it flourished as a family pet which has more or less drowned out all but a few of the original working dogs leaving people who have them very wary of who gets a pup. The second reason is the law.. They can't advertise these dogs for what they are and responsibly won't sell pups to anyone looking to keep it as a pet for fear of the lines being watered down even further.

 

Gameness measured with a stop watch? Gameness.. A desire to win so strong that a dog is prepared to die trying? If a dog is on the losing end of a fight even if its fifteen mins long and he won't back down and continues to fight and dies after twenty mins. That dog was game! He may have lacked in ability or stamina but he was game. I think the only thing measured with a stopwatch is the length of a fight. Two dogs equally matched and both game may fight for 2+ hrs.. Eventually the dog with the best conditioning and stamina will win. This does not mean the losing dog was less game. I think people are too caught up with the length of a match

 

If quoting my post, please include all of the statement lol. GAMENESS IS MOST OFTEN MEASURED WITH A STOP WATCH, that doesnt mean all the time lol.

 

Where talking about gamedogs not pets or showdogs, true, if the pit isn't from working lines it is just pure show! But I bet those athletic non working pits have working stock in their lines a hell of a lot more recent than the so called Irish staffs. True, gameness isn't measured in time but stamina is, and this is another area where the pitbull as improved over the staffs

 

The barrel shaped staffords u mentioned before are show dogs and pets. The leggy athletic staffords have to come from working stock as anythin else wudv left the similar to show crap, so ur arguement for the athletic non tested pitbulls can stand for the athletics staffords which needs to have recent workin lines if they are so far removed from the barrel crap.

 

Lol didn't mean to jump on that so hard, just think its funny how people are talking about levels of gameness and far as I'm concerned its either game or its not. Could see where ur coming from tho

 

Bullshit I say, they may look athletic but that doesn't mean anything. Those blue athletic staffs with the pricked ears look the business but I can bet my bottom dollar there no good for the game

 

I don't know how you can't understand there's different levels of gameness! Let's say a dog scratches 5 times over 2 hours and quits on his 6th scratch, this dog is far from a cur but he is not deep game

 

You never answered my question as to why u think modern top game dogs look so similar to the very early pitbulls.

 

damon
what dogs are you running ?

 

You can laugh all you want; there is just a handful of truly gamebred Staffs born each year! If we create a simple rule, within two generations the dogs must have been tried to be called gamebred. Then the amount of truly gambred Staffs is just a handful these days. We are talking about something extremely rare, something you will probably never have the pleasure of seeing with your own eyes! Within 10-20 years the last may be gone too.

The Stafford’s where mainly used to draw badgers up until the end of the 1960´s, many have claimed that the Teastas Mor badger trial was as a good gametest as any. Therefor the Staffs where kept game. When the Irish kennel club quit sanctioning the Badger trials, the dogmen of Ireland returned to match their dogs as the main focus. In the early 1980´s they discovered that they could benefit from the much bigger breeding program of the APBT. Just about everyone ditched the Staffs and started to work Pit bulls. Recently I heard some of the more famous dogmen of Ireland saying they regret ditching the Stafford’s, because with all the breeding they put into the APBT- the staffs there would have had the same quality.

To finance their pit bull imports, the Irish sold the whole Stafford stock more or less over to England, where they later got the DDA- which made sure they kept to the Stafford’s! The Englishmen started a more focused breeding program and the quality of the Stafford slowly started to evolve. Now and then a Stafford pops up that would give any APBT a run for its money. With this in your mind, it´s pretty damn impressive! In my hay day I saw dogs from top breeders in both the US and the Balkans fall short against Stafford’s.

Now, if the Japanese where interested in testing their dogs at badgers, I am sure that the Staff would be the option over the APBT. The fact that something is all over the place is not any proof of quality in itself! In this country we have McDonalds (another American business venture) in pretty much every corner, everyone eats there. But honestly we have better food at our own restaurants! But they are not located at every exit of the freeway.

I know that the Japanese got hold of the old magazines, and got very inspired. They went to the US and bought loads of dogs. Many dogs they bought proved to be pure garbage, because many of the peddlers they went to saw a business opportunity and sold whatever crap they could get their hands on expensively to the Japanese dogmen. So in this case it had nothing to do with quality, it was marketing! If the Staff would have been marketed as the number one fighting dog in the world, and sold all over, I am sure things could have looked way different for the breed.

But as of now, the real Staff is a rarity, and they are for those with a taste for them. The debate on which breed is the best, or whatever is just childish. They are not on the verge of getting extinct because they were not as good. They are getting extinct because dogfighting fell out of fashion in Europe. When the fashion came back there where already more evolved breeding programs in the US! Breeding programs that was founded on dogs that where brought over by ancestors to the same Irishmen and Englishman, who brought the fashion back in Europe.

I am pretty sure that in the future this debate will pretty much repeat itself based on American dogs versus some other strain that has evolved somewhere in the world. I am sure the debate will be pretty much identical. I am also sure that there will be americans that has pride in their heritage and stick to their dogs no matter what.

 

A game dog will die trying. Any dog that quit cold in a match wasn't bred from in the early days.. There was a reason for it, to preserve gameness..