Paper Hanging!

[misterdogman]

In the book by Frank Rocca (pardon me if I misspelled his name) "Fighting for Life" I believe he makes the statement that Maurice Carver told him while on his death bed, that CH. Honeybunch was not off Wallings Bullyson as stated on her ped but really off of his Ironhead...This was done because of the popularity of Bullyson dogs at the time, since they were so desired and hot everyone wanted them and I assume it was also probaly done to keep the recipe to their cake a secret too. Well this spawned me to research the ethics of this kind of decision and why an honest "Dogman" would ever consider this in the first place? So I then started looking for more rumors like this and have found some interesting things I am still unsure about? I don't want to publicly bash any breeders out there but some reputable Kennels I have talked to about this have mentioned certain dogs that have this rumor floating about their true peds. Some come from Mr. Garner some from Mr. Boudreaux but until it is fact I guess it is still a rumor and only these men and the others I have heard stories about could turn fiction to fact by telling their story and I doubt it is happening anytime soon. So I thought I might try to excite the subject and cause mass mayhem by bringing it up and lettin' it all out to see what we may have heard being passed along with the peace pipe?
So anyone heard anything odd or interesting about hanging dog peds lately or in the past?

[Rockstar]

I've always heard from some who knew Carver that ol' Mo would paper a dog pretty much any way you wanted it.:(

[The Watcher]

I think the point is: "Dam where the dogs come from, ARE THEY GAME?" We will never know the background of any dogs we have not seen bred!! If they are game they get bred, pups raised, looked at, culled.

[Rockstar]

Aint that the truth???

[The Watcher]

hmmmmmmmmmm, wonder where Midnight Cowboy comes from??????

Dang! if Honey comes from Ironhead not Bullyson, I BEEN CROSSING MY DOGS ALL WRONG!! I guess this is y we breed gamest to gamest, not pretty papers

[TIP]

I think the point is: "Dam where the dogs come from, ARE THEY GAME?" We will never know the background of any dogs we have not seen bred!! If they are game they get bred, pups raised, looked at, culled.
Very good point FIFTY could'nt agree more spot on mate

Dont belevie everything others say seeing is beleving

If you cant be honset to others alest be honest to yourself

[thablacksheep]

In the book by Frank Rocca (pardon me if I misspelled his name) "Fighting for Life" I believe he makes the statement that Maurice Carver told him while on his death bed, that CH. Honeybunch was not off Wallings Bullyson as stated on her ped but really off of his Ironhead

IF this is true then I guess that would explain honeybunches success as a high percentage producer being that this (statement of above) would make her a tight dibo bred dog. Not taking anything away from bullyson though

[Camo]

I hope this isn't true. It really chaps me to think my peds aren't correct. I just bought a midnight cowboy male. He's 4 and never been tested. I took him in the field the other day to run him with another hog dog and he wasn't interested in anything but fighting my other dog, of course that don't mean anything.He's been raised by an older woman and she got tired of feeding him. I thought I really had something. Sounds like the paper hangers need to be hung out and dried!!! I hope the rumor aint true.

[Scotsman]

Maurice never told this to Frank Rocca, he never told this to anyone. It is only a rumor basically. But if you look at Honeybunch and then at Ironhead she looks more like him. Also Maurice had a statue built of Ironhead and not Bullyson, interesting! The bekief is that alot of supposed Bullyson dogs where really off Ironhead, just at the time Bullyson was the man so people wanted stuff off him.
But what does it matter Carver was the founder of a lot of good lines.

[SLICK WILLIE]

If your dogs are good what does it matter! Just keep breeding into your stock and cull. The ones that first came over here did not have paperwork and they made what we have today. If the paper is close to what it is then I can deal with it but breeding cur just out of breeding dogs for gain of money wrong. I know some of my dogs are bred ways I dont know but so is everyone else's. You start with a line and do the work and make it your own and then the paperwork is your map to how you bred the dog. Cull and who cares how it was really bred as long as it does the job. Right? You see the abilities it has or dont have so breed it if its a bulldog into Like Bulldogs or Cross it to Bulldogs. Make them your own line and dont worry about the rest cause the dogs we are dealing with now will be dogs of history some day!

[misterdogman]

Maurice never told this to Frank Rocca, he never told this to anyone. It is only a rumor basically. But if you look at Honeybunch and then at Ironhead she looks more like him. Also Maurice had a statue built of Ironhead and not Bullyson, interesting! The bekief is that alot of supposed Bullyson dogs where really off Ironhead, just at the time Bullyson was the man so people wanted stuff off him.
But what does it matter Carver was the founder of a lot of good lines.I guess to me and just me I have to agree to an extent about the statement "Damn the truth be honest to yourself" But when your trying to make good choices to mix with what your running wouldn't this cause some grief if you been looking to say take a good Honeybunch bitch and breed her to a good male bred some other different but similar way off Bullyson and all along you should have been looking for some tighter Dibo stuff or just more Honeybunch stuff...Hey to me honesty and ethics weigh in just as much as the ped whether it is a fancy one or not!!! You know you use it to make decisions, if you didn't we wouldn't need them at all and who our dogs came off would mean nothing just their performance...which maybe means something...so lets just throw all our peds out and go off our hearts and Proving/Culling program only... I will light the fire and throw mine in after someone else casts the first stone...wait.. wait.. wait.. I mean Ped...Any takers?

[thablacksheep]

so lets just throw all our peds out and go off our hearts and Proving/Culling program only... I will light the fire and throw mine in after someone else casts the first stone...wait.. wait.. wait.. I mean Ped...Any takers?LOl, it would be a heck of a journey trien to consistently breed quality dogs but it would also challenge our philosophies and patience in doing so, wich could be a good thing.

[KURUPT]

If your dogs are good what does it matter! Just keep breeding into your stock and cull. The ones that first came over here did not have paperwork and they made what we have today. If the paper is close to what it is then I can deal with it but breeding cur just out of breeding dogs for gain of money wrong. I know some of my dogs are bred ways I dont know but so is everyone else's. You start with a line and do the work and make it your own and then the paperwork is your map to how you bred the dog. Cull and who cares how it was really bred as long as it does the job. Right? You see the abilities it has or dont have so breed it if its a bulldog into Like Bulldogs or Cross it to Bulldogs. Make them your own line and dont worry about the rest cause the dogs we are dealing with now will be dogs of history some day!They had paper work on the dogs they brought over here. They kept their own records and that is a historicel fact. Breeding game to game works don't get me wrong but if you keep doing it with out using a family of dogs to do so what will be your end result? You will end up with a bunch of scatter bred dogs that cant produce a good dog to save their lives. If you speak to any of the old timers about breeding dogs or Honey they will tell you she was off Ironhead. Then they will tell you that when it comes to breeding dogs stick with a family cull hard and out cross when needed. Now back to Carver. He was a man that was about his money. If you wanted a dog bred a certain why he had it. If you had the money.

One of the games most active oldtimers told me. He would never get a dog from 3 breeders even tho they were close friends of his. These 3 breeders are.

1) M. Carver
2) B. Hall
3) T.Garner

His reason was that you never new how the dogs were bred. As he spoke more about these 3 men to me he spoke very highly of them as friends. You just couldnt trust them when it came to dogs.

All we have to remember is. If we didnt see the breeding done with our own two eyes we dont know if the dogs are really bred the way their papers say.

[440rider]

I heard similar from an oldtimer about what he though about BH and his Short time with Bullyson before carver aquired him.

edit: how would ya'll handle a situation of having a dog and being told the papers were hung?

[SLICK WILLIE]

That is true Rumble! I agree very much however redboy was not as paperwork had him but look at the line's it produced. I know the old dogs had papers but did people really get what they seen on paper? Your right about seeing the breeding and needing to know the path they took but lets be honest. A man with a good line does not tell all and surely not sell his best to the general public. I say cull and be happy if you have a good dog. Only you can enjoy your dogs as they are and your standards set you apart from the rest. I know people that hang papers and I cant stop them and I will not step on their toes but it will bite them later. As for the big breeders they can breed and hang if they want but I deal with the people that got the real blood when it was prime and not trust frozen sperm! cause I might end up with some Jerry Garcia dogs! Which in turn may be The Greatfulldead dogs.

[TabDogs]

personally i dont think carver told anyone that... But who knows...When JC & IJ went to pick up some dogs from carver, he had left them a note on the top of a crate that said " This bitch just might make a good one, but since old Bullyson quit I cant sell her" Honeybunch was a gift to JC & IJ...At the time bullyson dogs wernt all that popular since the hunt with him and his son.Nobody wanted a dog off bullyson..I was once told this by a good dogman that knew Mr Carver well.." Why would he lie about her breeding? " He could of just papered her out of different dog and sold her.." He gave her away cause he couldnt sell her due to Bullyson quiting..All I know is she is one hell of a bitch and producer..Just like their were rumors that she quit in a roll in LA...there are people in these dogs that hang papers..old and new timers ..you better beleive it...LOL there are tons of rumors out there in the dog game..Which ones are true?? Well the only ones who know the truth are the ones who witnessed the events...

[440rider]

here's the truth on bullyson from the old man himself...
I tried to ignore the silly ramblings of the Dallas Guru, (Don Mayfield), about Bullyson, but since he invited me to, I will tell the whole story about Bullyson's last match.
Maurice Carver talked Red Wallings into buying Bullyson with the agreement that Carver would breed him an collect all stud fees, and in return would condition him for match. Bullyson was "open to match" and I never once heard that Don wanted to match into Bullyson. Finally Rick H. matched into him. Maurice heard that Leo Kinard might help condition Benny Bob. Maurice gave Leo a dog called Buck (ELI JR. X BRENDY) that he bought from me, not to help them. Leo said he wasnt in on it but he took BUCK away, for breeding purposes. All through Bullysons conditioning/keep, Maurice would call me and ask if I though one more breeding him would hurt him. He even bred him the day before the match. A week before the show, maurice bought Bullyson to the hospital that I worked at, as a labratory technition, and I did a blood count on him. His hematocrit was 33% and him lips had stitches holding them ti his gums where he had chewed out of a chain link fence. Red Walling said he wasnt going to pay forfit as I suggested and would take him to the match in an ambulance if he had to.
Well, the match lasted 47mins. and Benny Bob got deep into Bullysons flank and took him back end out. Carver gave up the match as Bullyson could not even stand up much less try to get over the wall as Don said! I did not step in and pick him up as he was not my dog to pick up. He most definately did not quit. Maurice Carver told me that the vet, that they took Bullyson to, did an autopsy on Bullyson and said that his kidneys were all torn lose inside.
Well, that is the real truth about Bullyson and YES!, my dogs pedigrees are full of Bullyson, ELI JR. and Brendy and I'm proud of it! GC

[KURUPT]

That is true Rumble! I agree very much however redboy was not as paperwork had him but look at the line's it produced. I know the old dogs had papers but did people really get what they seen on paper? Your right about seeing the breeding and needing to know the path they took but lets be honest. A man with a good line does not tell all and surely not sell his best to the general public. I say cull and be happy if you have a good dog. Only you can enjoy your dogs as they are and your standards set you apart from the rest. I know people that hang papers and I cant stop them and I will not step on their toes but it will bite them later. As for the big breeders they can breed and hang if they want but I deal with the people that got the real blood when it was prime and not trust frozen sperm! cause I might end up with some Jerry Garcia dogs! Which in turn may be The Greatfulldead dogs.Your right, but you have to remember after Redboy was bred to Cleo he was mainly bred to his daughters or offspring of his daughters and son's. They used him as a base for a line of dogs and stayed in the family of dogs off him. They bred and culled bred and culled in that family of dogs. Thats why the line is so game today.

Here's one for you guys Finley's CH. Bo isnt bred the way his paper says either. So that makes Honeybunch's and Bo's breeding's fake. Yet they produced very well when bred together? Even their son jeep produced good. Even from his grave..lol...They say most of the dogs we think are off jeep were really of CH. Charlie. Jeeps brother..If you think about it Jeep was a cash cow back then. His death would of really hurt the pocket book of those in his camp. It is said that Jeep died after his match with Homer.

My point is both CH.Bo and CH.Honeybunch were from the same family of dogs. Which would of made CH.Jeep and CH.Charlie pure represenatives of this family. So they crossed this blood and then brought it back into the same famliy.

One more thing Reboy was only a 1xW He went into a Female for this Win and he wasnt a (ROM) dog either. He didnt produce that many winners and the reason for that was most of his offspring were being used for breedings to make a new line of dogs.

[misterdogman]

personally i dont think carver told anyone that... But who knows...When JC & IJ went to pick up some dogs from carver, he had left them a note on the top of a crate that said " This bitch just might make a good one, but since old Bullyson quit I cant sell her" Honeybunch was a gift to JC & IJ...At the time bullyson dogs wernt all that popular since the hunt with him and his son.Nobody wanted a dog off bullyson..I was once told this by a good dogman that knew Mr Carver well.." Why would he lie about her breeding? " He could of just papered her out of different dog and sold her.." He gave her away cause he couldnt sell her due to Bullyson quiting..All I know is she is one hell of a bitch and producer..Just like their were rumors that she quit in a roll in LA...there are people in these dogs that hang papers..old and new timers ..you better beleive it...LOL there are tons of rumors out there in the dog game..Which ones are true?? Well the only ones who know the truth are the ones who witnessed the events...Hey im sure you don't know this but I am the guy who recently called you and purchased Rahja off your site with my business partner...Hows it going?...Anyhow what you state is very interesting concerning the same subject but totally different info...where is this written do you know or were you only told first hand? I got my info from Mr Roccas book and only base my comments off this...I never heard at the time Bullyson dogs were unpopular I heard the opposite in the book...unless you mean after he quit or something...but why wouldn't Carver just have recanted her breeding if she was that good and say she was indeed off Ironhead if she really was instead of leaving it that she was off a quitter like you say...if it is true this might be a good insight to where she really came from...I dont know??? but like I said before... only those men really do and I doubt were getting an expose soon...Good points and very interesting post...It is real funny and strangely interesting that the exact opposite story is going around about the same dog!!!

[Rockstar]

No pedigree is 100% correct, but there is no sense dwelling on such things. All we can do is the best we can do with what the paper tells us. A successful breeding program isn't going to fall apart because the breeder finds out that a certain dog six or eight generations back in the ped was bred differently than what the papers say. Regardless of who did what 20 or 30 or 50 years ago, this breed has continued to get better, and will be even better in the future in spite of whoever is hanging papers today. There will always be those around with enough integrity to push things forward.

[misterdogman]

No pedigree is 100% correct, but there is no sense dwelling on such things. All we can do is the best we can do with what the paper tells us. A successful breeding program isn't going to fall apart because the breeder finds out that a certain dog six or eight generations back in the ped was bred differently than what the papers say. Regardless of who did what 20 or 30 or 50 years ago, this breed has continued to get better, and will be even better in the future in spite of whoever is hanging papers today. There will always be those around with enough integrity to push things forward.Strangely I agree with you more than I disagree, I guess if we can't control the past we must do our best to control the future with the dogs we have now and make sure only people of integrity get them for the next generation...If we keep agreeing like this we might start growing on each other...what a change of events...lol...JK

[SLICK WILLIE]

Nice bit of info 440 just made me feel a bit better about some of my own dogs. I have not had the chance to speak to many Oldtimers but a few. They do like to tell what really went on during those times.

Paper hanging should be left to show dog owners cause it dont hurt them they just breed for color and conformation. Oh yea! and makes a good pet with a big head.
I think many dogs papers are jacked up also and we can't fix the past but make the future true as we can make it.

I dont worry about what people say about my dogs and could care less if they lie about what they really know. I have yet to see a free for all just to see the best they have to offer CAUSE MONEY TALKS AND REAL BULLDOGS WALK! Some real bulldogs did not get credit for their ability due to matches to so called good dogs. Cost to much for a poor old man and his paycheck. I also heard an oldtimer say TG paid his way in the dog world cause of his money he tried to corner the market but some of his stuff craped out but so did everyone else. Every one's dogs are over rated to me and mine are to but I don't sell a dog with papers hanging off his ass. Later!

[Scotsman]

I am not trying to start anything, but Don Mayfield's biggest contribution to the dogs is rumors about other dogmen. He was stoned most of the time back then. I am sorry but I have to go with Mr. Clemmon's version over D.M's.

[DEACON ROM]

gr ch buck
ninja
honeybuch
snooty
chinaman
redboy
zebo
tab tramps litter
frisco litters
and plenty more have contraversial paper work.

i belive good dogs are where you find em, sums it up time and time again.

[misterdogman]

gr ch buck
ninja
honeybuch
snooty
chinaman
redboy
zebo
tab tramps litter
frisco litters
and plenty more have contraversial paper work.

i belive good dogs are where you find em, sums it up time and time again.This is EXACTLY what I was waiting for...look at all the rumors about some very well known and famous dogs...this isn't just about Honeybunch it is about all the dogs we based good lines off of and this is really probaly more prolific than we ever imagined...I am 100% ready to throw any ped I have in this fire I still have burning... I will probaly never register any of them anyway for those reasons..it continues the manifest of errors... because peds dont feed the dogs, make them perform, or sign any permission slips to breed... If I remember correctly isn't it the dogs that make that decision for us anyway? And remember this point if the oldtimers lied about the peds it was probaly to hide their recipe #1 reason in my eyes...their #1 goal was to still bring a dog that showed up and if that is what was passed down to our dogs who cares what it says on paper but more important is what is says in the dogs eyes and heart...This is the only goal anyway right?

[KURUPT]

Nice bit of info 440 just made me feel a bit better about some of my own dogs. I have not had the chance to speak to many Oldtimers but a few. They do like to tell what really went on during those times.

Paper hanging should be left to show dog owners cause it dont hurt them they just breed for color and conformation. Oh yea! and makes a good pet with a big head.
I think many dogs papers are jacked up also and we can't fix the past but make the future true as we can make it.

I dont worry about what people say about my dogs and could care less if they lie about what they really know. I have yet to see a free for all just to see the best they have to offer CAUSE MONEY TALKS AND REAL BULLDOGS WALK! Some real bulldogs did not get credit for their ability due to matches to so called good dogs. Cost to much for a poor old man and his paycheck. I also heard an oldtimer say TG paid his way in the dog world cause of his money he tried to corner the market but some of his stuff craped out but so did everyone else. Every one's dogs are over rated to me and mine are to but I don't sell a dog with papers hanging off his ass. Later!
Yup Garner bought Chinaman after he was retired and he did the same with Spike. All he did was add his name to the dogs when he didnt have anything to do with there hunting.

[TabDogs]

Hey im sure you don't know this but I am the guy who recently called you and purchased Rahja off your site with my business partner...Hows it going?...Anyhow what you state is very interesting concerning the same subject but totally different info...where is this written do you know or were you only told first hand? I got my info from Mr Roccas book and only base my comments off this...I never heard at the time Bullyson dogs were unpopular I heard the opposite in the book...unless you mean after he quit or something...but why wouldn't Carver just have recanted her breeding if she was that good and say she was indeed off Ironhead if she really was instead of leaving it that she was off a quitter like you say...if it is true this might be a good insight to where she really came from...I dont know??? but like I said before... only those men really do and I doubt were getting an expose soon...Good points and very interesting post...It is real funny and strangely interesting that the exact opposite story is going around about the same dog!!!I never said what i was told was the truth...I was just stated what I had heard..Some say bullyson quit some say he didnt...i wasnt there and probley no one else on this board was either...I like bullyson dogs..i never said they were bad dogs..ALL i said was the story that I was told...There was an article on Honeybunch in The best of YF&M 95 99, same thing was stated..like i said NO one knows the truth but the ones that witnessed the events in questions..All that matters to me is that she produced good dogs ...it really doesnt matter how she was bred..She proved her self time and time agian..

[KURUPT]

This is EXACTLY what I was waiting for...look at all the rumors about some very well known and famous dogs...this isn't just about Honeybunch it is about all the dogs we based good lines off of and this is really probaly more prolific than we ever imagined...I am 100% ready to throw any ped I have in this fire I still have burning... I will probaly never register any of them anyway for those reasons..it continues the manifest of errors... because peds dont feed the dogs, make them perform, or sign any permission slips to breed... If I remember correctly isn't it the dogs that make that decision for us anyway? And remember this point if the oldtimers lied about the peds it was probaly to hide their recipe #1 reason in my eyes...their #1 goal was to still bring a dog that showed up and if that is what was passed down to our dogs who cares what it says on paper but more important is what is says in the dogs eyes and heart...This is the only goal anyway right?
Your right papers don't mean shit..Some people on this board dont understand that tho and if you really want to register your dog why not do it after it has proven it self and will only be used for breeding. When someone asks me for papers off one of our dogs when its a puppy 1. It shows me that person is not a real dogger and 2. All they want to do is peddle pups off that pup as soon as they can. My Brother wanted to register all our dogs to show people they are really bred like their papers say. After long talks and fights with each other. He finally agreed with me. All registering your dogs does is give ADBA, BONA FIDA, AADR, GDR, UKC, AKC, or whoever our money and leaves a paper trail for the Law to follow to our front door. Besides the fact that getting the dogs registered dont mean shit. That aint going to prove that the dogs are really bred the way that piece of paper says..

[Scotsman]

A Lot of really dogmen register their dogs!!!!!

[misterdogman]

I never said what i was told was the truth...I was just stated what I had heard..Some say bullyson quit some say he didnt...i wasnt there and probley no one else on this board was either...I like bullyson dogs..i never said they were bad dogs..ALL i said was the story that I was told...There was an article on Honeybunch in The best of YF&M 95 99, same thing was stated..like i said NO one knows the truth but the ones that witnessed the events in questions..All that matters to me is that she produced good dogs ...it really doesnt matter how she was bred..She proved her self time and time agian..Good point, I have to agree with you 100%

[misterdogman]

Your right papers don't mean shit..Some people on this board dont understand that tho and if you really want to register your dog why not do it after it has proven it self and will only be used for breeding. When someone asks me for papers off one of our dogs when its a puppy 1. It shows me that person is not a real dogger and 2. All they want to do is peddle pups off that pup as soon as they can. My Brother wanted to register all our dogs to show people they are really bred like their papers say. After long talks and fights with each other. He finally agreed with me. All registering your dogs does is give ADBA, BONA FIDA, AADR, GDR, UKC, AKC, or whoever our money and leaves a paper trail for the Law to follow to our front door. Besides the fact that getting the dogs registered dont mean shit. That aint going to prove that the dogs are really bred the way that piece of paper says..All I can say about this is ...nuff said...exactly what was stirrin in my mind...

[SLICK WILLIE]

This post is the best I been on yet! Men were hanging papers because they had a good dog and needed a ped with a # so this would be kept in a Registry. Registry # gave a man ground to stand on to a match a dog. Without a # it was just another dog that won but had no ped for breeding. The men had something if the dog was a CH OR GRCH and a good ped to back up the profit to be made on breedings later down the line. This is not the only reason people were hanging papers but ones that were in it for the sport had to do what was needed to put a dog up another level. Misterdogman I agree with you about the pups also but I was a greenhorn at one time and thought It was about the paperwork before I found the game in its true form. I have dogs bred well over a year and the papers are still in a book waiting for the time to keep them or burn them. I went and paid good money for curs and paperwork and learned a lesson. I then paid for some dogs from a dogger and I still have not sent the paperwork off yet! but the dogs are the real deal.

The paperwork ant bad it's the man that signs them over to you that you have to judge. I am honest to people that come to my yard and ask questions! but It's like they dont want to hear the truth! They want to hear some blown up fab story about the dogs. I have learned to see false paperwork on dogs I know and track and I have found a few peds online that are false on bullshit dogs. I'll tell ya if your in the Jacksonville, NC area there are a few kennels that hang them on Frisco, Patrick dogs. One dog is a littermate to kings Buckshot off Frisco. This litter was Buckskin and a good percent of Frisco dogs are buckskin but this littermate is black and The kennel that owns this bitch thinks its got one over on dog world. NOT!
Lifes a garden dig it!

[B]

Good post bgfu!

B

[Crash97]

Your right papers don't mean shit..Some people on this board dont understand that tho and if you really want to register your dog why not do it after it has proven it self and will only be used for breeding. When someone asks me for papers off one of our dogs when its a puppy 1. It shows me that person is not a real dogger So let me get this straight. If a person wishes to have the paperwork off a dog purchased from you before it's proven then they are not a real dogger? What the hell does one have to do with the other? I know I simply would like the paperwork around time of purchase incase I should lose contact with the seller for any reason....not a far fetched case scenario. Sometimes they move around a lot....;) and 2. All they want to do is peddle pups off that pup as soon as they can...Kind of a broad assumption don't ya think?................

[Scotsman]

Amen, Crash!!

[HBK]

So much for "Honest dogmen" :(

[SLICK WILLIE]

I agree with many of the idea's here but KURUPT is saying that people want the paperwork to see the names they know. It gives them a warm and fuzzy just to see a dog they have read or been told about. Kurupt I feel your pain man! Crash I want my paperwork to when I get a dog or pup only because the jerk-offs I delt with before stood me up on paperwork and never got them for me. The dogs are good but the breeder is a jerk. I'll breed my non-papered dogs for my self and if someone likes what they see then they will know that the dog has no papers but is a quality bulldog. I can do the pedigree for the most part and just because ADBA dont have record of this dog or dogs dont mean its not a bulldog.

[DEACON ROM]

paper work shmaper work!;)

[misterdogman]

paper work shmaper work!;)I didn't think I would have so many people agree on this subject but it really shows what is important to the true dogperson...Dogs... not Trees...I mean paper. Funny too, one time my Bambam(Chinaman/Jocko) was on the chain and the neighbors scatter bred Redboy/Jocko bitch got over here (shes a family pet but what I have seen of her made me glad it wasn't some other stray non-pitbull even though she is not brood stock and he is not in possesion of papers or proven her) So when she got over to my farm she became pregnant. I wasn't even home but after my initial anger subsided I told myself well what the hell could I have done?... I took care of my dog and were a mile apart so WTF. So to make a short story long...lol... when the pups came I helped him by taking a couple to my cousin in Desmoines which are really acting well at 1year now and from what I have seen of the rest locally... all act right and 1 female and 1 male are seeming to be on my mind enough to where I have considered bringing them back to my yard for further evaluation inthe future. I felt bad for thinking this because some guys would turn up their noses to a dog scattered like this on the bottom but genetics has a law of no discrimination and if something good comes from any of these pups it wouldn't be the first time. Lots of well known dogs have no history to show and are so scatter bred they almost are just basically a "2 pits" got together type of breeding with no planned similarities. So when your concerned about what genetics will bring and what to expect be ready to have some random things happen because theirs always an exception to every rule and you never know what recessive things might show up. So to sum it it up I have dogs not papers to qualify on my yard..the way it should be... even though they all do have their peds they mean SH!T and if one of those pups turned out badass it is welcome on my yard again..

[thablacksheep]

The End.....

[Rocky H. Balboa]

I agree with all that state that what matters is what you see not what the paper states. Hence, my signature. It is nice to have peds on your dog as we like to have of our own family but when you cannot be sure of it, it is just an illusion. The best way is to measure each dog's qualities independ of the peds they carry.

[SLICK WILLIE]

I agree with all that state that what matters is what you see not what the paper states. Hence, my signature. It is nice to have peds on your dog as we like to have of our own family but when you cannot be sure of it, it is just an illusion. The best way is to measure each dog's qualities independ of the peds they carry.

Lets look at it this way! Even paperwork thats close to being right still cant produce the perfect gamedog. So many people trying to breed the paperwork and not depending on the dog itself to produce. So called Blood manipulation is a backyard breeder's way of throwing curs into the mix and always keeps us having to cull harder each time we try something from another yard. they stop and the fools still breed it. Now what we have is a cur throwing bitch or dog in the line and when will it show up next? your dog my dog or the pups we produce when? I been told to cull my dogs by men that dont have the ass to do it on their own yard cause its about the money from the pups. It just burns my ass to hear people say they cull but when you look at their yard and see stuff that you know quit that is getting bred and sold to people around the southeast and shipping everywhere in the us its just a big game to them and nothing else. I'm tired of bitching now!

[RIVES PITS]

So Is It Safe To Say That Paper Work Doesn;t Really Mean Anything Because You Don't Know If The Peds Are A Fact You Just Make The Best Of The Dog Itself?

[misterdogman]

So Is It Safe To Say That Paper Work Doesn;t Really Mean Anything Because You Don't Know If The Peds Are A Fact You Just Make The Best Of The Dog Itself?Pretty much...I wouldnt say peds mean nothing, I do like to know what im dealing with...but if its a hot performer with no ped at all...I dont care Ill take him.

[KnottyBoyNC]

Pretty much...I wouldnt say peds mean nothing, I do like to know what im dealing with...but if its a hot performer with no ped at all...I dont care Ill take him.AGREE 200%! MISTERDOGMAN stop reading my mind.........

1. a dog off of 2 proven hogdogs and he just wants 2 play with the damn dog.

2. a damn lab/hound mix that will drag a damn hog all the way 2 ur doorstep.

WHICH ONE WOULD U RATHER HAVE?

[misterdogman]

Why in the hell did my last two posts come up saying..KnottyboyNC posted them...it says he posted the last two things on the threads I posted on...but I haven't seen his posts..what the hell?

[440rider]

got to user cp ..edit options and down to Reputation-Based Filtering and lower it. Knotty has negative feedback and if your filtering is set too high you wont be able to see the postes by this user.

[KnottyBoyNC]

Knotty has negative feedback and if your filtering is set too high you wont be able to see the postes by this user.
is there a way 2 find out who gave me neg. feedback

[misterdogman]

got to user cp ..edit options and down to Reputation-Based Filtering and lower it. Knotty has negative feedback and if your filtering is set too high you wont be able to see the postes by this user.ok got it..wow if I left it at -1 id feel snotty..so I set it to -300...even the scrubs can be seen by me...lol.

[KnottyBoyNC]

well i know im not a scrub, just a guy thats seemingly not liked on this site already. If u want 2 create a site just about the positive sides of the pit bull, y call it game-dog.com? Everyones dogs are different and just cause my dog wasnt this and i didnt believe that i get neg. feedback. Wonder how many points will be taken off for saying that?

[440rider]

s there a way 2 find out who gave me neg. feedback

i dont think you can view who gave you what as far as reputation.You have negative because some members believe you give bad advice and have poor yard etiquette. Dont sweat it take good advice when it's given...sometimes it opens ones eyes, and you can never tell the whole story from pictures IMO. I just post what I feel is helpful and what i believe to be true. I don't claim to be a dogman my only claim is that I love this breed and will do what I can to see it thrive. I dont use the points or point system I lowered my filter options to view everyone posts and dont put anyone down for negative feedback I can only judge someone from my experiences and/or posts from that person not feedback about them.

[SLICK WILLIE]

Pretty much...I wouldnt say peds mean nothing, I do like to know what im dealing with...but if its a hot performer with no ped at all...I dont care Ill take him.I feel the same way about it myself! We breed to improve the dogs and anything else is just a waste. Papers give some people a motive to sell crappy dogs under good looking paperwork! Its a money maker and killing the gameness throughout the dog world. If every single person would set a high standard in their yard and not let the money get in the way we would have better dogs and culling would be just another day in the park. It would be second nature to us to make the weak and curs go away quick!

[misterdogman]

I feel the same way about it myself! We breed to improve the dogs and anything else is just a waste. Papers give some people a motive to sell crappy dogs under good looking paperwork! Its a money maker and killing the gameness throughout the dog world. If every single person would set a high standard in their yard and not let the money get in the way we would have better dogs and culling would be just another day in the park. It would be second nature to us to make the weak and curs go away quick!You speak true words...I have a funny story...I posted before about how my Bambam 4xw had got ahold of the Redboy/Jocko bitch next door when she was off her chain...well were a mile apart so I figured oh well accidental breeding...so I took the pups and her over to my place when they were born and when about 3mos I farmed some to my cousin and some friends after culling and believe it or not some are doing well off this unplanned scatter breeding...well I had 2 left I thought about keeping..you know the best ones...and this local breeder who breeds garbage came by..well he happens to be a relative to this chick I know so I kinda knew him..he supposedly breeds a hot line and a show line...whatever...well he wants a pup so I told him cool which one...he picked it and asked for a ped, I told him ok let me go write it up..he says wait these dogs dont have peds...I was like theyre off my boy and this bitch next door I can write it up but they aint registered...shes old but was proven according to her owner but she aint my dog and this breeding was an accident ...so take it or leave it...he was like well I can tell theyre gamebred but peds are EVERYTHING...I was like ok mr pedigree you can start walking before I whoop ya and turn you into feed...I wouldnt want you to have one anyway because if you had one youd turn it into a cur or breed it to your garbage...people like you take these peds and try to push sh!t eating dogs with them that couldnt compare to my dogs on their worst day...he started acting bad like he was gonna do something and said well my dogs are better they got papers ...instead of getting mad and fighting with him I was like all those white dogs in town are off your stuff and they are garbage...go get your best papered dog and we will see...he immediately threw his hands in the air and was like it aint worth it you can keep your unpaperd gamedogs...and I said and you can keep your papered curs and well both be happy...regardless if I have a decent dog dont come on my yard and talk crap about them...so he left...the dog he was going to get is now 20 mos old and already a 1xw ...some guy in MN bought her the next day for 100$... I wasnt in it for profit I gave half the money to the neighbor for feed......it was that guys loss though he could have got an unpaperd dog right there that was higher quality than his whole papered yard of curs...some people just dont get it...and maybe thats a good thing...

[GameKid16]

LOL good story misterdogman, but be careful and watch your dogs not that you made a enemy

[misterdogman]

LOL good story misterdogman, but be careful and watch your dogs not that you made a enemyoh I have motion sensors that go off in the house...and one mean ass german shepard running the farm...and CH. Bambam 4XW dont like strangers and he is the first dog you got to pass in the yard to get to the others..no other entry...so if you beat my system and 2 dogs before you get shot you can have them ..Ill help you load them up...lmao

[FIREMAN]

i agree compleley with bgfu....completeley

[SLICK WILLIE]

Good story! I have had some of the same crap happen to me to. I feel I have quality dogs with papers and without just like the next guy but trying to keep up with the Jones ant me! Just like my kennel name BGFU "Bred Game For Us" its what I like and maybe others will to and then again maybe not! Like now I bred my Spike/Midnight Cowboy dog to My Chinaman/ Jeep/ Bingo bitch Fat Annie. The two dogs are hot and off good dogs that have proven to add gameness to a yard. When they hit the ground it should be a nice BD litter. The cross is there and the Mouth added back to the top. Game to Game is the way I bred it with some stuff to boot. Later

[DryCreek]

I'd rather breed to an ugly dog than a pretty pedigree:)

[misterdogman]

Good story! I have had some of the same crap happen to me to. I feel I have quality dogs with papers and without just like the next guy but trying to keep up with the Jones ant me! Just like my kennel name BGFU "Bred Game For Us" its what I like and maybe others will to and then again maybe not! Like now I bred my Spike/Midnight Cowboy dog to My Chinaman/ Jeep/ Bingo bitch Fat Annie. The two dogs are hot and off good dogs that have proven to add gameness to a yard. When they hit the ground it should be a nice BD litter. The cross is there and the Mouth added back to the top. Game to Game is the way I bred it with some stuff to boot. LaterI would... in a perfect world.. never look at a ped...it takes time away from looking at the dogs in question...My partner Mr Zinetti from where I got my Vili dogs always told me BIS to BIS.. CH to GRCH.. GIS to BIS it dont matter the line or the blood or the generations before...no matter how fancy or tight or inbred or line bred..winners to winners make winners hands down fact final period...regardless of peds..I believe this very much so and I think I finally excepted it after I bought my first papered cur for more than my first champion with no ped...

[SLICK WILLIE]

They hang the wrong thing! If they would hang papers on good dogs it would not be so bad but they don't do that. They should hang the dogs that ant worth a crap and stop passing it on to young fools in the game!
Like your story about the dogs without papers I see it this way. Mr.dogman if you took the time to hand write a ped for me cause the dog did not have adba papers that means more to me than an adba sticker that cost me to much. The guy that passed up your pups was a fool and not to smart about the game.

[misterdogman]

They hang the wrong thing! If they would hang papers on good dogs it would not be so bad but they don't do that. They should hang the dogs that ant worth a crap and stop passing it on to young fools in the game!
Like your story about the dogs without papers I see it this way. Mr.dogman if you took the time to hand write a ped for me cause the dog did not have adba papers that means more to me than an adba sticker that cost me to much. The guy that passed up your pups was a fool and not to smart about the game.BGFU, to have the insight to see that gives me a lot of respect for you. A lot of people wouldn't see it that way but the real dogmen do.

[The Watcher]

BGFU, to have the insight to see that gives me a lot of respect for you. A lot of people wouldn't see it that way but the real dogmen do.
very important story mrdogman!
hope some learn from it.......

PS- BGFU, how is Mamma Cass?? ;)

[SLICK WILLIE]

very important story mrdogman!
hope some learn from it.......

PS- BGFU, how is Mamma Cass?? ;)Cassy is doing fine! The old belly is growing good right now just hope she ant setting me up for a false labor!