Paper Hanging!

[misterdogman]

In the book by Frank Rocca (pardon me if I misspelled his name) "Fighting for Life" I believe he makes the statement that Maurice Carver told him while on his death bed, that CH. Honeybunch was not off Wallings Bullyson as stated on her ped but really off of his Ironhead...This was done because of the popularity of Bullyson dogs at the time, since they were so desired and hot everyone wanted them and I assume it was also probaly done to keep the recipe to their cake a secret too. Well this spawned me to research the ethics of this kind of decision and why an honest "Dogman" would ever consider this in the first place? So I then started looking for more rumors like this and have found some interesting things I am still unsure about? I don't want to publicly bash any breeders out there but some reputable Kennels I have talked to about this have mentioned certain dogs that have this rumor floating about their true peds. Some come from Mr. Garner some from Mr. Boudreaux but until it is fact I guess it is still a rumor and only these men and the others I have heard stories about could turn fiction to fact by telling their story and I doubt it is happening anytime soon. So I thought I might try to excite the subject and cause mass mayhem by bringing it up and lettin' it all out to see what we may have heard being passed along with the peace pipe?
So anyone heard anything odd or interesting about hanging dog peds lately or in the past?

[Rockstar]

I've always heard from some who knew Carver that ol' Mo would paper a dog pretty much any way you wanted it.

[The Watcher]

I think the point is: "Dam where the dogs come from, ARE THEY GAME?" We will never know the background of any dogs we have not seen bred!! If they are game they get bred, pups raised, looked at, culled.

[Rockstar]

Aint that the truth???

[The Watcher]

hmmmmmmmmmm, wonder where Midnight Cowboy comes from??????

Dang! if Honey comes from Ironhead not Bullyson, I BEEN CROSSING MY DOGS ALL WRONG!! I guess this is y we breed gamest to gamest, not pretty papers

[TIP]

I think the point is: "Dam where the dogs come from, ARE THEY GAME?" We will never know the background of any dogs we have not seen bred!! If they are game they get bred, pups raised, looked at, culled.

Very good point FIFTY could'nt agree more spot on mate

Dont belevie everything others say seeing is beleving

If you cant be honset to others alest be honest to yourself

[thablacksheep]

In the book by Frank Rocca (pardon me if I misspelled his name) "Fighting for Life" I believe he makes the statement that Maurice Carver told him while on his death bed, that CH. Honeybunch was not off Wallings Bullyson as stated on her ped but really off of his Ironhead

IF this is true then I guess that would explain honeybunches success as a high percentage producer being that this (statement of above) would make her a tight dibo bred dog. Not taking anything away from bullyson though

[Camo]

I hope this isn't true. It really chaps me to think my peds aren't correct. I just bought a midnight cowboy male. He's 4 and never been tested. I took him in the field the other day to run him with another hog dog and he wasn't interested in anything but fighting my other dog, of course that don't mean anything.He's been raised by an older woman and she got tired of feeding him. I thought I really had something. Sounds like the paper hangers need to be hung out and dried!!! I hope the rumor aint true.

[Scotsman]

Maurice never told this to Frank Rocca, he never told this to anyone. It is only a rumor basically. But if you look at Honeybunch and then at Ironhead she looks more like him. Also Maurice had a statue built of Ironhead and not Bullyson, interesting! The bekief is that alot of supposed Bullyson dogs where really off Ironhead, just at the time Bullyson was the man so people wanted stuff off him.
But what does it matter Carver was the founder of a lot of good lines.

If your dogs are good what does it matter! Just keep breeding into your stock and cull. The ones that first came over here did not have paperwork and they made what we have today. If the paper is close to what it is then I can deal with it but breeding cur just out of breeding dogs for gain of money wrong. I know some of my dogs are bred ways I dont know but so is everyone else's. You start with a line and do the work and make it your own and then the paperwork is your map to how you bred the dog. Cull and who cares how it was really bred as long as it does the job. Right? You see the abilities it has or dont have so breed it if its a bulldog into Like Bulldogs or Cross it to Bulldogs. Make them your own line and dont worry about the rest cause the dogs we are dealing with now will be dogs of history some day!

[misterdogman]

Maurice never told this to Frank Rocca, he never told this to anyone. It is only a rumor basically. But if you look at Honeybunch and then at Ironhead she looks more like him. Also Maurice had a statue built of Ironhead and not Bullyson, interesting! The bekief is that alot of supposed Bullyson dogs where really off Ironhead, just at the time Bullyson was the man so people wanted stuff off him.
But what does it matter Carver was the founder of a lot of good lines.

I guess to me and just me I have to agree to an extent about the statement "Damn the truth be honest to yourself" But when your trying to make good choices to mix with what your running wouldn't this cause some grief if you been looking to say take a good Honeybunch bitch and breed her to a good male bred some other different but similar way off Bullyson and all along you should have been looking for some tighter Dibo stuff or just more Honeybunch stuff...Hey to me honesty and ethics weigh in just as much as the ped whether it is a fancy one or not!!! You know you use it to make decisions, if you didn't we wouldn't need them at all and who our dogs came off would mean nothing just their performance...which maybe means something...so lets just throw all our peds out and go off our hearts and Proving/Culling program only... I will light the fire and throw mine in after someone else casts the first stone...wait.. wait.. wait.. I mean Ped...Any takers?

[thablacksheep]

so lets just throw all our peds out and go off our hearts and Proving/Culling program only... I will light the fire and throw mine in after someone else casts the first stone...wait.. wait.. wait.. I mean Ped...Any takers?

LOl, it would be a heck of a journey trien to consistently breed quality dogs but it would also challenge our philosophies and patience in doing so, wich could be a good thing.

[KURUPT]

If your dogs are good what does it matter! Just keep breeding into your stock and cull. The ones that first came over here did not have paperwork and they made what we have today. If the paper is close to what it is then I can deal with it but breeding cur just out of breeding dogs for gain of money wrong. I know some of my dogs are bred ways I dont know but so is everyone else's. You start with a line and do the work and make it your own and then the paperwork is your map to how you bred the dog. Cull and who cares how it was really bred as long as it does the job. Right? You see the abilities it has or dont have so breed it if its a bulldog into Like Bulldogs or Cross it to Bulldogs. Make them your own line and dont worry about the rest cause the dogs we are dealing with now will be dogs of history some day!

They had paper work on the dogs they brought over here. They kept their own records and that is a historicel fact. Breeding game to game works don't get me wrong but if you keep doing it with out using a family of dogs to do so what will be your end result? You will end up with a bunch of scatter bred dogs that cant produce a good dog to save their lives. If you speak to any of the old timers about breeding dogs or Honey they will tell you she was off Ironhead. Then they will tell you that when it comes to breeding dogs stick with a family cull hard and out cross when needed. Now back to Carver. He was a man that was about his money. If you wanted a dog bred a certain why he had it. If you had the money.

One of the games most active oldtimers told me. He would never get a dog from 3 breeders even tho they were close friends of his. These 3 breeders are.

1) M. Carver
2) B. Hall
3) T.Garner

His reason was that you never new how the dogs were bred. As he spoke more about these 3 men to me he spoke very highly of them as friends. You just couldnt trust them when it came to dogs.

All we have to remember is. If we didnt see the breeding done with our own two eyes we dont know if the dogs are really bred the way their papers say.

I heard similar from an oldtimer about what he though about BH and his Short time with Bullyson before carver aquired him.

edit: how would ya'll handle a situation of having a dog and being told the papers were hung?

That is true Rumble! I agree very much however redboy was not as paperwork had him but look at the line's it produced. I know the old dogs had papers but did people really get what they seen on paper? Your right about seeing the breeding and needing to know the path they took but lets be honest. A man with a good line does not tell all and surely not sell his best to the general public. I say cull and be happy if you have a good dog. Only you can enjoy your dogs as they are and your standards set you apart from the rest. I know people that hang papers and I cant stop them and I will not step on their toes but it will bite them later. As for the big breeders they can breed and hang if they want but I deal with the people that got the real blood when it was prime and not trust frozen sperm! cause I might end up with some Jerry Garcia dogs! Which in turn may be The Greatfulldead dogs.

[TabDogs]

personally i dont think carver told anyone that... But who knows...When JC & IJ went to pick up some dogs from carver, he had left them a note on the top of a crate that said " This bitch just might make a good one, but since old Bullyson quit I cant sell her" Honeybunch was a gift to JC & IJ...At the time bullyson dogs wernt all that popular since the hunt with him and his son.Nobody wanted a dog off bullyson..I was once told this by a good dogman that knew Mr Carver well.." Why would he lie about her breeding? " He could of just papered her out of different dog and sold her.." He gave her away cause he couldnt sell her due to Bullyson quiting..All I know is she is one hell of a bitch and producer..Just like their were rumors that she quit in a roll in LA...there are people in these dogs that hang papers..old and new timers ..you better beleive it...LOL there are tons of rumors out there in the dog game..Which ones are true?? Well the only ones who know the truth are the ones who witnessed the events...

here's the truth on bullyson from the old man himself...
I tried to ignore the silly ramblings of the Dallas Guru, (Don Mayfield), about Bullyson, but since he invited me to, I will tell the whole story about Bullyson's last match.
Maurice Carver talked Red Wallings into buying Bullyson with the agreement that Carver would breed him an collect all stud fees, and in return would condition him for match. Bullyson was "open to match" and I never once heard that Don wanted to match into Bullyson. Finally Rick H. matched into him. Maurice heard that Leo Kinard might help condition Benny Bob. Maurice gave Leo a dog called Buck (ELI JR. X BRENDY) that he bought from me, not to help them. Leo said he wasnt in on it but he took BUCK away, for breeding purposes. All through Bullysons conditioning/keep, Maurice would call me and ask if I though one more breeding him would hurt him. He even bred him the day before the match. A week before the show, maurice bought Bullyson to the hospital that I worked at, as a labratory technition, and I did a blood count on him. His hematocrit was 33% and him lips had stitches holding them ti his gums where he had chewed out of a chain link fence. Red Walling said he wasnt going to pay forfit as I suggested and would take him to the match in an ambulance if he had to.
Well, the match lasted 47mins. and Benny Bob got deep into Bullysons flank and took him back end out. Carver gave up the match as Bullyson could not even stand up much less try to get over the wall as Don said! I did not step in and pick him up as he was not my dog to pick up. He most definately did not quit. Maurice Carver told me that the vet, that they took Bullyson to, did an autopsy on Bullyson and said that his kidneys were all torn lose inside.
Well, that is the real truth about Bullyson and YES!, my dogs pedigrees are full of Bullyson, ELI JR. and Brendy and I'm proud of it! GC

[KURUPT]

That is true Rumble! I agree very much however redboy was not as paperwork had him but look at the line's it produced. I know the old dogs had papers but did people really get what they seen on paper? Your right about seeing the breeding and needing to know the path they took but lets be honest. A man with a good line does not tell all and surely not sell his best to the general public. I say cull and be happy if you have a good dog. Only you can enjoy your dogs as they are and your standards set you apart from the rest. I know people that hang papers and I cant stop them and I will not step on their toes but it will bite them later. As for the big breeders they can breed and hang if they want but I deal with the people that got the real blood when it was prime and not trust frozen sperm! cause I might end up with some Jerry Garcia dogs! Which in turn may be The Greatfulldead dogs.

Your right, but you have to remember after Redboy was bred to Cleo he was mainly bred to his daughters or offspring of his daughters and son's. They used him as a base for a line of dogs and stayed in the family of dogs off him. They bred and culled bred and culled in that family of dogs. Thats why the line is so game today.

Here's one for you guys Finley's CH. Bo isnt bred the way his paper says either. So that makes Honeybunch's and Bo's breeding's fake. Yet they produced very well when bred together? Even their son jeep produced good. Even from his grave..lol...They say most of the dogs we think are off jeep were really of CH. Charlie. Jeeps brother..If you think about it Jeep was a cash cow back then. His death would of really hurt the pocket book of those in his camp. It is said that Jeep died after his match with Homer.

My point is both CH.Bo and CH.Honeybunch were from the same family of dogs. Which would of made CH.Jeep and CH.Charlie pure represenatives of this family. So they crossed this blood and then brought it back into the same famliy.

One more thing Reboy was only a 1xW He went into a Female for this Win and he wasnt a (ROM) dog either. He didnt produce that many winners and the reason for that was most of his offspring were being used for breedings to make a new line of dogs.

[misterdogman]

personally i dont think carver told anyone that... But who knows...When JC & IJ went to pick up some dogs from carver, he had left them a note on the top of a crate that said " This bitch just might make a good one, but since old Bullyson quit I cant sell her" Honeybunch was a gift to JC & IJ...At the time bullyson dogs wernt all that popular since the hunt with him and his son.Nobody wanted a dog off bullyson..I was once told this by a good dogman that knew Mr Carver well.." Why would he lie about her breeding? " He could of just papered her out of different dog and sold her.." He gave her away cause he couldnt sell her due to Bullyson quiting..All I know is she is one hell of a bitch and producer..Just like their were rumors that she quit in a roll in LA...there are people in these dogs that hang papers..old and new timers ..you better beleive it...LOL there are tons of rumors out there in the dog game..Which ones are true?? Well the only ones who know the truth are the ones who witnessed the events...

Hey im sure you don't know this but I am the guy who recently called you and purchased Rahja off your site with my business partner...Hows it going?...Anyhow what you state is very interesting concerning the same subject but totally different info...where is this written do you know or were you only told first hand? I got my info from Mr Roccas book and only base my comments off this...I never heard at the time Bullyson dogs were unpopular I heard the opposite in the book...unless you mean after he quit or something...but why wouldn't Carver just have recanted her breeding if she was that good and say she was indeed off Ironhead if she really was instead of leaving it that she was off a quitter like you say...if it is true this might be a good insight to where she really came from...I dont know??? but like I said before... only those men really do and I doubt were getting an expose soon...Good points and very interesting post...It is real funny and strangely interesting that the exact opposite story is going around about the same dog!!!

[Rockstar]

No pedigree is 100% correct, but there is no sense dwelling on such things. All we can do is the best we can do with what the paper tells us. A successful breeding program isn't going to fall apart because the breeder finds out that a certain dog six or eight generations back in the ped was bred differently than what the papers say. Regardless of who did what 20 or 30 or 50 years ago, this breed has continued to get better, and will be even better in the future in spite of whoever is hanging papers today. There will always be those around with enough integrity to push things forward.