Whats everyones personal feeling on dogs of today?

[14rock]

After researching a little bit on diffrent keeps used by diffrent dogmen, and knowing our dogs of today are in a diffrent class than dogs of the past, I would like to hear everyones inputs on why our dogs are better....Or if you think they are not, I'd also like to hear why you feel that way.

A number of things can be the factor of why (I feel) dogs are continually evolving and getting better year after year. The original reason I began thinking about this was reading some dogmens opinions on keeps. Do you believe our dogs are better simply because we have a better sense of nutrition understanding and therefore can listen to our dogs needs better than say someone working in the early 1920's.

Another factor that will make dogs better is selective breeding, do you feel our dogs are where they are today ONLY because of selective breeding and natural evolution and culling?

Or is it we only believe our dogs are better because this is the time we live in....maybe dogs being produced today arent as good as the ones of the past, do we just feel they are because this is what we grew up seeing? In short, do you believe that dogs being produced from the old champions can never live up to their ancestors, but we never seen them go side by side so we wishfully assume our dogs must be better?

I'm curious as to what everyones personal opinion on this matter is. I feel that all of these are logical explanations for why our dogs are how they are. I feel dogs being bred with a goal in mind can only get better if we continue to cull. Along with that, we now know what it takes for a bulldog to perform at optimum performance, so this also makes the dogs better. However, I also believe that there were dogs of the past our dogs have not yet lived up to.....and that we merely think our dogs compare because this is all we have ever seen. Along with that though, I feel in time all the greats will be surpassed, it is a given to me with natural selection and optimum nutrition dogs, have to continue to evolve until they reach their 100 percent peak (which is still hundreds of years away). This is not to say the greats are any less great, because they were absolutely untouchable for their time, and nothing anyone says can take away from the fact they were as good as the time would allow.

Mhmmm...that gets me thinking again, how great would these legends be if they were born in a time where we can understand them better, work with thier basic needs better, and work them more thoroughly. Maybe the time when our dogs reach their peaks is not so far away.......what is everyones opinion on this.

Thought this would be an intresting thing to hear from diffrent people, see how every diffrent person perceives our dogs of today, and their reasoning of why. However, please do not be too specific, make sure there is not mention of illegal activities.;)

[WWII]

I dunno. I think of it like football players of today and of the past. Sure, Jim Brown and Johnny Unitas were great players, but how would they do against the defenses of today? There is so much more size, speed, and strength. In their prime, they were great for their decade, but if they were to bring that prime status against say, Ray Lewis or Champ Bailey today, I'd think they'd just get shut down. Same way with dogs. We're looking for stronger, smarter dogs today that have evolved from culling in the past. And in the next 70 years, those future dogs will be better than ours.

[mntman2003]

i cant agree...football players havent evolved at all not a bit.training methods,food and drugs have. ex Arnold vs. Ronnie Coleman. it takes 100000 to see much of a change.They culled dogs harder than if anything and we havent changed tihier keeps much.

[mntman2003]

http://ironage.us/virtual/virtual6.html check out my ex.

[WWII]

Ronnie is gonna win this year, again.:D I know what you're saying though.

edit: I've seen that pic so many times. You really can't compare them in that one. The ratios are way off.

[mntman2003]

cool im not argueing i just think to much lol!

[mntman2003]

now what if arnold were 30 today!!! http://ironage.us/articles/uberarnold.html
you gotta see this!

[B]

A good breeder ends up with better than he/she started or he/she shouldn't be breeding in the first place! The obvious answer is yes but that is being a bit idealistic. Training, nutrition, and technology has take many true APBT gamedog breeders to the next level. Dogs have evolved in the right hands but just as many are taking leaps backwards in the wrong hands. Today we have far more problems with these dogs than the doggers of previous. We deal with far too many mutts, curs, and deformed dogs to possibly consider ourselves superior to the older doggers. They knew what bulldogs were about and they kept their standards in high regard. Today we have greed, ignorance, and fad designs leading the way for the next generation. The gamedog breeders of the past that worked so hard to make this breed what it is today would look at most modern day doggers with their head hung low. Things need to change or this breed (the true APBT gamedog) will be extinct. Overall the dogs coming from the right places might be better but their keepers probably aren't.

B

PS. Of course Ronnie will win.... he's a FREAK!

[WWII]

Well, I didn't know bodybuilding and dogs were so comparable. It's like the dogs of the past were slimmer and more aesthetic, and not overdone so much. Much like Arnold, Franco, Serge, etc. And now look at what people are calling pit bulls with the super huge wide chests and squatty body. They are kind of like Ronnie and Ruhl now. Just freaks. Huge people with huge guts, but are still being called bodybuilders. The one part of the body that you want smaller, and they grow it. But then there are those that are keeping the true standard of bodybuilding like Chris Cormier, Dexter, Darrem Charles. WHOA!

Ronnie's gut is in check this year. Have you seen the pics of him 7 weeks out? If he gets beat, I'm yelling conspiracy. (It'll be because he dropped that Weider contract and signed with BSN.)

EDIT: That pic is crazy. He looks like he has Tom Platz's legs. Wonder what Tom's legs would look like at him being 40lbs heavier???

[mntman2003]

well sounds like we aare kinda talkin genetics.....our dogs havent changed at all in 100 yrs our culling is softer from laws if anything.and arnold would win if he had todays pharmocolgy and diet training methods. lol jmo

[WWII]

But who's to say his gut wouldn't grow like Kovak's did from HG?

I think we might've highjacked this thread...sorry Rock.

[14rock]

But who's to say his gut wouldn't grow like Kovak's did from HG?

I think we might've highjacked this thread...sorry Rock.
LOL no prob. didnt seem anyone was really too intrested in it anyways....... In a way, it kind of relates though, both have changed for whatever reasons and which you pick as best is your opinion. Personally, I think those links posted look like mutants, just reminds me of looking at stacked amstaffs in a ring for some reason......looks impressive, even overdone, but you've got to ask yourself? Why? I used to be very serious about lifting and would like to have the time to get back into it.....just dont see why people would lift merely for size and looks when they will never use their strength for anything other than flexing with baby oil on,lol.

[WWII]

Oh geeze...I'm a human with an amstaff attitude. I'm a serious bodybuilder and lift for mass, not strength. Strength is just a by product for me. And I do pose......with oil.....and look good for the ladies.;)

Even though I think Ronnie is a true freak, I like Dexter's figure a lot more. I'd rather have his build compared to Ron's.

[mntman2003]

flex was best!but i agree with bnd.dogs may of been better overall cause the old timers culled more before 76....but through the selective process some dogs could be real good.
but this thread was fun anyway....Dex kicks ass!!! He got robbed in the pose down at the end the said ronnie beat dex in the ab and thigh shot lmfao!!!! it is fixed.

[WWII]

Maybe thigh shot, but no one can compare to Dex in abs and symmetry. Just wondering, how did the old timers cull the dogs? Just neuter them and gave them away? Or did they do what I think they did?

[B]

They fertilized with them...

B

[Saiyagin]

I feel that some of the dogs today are somewhat better then the most dogs of the past, heres my two words that sum it up......EVOLUTION AND SCIENCE.

[WWII]

They fertilized with them...

B
Kinda what I figured. I think I'd rather just have them fixed and given to family and friends. But I dunno. I've never raised a yard before.

[B]

Kinda what I figured. I think I'd rather just have them fixed and given to family and friends. But I dunno. I've never raised a yard before.That can work for some dogs but just because a dog is a cur doesn't mean that it isn't dog aggressive. The dogs need to be placed in homes that are capable of dealing with a gamebred dog (cur or not). Some work well in households with other dogs but a lot of them are still very dog aggressive. They need to be in single animal homes with a responsible owner that is aware of their capabilities. While the animals should be spayed/neutered they are often left intact and some irresponsible people eventually decide to breed them to make some money. In many ways the old timers did things the best way for the dogs and the breed... quick, painless, and not reproducing more unwanted dogs that don't fit the gamedog APBT standard.

Best Regards,

B

[mntman2003]

evolution = alot more than 100 yrs it takes about 100000 yrs to notice any change.

[Saiyagin]

Alot of people think that evolution takes hundreds of thosands of years wrong evolution happens every day when scientist find new species of insect, fish ,or animals thats evolution it might only be subtle changes like color, size ,weight etc. For example scientist have found that humans of today on the average are taller then humans of the past that is a small change but still evolving. Not like how we see on TV where we humans evolve into giant flying brains hahahaha lol now that would take 1000000000years.

[mntman2003]

no disrespect but yes we are bigger but..could it be due to nutrition.Sorry man I know you from else were and i know your a smart dude but i cant agree on evo. we are bigger today cause we ate shitty in the past and didnt get enough vaccines..look at first gen. immagrantes then the second they are bigger its not evo. its just bieng healthier. peace

[Saiyagin]

Ok let me see if I can explain it better the term evolution means development,progress,growth,rise;natural selection. Evolution is caused by influences around us wether its for the better and we grow and adapt or its for the worse where we become extinct. What you just described as just being healthier because we ate shitty in the past and didnt get enough vaccines is basically evolution we adapt and grow stronger taller bigger etc. Same with the dogs nowdays tend to have more bigger dogs then in the past. Let me give you a fictional example lets say all of a sudden the earths gravity doubled and every living thing on earth would have two scenerios you will either have to adapt and evolve to handle this new gravity or you would just perish and die. The key to evolution is adaptation the failure is you become extinct. Same with game dogs evolve through natuaral selection if you game you live if you not game you get culled or become extinct lol no worries mntman2003 evolution is a big and wide open contraversial topic so big that by the time we find the real true answers to this question we would have evolved 1000000 years hopefully lol.

[Crash97]

evolution = alot more than 100 yrs it takes about 100000 yrs to notice any change.What you're talking about is natural evolution. Breeding evolution is much quicker, because it's controlled and guided. A breeder purposely takes and mates two animals that have the desired qualities, therefore greatly speeding the process up. Not to mention, now a days breeding is no longer restricted much by goegraphy. An animal can be shipped to another part of the country, even another country to be bred. This greatly increases the potential for positive evolution.

Natural evolution is two animals mating basically at random and the only selection being natural, whether they survived long enough. Geography also plays a part in this, isolating potential breeding partners from each other.

[ochi]

survival of the fittest.. the strong will survive and the weak shall perish..

[mntman2003]

i agree with you on that but when i think of evolution i think of things on a greater scale.but yes i see your point as far as that goes with the dogs.but evolution is the change over a entire population and is more permanent.we cant reverse evolution but we can loose what we gain through selective breeding......but yes I agree with the idea you are saying peace!

[B]

What you're talking about is natural evolution. Breeding evolution is much quicker, because it's controlled and guided. A breeder purposely takes and mates two animals that have the desired qualities, therefore greatly speeding the process up. Not to mention, now a days breeding is no longer restricted much by goegraphy. An animal can be shipped to another part of the country, even another country to be bred. This greatly increases the potential for positive evolution.

Natural evolution is two animals mating basically at random and the only selection being natural, whether they survived long enough. Geography also plays a part in this, isolating potential breeding partners from each other.
Good points! Not only can dogs be shipped but chilled seman can be shipped and even collected for storage and later use long after a dog has passed away extending production for another generation.

Regards,

B

[SouthernDixie]

It is not the survival of the fittest, it is the survival of those who are the most adapted to their environment. And breeding-wise, it is a form of evolution, but the form that exists as selective breeding in which we breed for certain traits. Everything has evolved through natural selection in which nature "selects" the best adapted for living. That's why things change. Now I'm not a fan of evolution, I'd like to think that God created every living creature - but whose to say that He didn't place things on earth with intentions of evolution? It's a touchy topic but evolution exists no matter what the beliefs.

[jawbones]

After researching a little bit on diffrent keeps used by diffrent dogmen, and knowing our dogs of today are in a diffrent class than dogs of the past, I would like to hear everyones inputs on why our dogs are better....Or if you think they are not, I'd also like to hear why you feel that way.

A number of things can be the factor of why (I feel) dogs are continually evolving and getting better year after year. The original reason I began thinking about this was reading some dogmens opinions on keeps. Do you believe our dogs are better simply because we have a better sense of nutrition understanding and therefore can listen to our dogs needs better than say someone working in the early 1920's.

Another factor that will make dogs better is selective breeding, do you feel our dogs are where they are today ONLY because of selective breeding and natural evolution and culling?

Or is it we only believe our dogs are better because this is the time we live in....maybe dogs being produced today arent as good as the ones of the past, do we just feel they are because this is what we grew up seeing? In short, do you believe that dogs being produced from the old champions can never live up to their ancestors, but we never seen them go side by side so we wishfully assume our dogs must be better?

I'm curious as to what everyones personal opinion on this matter is. I feel that all of these are logical explanations for why our dogs are how they are. I feel dogs being bred with a goal in mind can only get better if we continue to cull. Along with that, we now know what it takes for a bulldog to perform at optimum performance, so this also makes the dogs better. However, I also believe that there were dogs of the past our dogs have not yet lived up to.....and that we merely think our dogs compare because this is all we have ever seen. Along with that though, I feel in time all the greats will be surpassed, it is a given to me with natural selection and optimum nutrition dogs, have to continue to evolve until they reach their 100 percent peak (which is still hundreds of years away). This is not to say the greats are any less great, because they were absolutely untouchable for their time, and nothing anyone says can take away from the fact they were as good as the time would allow.

Mhmmm...that gets me thinking again, how great would these legends be if they were born in a time where we can understand them better, work with thier basic needs better, and work them more thoroughly. Maybe the time when our dogs reach their peaks is not so far away.......what is everyones opinion on this.

Thought this would be an intresting thing to hear from diffrent people, see how every diffrent person perceives our dogs of today, and their reasoning of why. However, please do not be too specific, make sure there is not mention of illegal activities.;)

These dogs can't keep getting better, only we can become better owners, more disciplined, more knowledgeable. Their original intention was to work. Generation after generation working the bluffs, holes, hogs, baiting, etc. These are not dogs meant to be bred for "bling bling" to ride around in caddilacs stroking our egos. Our breed is a working breed, a loyal family pet, a farm dog, a fighting dog, a dog that can adapt to just about anything. How do I compare these guys to the dogs of yester year? They are still the great bulldog they have always been, only technology has changed. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You can't better something so close to perfection, only learn to be a better care taker. :)

[Wayne]

I believe the game dogs of today are better.I asked the Mtn Man the question do you think the game dogs are better today or years ago.He agreed there are so many more game dog breeders with more access to one another.Years ago there were only a hand full of dog men.

[jawbones]

no disrespect but yes we are bigger but..could it be due to nutrition.Sorry man I know you from else were and i know your a smart dude but i cant agree on evo. we are bigger today cause we ate shitty in the past and didnt get enough vaccines..look at first gen. immagrantes then the second they are bigger its not evo. its just bieng healthier. peace


**EDIT** I had a brain fart.....DUH!

[whiteyransom]

These dogs can't keep getting better, only we can become better owners, more disciplined, more knowledgeable. Their original intention was to work. Generation after generation working the bluffs, holes, hogs, baiting, etc. These are not dogs meant to be bred for "bling bling" to ride around in caddilacs stroking our egos. Our breed is a working breed, a loyal family pet, a farm dog, a fighting dog, a dog that can adapt to just about anything. How do I compare these guys to the dogs of yester year? They are still the great bulldog they have always been, only technology has changed. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You can't better something so close to perfection, only learn to be a better care taker. :)

__________________
nicely put jawbones. although, the one thing about today is that people have access to a bigger variety of dogs from all over. meaning, if your dogs had a trait you wanted to improve, you could have a wider vasriety of dogs/breeders to look at to gain that to gain that particular trait. where in the past, it seems they had to breed with what was readily availible, and do serious culling to get what they wanted. i'm not extremely knowledgeable on all the dogs/breeders of the past, but this is what i gathered but it's just my thoughts, correct me if i'm wrong!

[mike333]

I agree.There are certain elements of a dog you can better in time but, I think most of it is like Jawbones posted,we are better caretakers of our dogs & probally in the future dog owners then will be better than what we are now.It all really revolves around technology & advances in medicines ect...JMO.One thing that will never change no matter how much technology changes or how many medical breakthroughs are made I will always love my dogs & no technology or medicine can replace good old fashioned affection between owner & dog.