Should APBT's be used in protection/guard training!

[STPFAN]

We all know the gamedog will excell at any tasks its trained to do but due to its nature not to be man-aggressive, do you think they should be used and trained in shutzhund type work! Can developing and training apbt for protection be wrong for our breed? There stable temperment as we know it is always second-guessed by the humaniacs when an attack happens! It is fact and true that they have been bred to be aggresive to other animals and canines in there historical development in the fighting pit.......and most man-biters were culled on the spot!

Appreciate everyone's views!

YIS

[SWAMPER]

no,............................................... ......

[D.R KING]

I dont even like this sport. Let alone let a pitbull try it

[Crash97]

No, because while they excel at it due to their high intelligence and athletic ability the public already has a false preconcieved notion of these dogs being aggressive to people. The general public is gullible and use very little discretion when processing information, therefor seeing a well trained APBT doing the bitework portion of Schutzhund would be brought down to its most base level "pitbull attacking a person". Use such as this would only further this notion. IMO there are other breeds better suited to Schutzhund.

[GameKid16]

I say no,,, if your pitbull or any other kind of dog was trained for shutzhund.. he got out and somebody was walkin down the street with one of those big bubble coat lookin parka jackets. you think the dog might be mistakin and hit the wrong sleeve

[14rock]

No.....simple as that. For the reason that has already been mentioned-they were culled for hundreds of years for being human-aggressive and now you ask them to hit a sleeve (essentially the persons arm), logic will tell ya theres something wrong there. Get a Presa-german sheppard, rottweiler, etc.

[searkkennels]

no they already have a bad rap in the general public's eyes. why make it worse

[Wayne]

NO!! Like already stated these dogs have been culled out for so many years because of such acts.Even though they do excel at any sport,there would be too many people breeding for those man aggresive trates.

[Camo]

absolutely not!!! a mean bulldog needs to be culled.

[rocksteady]

Gamekid..that is not the case with a properly trained schutzhund dog. Schutzhund is not jsut a "guard -attack" dog..

while Im against guard /attack/ protection with the APBt..schutzhund is a different story.
And it would be nice to see more apbts used as detection dogs

[Camo]

An APBT should NEVER be used or taught how to bite a human. This is the old way, and the old way worked. The new modern way to breed and raise bulldogs have done nothing but brought a reproach against the breed. Our forerunners never had the problem we now have with the negative publicity against our breed. We have a great responsibility as bulldog owners to turn this around, and the way to start is by listening to the voices from the past, and some of their wisdom was to never use a dog that showed human aggression.

[B]

Simple answer... No.

B

[LCGSDmama]

"I say no,,, if your pitbull or any other kind of dog was trained for shutzhund.. he got out and somebody was walkin down the street with one of those big bubble coat lookin parka jackets. you think the dog might be mistakin and hit the wrong sleeve"
I have a dog in Schuzhund, and where I live, it snows, so people do wear those parkas that you're talking about, and I've never had a problem. When my dog is on the field, thats another story because he's in his "high drive".. but when we're walking down the street... he's not gonna give that guy a second look.

just thought I would share..

[14rock]

I have a dog in Schuzhund, and where I live, it snows, so people do wear those parkas that you're talking about, and I've never had a problem. When my dog is on the field, thats another story because he's in his "high drive".. but when we're walking down the street... he's not gonna give that guy a second look.

just thought I would share..
Not trying to start anything.....just curious in why you picked the apbt to use for schutzland out of all breeds better suited? The deal with the big jackets is pretty silly......you probably relate to that the same way we apbt owners do when ''dog experts'' say ridiculous things like to not let children play on swings because it will trigger a pitbull to go crazy and bite them. Just people ''assuming'' things that really have no factual basis.

[TopDog]

i dont think it could be good even though they have the build and athletic ability for it.

[PorsA]

If you ask me NO, because every breed has it's own purpose. So I should take a Rotweiler, Am. Bull or GSD for that.

[14rock]

Not all human aggressive dogs were culled, though, were they?
Unless they were so valuable that it would be stupid to get rid of them if you could work around their fault.

[tommy3]

Unless they were so valuable that it would be stupid to get rid of them if you could work around their fault.
This rarely happened, though. If it did, our dogs wouldn't be as good with people as they are. Most people did cull these dogs for aggression.

I personally feel that anyone that uses these dogs for bite-work/schutzund is contributing to the downfall of our breed and I will do my part to make sure that people do not use these dogs for this "sport". The people that feel it is OK to use these dogs for this are often the IDIOTS that have no idea what they are doing. If so, they would use a dog that is better for that purpose. Everyone knows this example: www.showstopperkennelsga.com (http://www.showstopperkennelsga.com)

Anyone that feels that this is Ok and can be encouraged should not own any animal. Period.

[Ruffryde]

Human aggression has no place in a proper pit bull temperment. A bulldog can excel at schutzhund or ring sport without being human aggressive. To a properly trained bulldog bitework is like a rowdy game of tug - they can interact safely, even being petted by the helper (the person wearing the sleeve/suit) because they do not feel threatened by him/her. A truly correct pit bull will have the confidence to approach the work in this manor (utilizing prey-drive, not defense). As far as the public perception; well the spring pole and treadmill are often misunderstood too - but many people still use them. Schutzhund and Ringsport are a great outlet for our dogs drive and desire to please. The kennel posted in the other link is NOT doing schutzhund - thats backyard wanna-be personal protection. Notice none of their dogs have any schutzhund/ring titles. I do NOT promote using pit bulls for personal protection or training them in a manner as to promote human aggression.

[El Mexicano]

heeeeeellllllllllllllllll no APBT's should be used for any type of guard/attack training.

[misterdogman]

No, There is plenty of breeds designed and bred for this purpose. I had a desire to have a yard/ manstopping dog and did not ever consider using an APBT, I got a German Shepard. I think even if non game and trained a APBT would never have got along in the yard like my dog now does, he looks different than the others and they never confronted anything like him, so its nature to leave him alone now, their use to him, having one APBT running loose would cause problems around the bulldogs and especially if it ever had to REALLY do its job and stop a man... then when the Authorities came and saw the other APBTs...there my hopes of explaining how it was a trained professional guard dog go, since its a shepard a line can be drawn. It is just stupid to use an APBT for something they were never bred for.

[whiteyransom]

have to agree with rocksteady. detection dog..yes. but not an attack dog. they(the breed) catch enough hell.

[Ruffryde]

I agree with both of you, no pit bull should do attack work but that doesn't mean they cant do schutzhund - Schutzhund and personal protection are two different things and a correct schutzhund dog is not showing aggression - GSD or pit bull.

[Rockstar]

"Schutzhund and personal protection are two different things..."

Would you care to explain how they are different? I mean, come on, the word schutzhund, itself, means protection dog.

[phez718]

I agree with both of you, no pit bull should do attack work but that doesn't mean they cant do schutzhund - Schutzhund and personal protection are two different things and a correct schutzhund dog is not showing aggression - GSD or pit bull. Actually most GSDs, Belgians and similar breeds are trained in defense. A person who's experienced with bulldogs would never dream of trying that, bulldogs are generally trained in prey. While GSDs and such are out there to get the bad man, bulldogs are out there to play a game of tug o war. I have a friend who has a French Ringsport trained APBT who will sit in the decoys lap(full body suit on) and lick his face, this little bulldog changed the decoys mind about our breed. BUT, most SchH and/or Ringsport trainers are NOT experienced with bulldogs, they will try and train them like your run of the mill GSD and this can and will shut a good bulldog down.

That being said I don't agree with training bulldogs in defense, but if the dog is just out there to play with that sleeve/suit then I don't see a problem with it. Those dogs are some of the most highly trained dogs I know because Ringsport and SchH require a passing score in every venue of the sport to qualify. They can do great in protection, but if they fail obedience they're disqualified.

[Rockstar]

This rarely happened, though. If it did, our dogs wouldn't be as good with people as they are. Most people did cull these dogs for aggression.

I personally feel that anyone that uses these dogs for bite-work/schutzund is contributing to the downfall of our breed and I will do my part to make sure that people do not use these dogs for this "sport". The people that feel it is OK to use these dogs for this are often the IDIOTS that have no idea what they are doing. If so, they would use a dog that is better for that purpose. Everyone knows this example: www.showstopperkennelsga.com (http://www.showstopperkennelsga.com/)

Anyone that feels that this is Ok and can be encouraged should not own any animal. Period.
Wow! You're certainly entitled to your opinion, tommyt, but let me just say that it is no secret that I have a game-to-the-hilt APBT that is certified Class II in protection work. Seems there are a lot of people who are clueless as to how incredibly stable these dogs really are, if trained properly. Believe me, it isn't the professionally trained schutzhund dogs that are out there attacking people. Show me one such case, and I'll eat my words. By professionally trained, I'm not referring to backyard training done by obvious morons such as Showstopper. Frankly, I'm getting sick of arguing my point. Go hang out with some schutzhund dogs for awhile, then come back and tell everyone how vicious and unstable they are. I'm neither condoning such sports, nor condemning them; I'm only trying to shed some light on all this misunderstanding, since few here seem to have any personal experience whatsoever in the matter.
Another note: when these dogs are "tugging" on the sleeve, lol, there is no way one can consider it as "playing." They are dead-serious, focused, and determined. Sometimes they're being hit hard with dowel rods or bamboo sticks in an effort to make them release the sleeve. Depending on what the decoy is doing at the time, if the sleeve happens to come off, the dog isn't just going to go running off with it; the decoy is probably going to be in trouble. That being said, once you give the "out!" command and allow the dog a little time to assess the situation. The decoy could go up and give the dog a big fat kiss on the mouth if he wanted to.
Proper protection training is far removed from teaching a dog to hate or fear or distrust humans; it's quite the opposite really. These dogs are taught well to carefully and accurately judge any given situation. The idea is controlled protection, not mindless aggression.

[Ruffryde]

Actually most GSDs, Belgians and similar breeds are trained in defense. A person who's experienced with bulldogs would never dream of trying that, bulldogs are generally trained in prey. While GSDs and such are out there to get the bad man, bulldogs are out there to play a game of tug o war. I have a friend who has a French Ringsport trained APBT who will sit in the decoys lap(full body suit on) and lick his face, this little bulldog changed the decoys mind about our breed. BUT, most SchH and/or Ringsport trainers are NOT experienced with bulldogs, they will try and train them like your run of the mill GSD and this can and will shut a good bulldog down.

That being said I don't agree with training bulldogs in defense, but if the dog is just out there to play with that sleeve/suit then I don't see a problem with it. Those dogs are some of the most highly trained dogs I know because Ringsport and SchH require a passing score in every venue of the sport to qualify. They can do great in protection, but if they fail obedience they're disqualified.I dont agree that pure defense is the way to go with any breed, obviously most Mals & GSDs are going to be able to be able to utilize the defense drive - thats what they were bred for, but it is never supposed to be purely defense, IMO. I think a good MAL/GSD should have a balence between the two (prey / defense - even using primarily defense is o.k for a non-bulldog). I do agree with you that it is a whole different ball game training a GSD or mal to do bitework, and that a bulldog should not be trained in defense AT ALL . To a correct bulldog the bitework should always be a game, thats why it is possible for some bulldogs out there to be doing schutzhund and visiting nursing homes to do therapy work - I know of a couple that do both. I think a correct bulldog is the most versatile breed out there and can truly "do it all".

[Ruffryde]

when these dogs are "tugging" on the sleeve, lol, there is no way one can consider it as "playing." They are dead-serious, focused, and determined. Sometimes they're being hit hard with dowel rods or bamboo sticks in an effort to make them release the sleeve. I do not think controlled aggression is acceptable for a bulldog. A correct bulldog can still be focused and driven without being aggressive. My dog loves getting hit while hes biting (even while playing tug or while on his spring pole), he gets much more intense and and you can almost see him kick his determination up a notch - no aggression involved. I guess it depends on what your definition of "playing" is; lol my dog thinks everything in life is a big game - he is still amazingly focused, determined, and driven but not even slightly aggressive. You see him chasing his ball like his life depened on it but he is not showing aggression, just prey drive.

[sisu]

NO, no, no. I trained one of my Rotts for schutzhund and I will never do it again. She never had a problem but after the training was all done I realized I had a concealed carry dog. I don't need that. I love my dogs and cats for companionship etc.

Hey what the heck is going on in Denver??? How is the Game Dog Ban going? Is it just APBT or all of the breeds? I live in a rural area and so far no one has proposed this type of thing where I live although about 5 hours away there is a city that passed a law that says IF YOU FEEL THREATENED BY A DOG THEN THE DOG IS DANGEROUS.
That is why I live 5 hours away.

[RHI]

not sure if anyones seen this already, someone had posted on another board....

http://www3.strangeland.com/gallery/SL_00003714.wmv (http://www3.strangeland.com/gallery/SL_00003714.wmv)

[misterdogman]

not sure if anyones seen this already, someone had posted on another board....

http://www3.strangeland.com/gallery/SL_00003714.wmv (http://www3.strangeland.com/gallery/SL_00003714.wmv)Id have killed the damn manbiter too, but id have done it long before the cops came, Im sure someone in another apartment had a knife or something! Guns!!! Kills dogs dead.

[GaDog]

For me its a toss up. I would like to see the dogs doing more public work but at the same time understand the concerns that myself and others here have. It is unfortunate that with a dog with such ability that we sometimes must think of the preseptions others will have. As an owner and rescuer of the breed I see on a regular basis the unfounded fear so many have. I myself work my little red girl with the Delta Society as a therapy dog. We currently are training 5 bullies for agility and obediance. If given a choice, and I am I prefer to stay away from the agressive sports in leu of the cute ones. If we with time are able to get past the hype then the would be great at anything they are given a chance to do.

[Pluto's Princess]

schutzhund is an OBEDIENCE sport, but teaching a pitbull to bite people, even if you can call them off is an accident waiting to happen. too many people would jump on an oppurtunity to put your "aggressive" dog down.

[madpit]

http://www.k-9prosport.com/RES040905.htm

[madpit]

http://www.k-9prosport.com/2004%20Final%20Standings.htm

[Rockstar]

I wanted to bring up this outstanding response by Miakoda on this topic, from May:

"... my question is this? Out of how many dogs in a training class did that pit bull beat out to become top dog to do bite work? How many months, sometimes a year, of obedience training did that dog do BEFORE it even saw a sleeve? Hmmm? It seems someone had a dog, wanted that dog to do bite work, & so did it. This is STREET TRAINING! When experienced people & trainers look at dogs to do bitework, they test many many dogs to find the very few who are actually mentally stable & physically capable. And experienced Schutzhund trainer doesn't just see a pretty dog he likes or owns & decides that dog is gonna get to chase someone, knock him done, & bite the hell out of 'em. But you see? The months of training, the strict requirements, & the PROFESSIONAL training are all left out.

Am I against any apbt ever doing Schutzhund? Not really. But am I against just any person taking one of their dogs & deciding what they're gonna do w/out the TRUE testing it requires all b/c some other dog trainer (who's probably NOT an experienced Schutzhund trainer) owns a sleeve & can rile a dog up enough to get him to bite. The bite work & sleeve work is a reward for the most dedicated, obedient, & trained dogs. These dogs are tested over & over again before they even see a sleeve. Unfortunately, any Joe Blow can go buy a sleeve & get a dog to bite on it. That's not too hard. But making sure & KNOWING that you have the RIGHT dog to do so is not something very many people know how to do.

So unless someone actually has their dog enrolled in Schutzhund training classes done by a qualified professional, I don't want to see it. It's irresponsible and it's the easy way out that will one day result in a major catastrophy in which every apbt owner will feel."

Excellent post, and echoes my thoughts exactly.

[GaDog]

I agree with the above post. It is not the professional that is the problem it is the wanna be who will become the problem for us all.

[Big Papa]

no i wouldnt do it

[jawbones]

I'm moving two dogs this weekend just because they have been human aggressive. A dog as powerful as these should never be taught to be human aggressive.

[whiteyransom]

no joke. i got a friend that had two females. they locked eyes and she swatted at the larger dog and the smaller thought the other had moved and she got bit twice on the forearm. she had 6-8 good 1/2" holes in her arm. they weren't really full fites, just a warning nip, and her sh*t was messed up for weeks

[GaDog]

Again I believe that he breed has the ability to do anything, but the question is should it. Again I have to say the timing is not right. The dog is fine it is the people who are not ready for pits ripping at the sleeve. Which people? The ones who support the ignorant law maker watching a compition video think how visious the breed must be to bite at a mans arm like that. The same politician who would think that the man willing to train a dog to be at a high level of compitition would let his dogs run the neighborhood. As earlier stated by me the problem also is the wanna be trainiers who may attempt to train dogs that may be running the streets.

[Hankdad]

How many of you have seen an actual Schutzhund, French Ring, AWDF, PSA or any protection work trial? How many of you have actually gone and done formal obedience on your dog? These are just questions forthe board. I am curious. I am a trainer and compete with my dogs on a national level. I am truly curious about the experience that he board has with protection work how to go about it and such. Hankdad/Shane

[catcher T]

in my opinion any breed of dog can be trained in any kind of protection work. It just depends on the training method in some dogs. I do k9 officer work, personal protection, assailant take downs, and so on. As far as size goes, the smaller more compact pits could do this, the big 100lb ones might have a harder time, they would certainly move slower. I am still learning about the pit bulls in general, I think it boils down to personality and an eagerness to please.

[tommy3]

I am completely against competing in schutzund with these dogs. Therea are breeds that are better suited for it, that are bred for it (not against it), and every other breed out there doesn't have a manbiting image like the pit bull. Why add to the BS hype? I understand that it is more of a sport when done properly than a dog trying to kill someone. However, the public doesn't see it that way. They see it as another pit bull attacking someone and being trained to do it.

[dianabol]

NO!! NO!! NO!! NO!! did i mention N0.LOL

[catcher T]

There is a specific training method in Shuntzund, I would agree that there are probably better breeds out there for this type of training. The only reason I see, is in size and body type, I can't see a little dog doing this or a great dane.
The dogs I train need to scale a 8ft wall, they need to jump through a window, they have to have a good prey drive. Even in Guard or protection training none of these dogs are on their own head, they on the trainers head, there is no emotion on the dogs part, it is all a fun game to them. all the shuntzund trained dogs are amazing, there is alot of work that goes into the correct training, it is not about making a dog mean. I can fire up a well trained dog, you would think he is going to kill you I can "aus" him (make him stop or let go) with one command and he can be touched immediatley by the very person that I just fired him up on. I would love to pitts in positve ways. everyone loves a well trained dog. It is awesome to watch.

[Dameon]

I train Rollo in Schutzhund. I feel regardless what kind of dog, obedience is a must. I discourage dog aggression or animal aggression in my dog. A well trained dog is like a martial arts expert, you normally don't see them starting bar fights. It's a higher level of decipline. You're more than welcome to look at my gallery to see some of his work. But as far as arguing... I'm not stooping to that level. If anyone would like to PM me and ask questions, I'd be more than happy to answer. How many of you have seen an actual Schutzhund, French Ring, AWDF, PSA or any protection work trial? How many of you have actually gone and done formal obedience on your dog? These are just questions forthe board. I am curious. I am a trainer and compete with my dogs on a national level. I am truly curious about the experience that he board has with protection work how to go about it and such. Hankdad/Shane

[catcher T]

I train Rollo in Schutzhund. I feel regardless what kind of dog, obedience is a must. I discourage dog aggression or animal aggression in my dog. A well trained dog is like a martial arts expert, you normally don't see them starting bar fights. It's a higher level of decipline. You're more than welcome to look at my gallery to see some of his work. But as far as arguing... I'm not stooping to that level. If anyone would like to PM me and ask questions, I'd be more than happy to answer.
I would whole heartedly agree!

[SEAL]

i think with official and thorough training it is not a problem. this all goes back to reputation kind of like reputable breeders you want a reputable trainer.

[miakoda]

We KNOW what kind of training goes into Schutzhund. And we also know that you can't "train" dog aggression out of an APBT.

I just fell that their are plenty of other breeds who were bred for this purpose to use. There's no reason to do so with a "pit bull". Unfortunately, the general public does not know what kind of training goes into the making of a true Schutzhund dog & all they see is a dog attacking someone. You never see obedience pics or handling pics...you only see bitework pics posted thereby, whether meaning to or not, giving the image that bitework (aka "attacking people" to the public) is the main even when in fact it's only a reward. The negative press the dogs receive despite one's arguing about the sport of Schutzhund, just isn't worth it. We have enough bad press on our dogs....why create more & post pics of it on the internet?.

[Pluto's Princess]

while shutzhund is an amazing sport that focuses on OBEDIENCE, i personally don't believe that it is the best sport for pits. a lot of people think of shutzhund as mostly attacking, the purpose is for them to be called off. why teach your dog to bite people, if you really needed him i'm sure he would protect you.

[Hankdad]

"A well trained dog is like a martial arts expert"
I often use this in my training sessions. I also use the boxing analogy. It is hard to say here that you can use a APBT for this type of work however I will say this and ask the board to think about it.

Does your dog have tenacity?
Does your dog have the wilingness to learn?
Does your dog have prey drive?
Does your dog always want to please you?
Does your dog have heart?
Is your dog a thinker?
Does your dog look to you for approval?
Does your dog have the never say die attitude?
Does your dog like to play ruff?
Does your dog like to run?
Does your dog have a confidence about it?
Does your dog like to tug at stuff and take it away proud after it has it?

If you answered yes to all of these you may have a dog that could do Schutzhund or French Ring.Now I would suspect that a lot of us have all of these traits in our dogs but don't want and don't think that our dogs should bite people.That is why a lot of people I know and deal with want to use the APBT because of these traits as well as the short hair and their stigmatism within the public eye.
I say to you this. What better way to advertise that our dogs are controllable in the face of the public than do some of the hardest training on the planet and then have that same dog be under control with people and kids, that are not their own but strangers. Is that not showing the general public that they are wrong in the best possible way, not arguing but proving them absolutley wrong by showing them. A trained dog, is a Happy dog. It is a confident dog. It is a relaxed dog. Lets face it a lot of the dogs that are on TV biting people are fearful of people thru either bad breeding or lack of socilization. They get loose and feel cornered and bam it happens. The fight or flight comes out and they bite. Or, they are on chains(I have nothing against chains) and they break or get off it somehow and the prey drive that has been built up in them and the frustration that they have from being on tha chain is finally getting to be released and they see something running or moving and they bite it and bite it hard, they shake it and try to kill it. Like their natural instincts are, like a wolf in the wild would do a rabbit. It is this that occurs more than anything, the naturalness of prey in our dogs the see it, chase it, bite it, and kill it. Some dogs have it more than others but they all have it. This is the horror story of our breeds and it is not a mistake made by the dog but ourselves in not getting out and releaving that frustration. This same chain and release is used in teaching dogs to bite while in protection work but it is controlled, praised, and encouraged to be released in that particular instance.
I specialize in training Bully breeds, all bully breeds,from the Staffy Bull thru the Bull Mastiff. They are wired slightly different than the herding breeds and
it does take someone to know that to help them understandf that the game is fun but it is not done all the time. It has to be a "controlled violence." One of the first things taught is the " out or aus" and obedience. It is one of the foundation things done with Bully breeds because of their nature to bite and hold on. That was bred into them and it is something they naturally do better than the herding breeds. This "out" comand is done motivationally not with any corrections or break sticks, but just with soft voice and reward. This is just how I teach it, not the norm or the only way.

If you have not been out to see Schutzhund or French ring in person please go out and see it and see how the control is maintained in these dogs. If you have and stillfeel the same way maybe you can see a Bully breed do it and make the call then. If you still feel the same way that is cool this is America you have that right.LOL You may want to try out Iron Dog it is geared more to our Bully breeds. It is enjoyable way to get your dog out and compete in something other than just weight pull. It does have a bite but you can skip that portion I think. You will have to go thru a little obedience test to compete. Here is the website for Iron Dog: www.irondog.biz (http://www.irondog.biz)

Remember this is not the law, just my 2 cents. Keep learning, Keep Bulldoggin, keep training. Hankdad/Shane
P.S. I will try and post some vid of one of my good friends APBT that does French Ring so you can see it. "controlled violence"
BTW sorry for the looooong post.LOL

[Dameon]

Thank you....Well said....I have complet control on my dog at ALL times.

[SEAL]

this is something i would like to look into with my dog but i dont know of ne one in baton rouge. does ne one here know of a group in baton rouge?

[americandream]

obedience is a must..... definatly. if you dont have control at all times....you have nothing.

dameon your dog is amazing. you could tell he was taught properly. :)

[miakoda]

does ne one here know of a group in baton rouge? There is a a guy (local state trooper) who runs a small group, but he will not accept any of the "pit bull" breeds except American Bulldogs. He doesn't discriminate because of likes, he loves the breeds, but rather because he feels they shouldn't have to learn to do something that screams against their very breeding of what NOT to do. He will work on the obedience aspects but will not engage in bitework. He says it's not fair to the breed. I will talk to him & if he oks it, then I will give you his name & number in a pm. But remember, he feels very much like I do & like 99% of the APBT population in the use of these dogs for this sport & no amount of persuasion will get him to train your dog in bitework. And God forbid you even say the term "protection training" or he will have your ass.........

[SEAL]

no prob not real interested in bit work
they know how to do that when they have to
obediance and some of the search training is interesting to me. thanks mia

[Texasbulldogs]

"A well trained dog is like a martial arts expert"
I often use this in my training sessions. I also use the boxing analogy.
Only thing a martial arts expert and a trained sport dog have in common is hours of training. A dog is told what/where/why to do something, unlike a martial arts expert. There is no comparison between the two other than the amount of training needed to become good at said sport.



I would suspect that a lot of us have all of these traits in our dogs but don't want and don't think that our dogs should bite people.
Just because a trainer can/could bring out the fight drive in this breed and train them for that sport doesn’t mean it should be done. Like history show’s us once people start competing in that type of sport it is always followed by breeding for it! If you look at the “look alike” APBT’s that compete in that type of sport, they are only shells of a true bulldog!



That is why a lot of people I know and deal with want to use the APBT because of these traits as well as the short hair and their stigmatism within the public eye.
A lot of people “deal” with this breed, most don’t really have bulldogs just a piece of paper claiming they are “APBT’s”! Which is where is gets confusing for many especially new people researching this breed.



What better way to advertise that our dogs are controllable in the face of the public than do some of the hardest training on the planet and then have that same dog be under control with people and kids, that are not their own but strangers.
Since when did obedience training, bite work, and running around an 80m X 100m field where everything is known prior to entering the field, except score, constitute “hardest training on the planet”? Many I’m sure could show their dogs are great with people without having to put on a show prior to it.



Is that not showing the general public that they are wrong in the best possible way, not arguing but proving them absolutley wrong by showing them.
Sounds good in theory, but the truth is most don’t know anything about Schutzund, French/Belgian Ring, KNVP, etc. let alone actually seen it in person. Being the average Joe has never seen it unless a glimpse on TV how is it “showing” them anything?



Lets face it a lot of the dogs that are on TV biting people are fearful of people thru either bad breeding or lack of socilization. They get loose and feel cornered and bam it happens. The fight or flight comes out and they bite. Or, they are on chains(I have nothing against chains) and they break or get off it somehow and the prey drive that has been built up in them and the frustration that they have from being on tha chain is finally getting to be released and they see something running or moving and they bite it and bite it hard, they shake it and try to kill it. Like their natural instincts are, like a wolf in the wild would do a rabbit. It is this that occurs more than anything, the naturalness of prey in our dogs the see it, chase it, bite it, and kill it. Some dogs have it more than others but they all have it. This is the horror story of our breeds and it is not a mistake made by the dog but ourselves in not getting out and releaving that frustration. This same chain and release is used in teaching dogs to bite while in protection work but it is controlled, praised, and encouraged to be released in that particular instance.
That is true but has nothing to do with the topic of discussion. They aren’t going to change their ways suddenly because they hear about Schutzund.



P.S. I will try and post some vid of one of my good friends APBT that does French Ring so you can see it. "controlled violence"
Looking forward to it would also like seeing it’s pedigree.

[SEAL]

tex is a surgeon of the forum he can cut em up and break em down..... good points tex

[Hankdad]

Tex, I respect your thoughts and appreciate the Banter.
I liken the Discipline of trainnig dogs in protection work to the sports analogies because it is something that peopel can wrap their minds around. You are correct when you say that the Martial Artist has the choice to react and not react. It is that way too with a well trained dog, not half trained but well trained dog. The "human" has the choice wheter to react or not react. It is nevr the dogs decision to react on its own, unless trained for a specific exercise.
I would have to say that your opinion on wether a certain breed of dog is or is not the same dog as APBT is solid however there are plenty of APBTs working to. Your statement "shell of a real bulldog" is quite a great assumption. I know a lot of APBTs that can't handle man work and a lot of ABs or Presas that can and vice versa. This is why I prefer to go by wach indidual dog. Some dogs don't have the heart like I stated if your dog has all those traits.
I agree that the true a true APBT, Rottie, GSD, AB, and so on are few and far between desote what peoples papers say.
Nothing about the OB and bite work has to do with great dogs, however that is what they do in Schutzhund, FR, KNPV, PSA, etc... it dose show that the dog has control and is another testament to having a great dog. Like I said most dogs can't handle this stuff and fold under pressure. When I was talking about he hardest traing I was speaking mainly of French Ring and the suit disciplines not schutzhund.
I totally agree with youor state ment that the average joe has never seen or even heard about it and wouldn't know it if they saw it. They would just think that they are watching an APBT run down the field and bite a person. I woulld however think that once they saw the control that they could be under they would relaize that it can be done, however I guess that it is my turn to do the assuming.LOL
I don't see a problem with breeding your dog for a specific discipline, the herding breeders ahve been doing it for years in man work and herding ability. I am tryingto get these traits in my dogs when I breed them. The rottie people have bred dogs to do man work forever also. The old time Bulldoggers did this when bull baiting was not illegal also. If the dog couldn't do the job they where culled but if 2 particular dogs did the job well they put them together in hopes to produce better dogs. Just my humble thoughts on this.
I again am guilty of assuming that a lot of people here have either seen or been exposed to PP work. That is why I posted if you have not gone out and seen it done, go educate yourself on it and it may or may not change your mind. Not trying to push my thoughts on anyone but trying to get people to understand that it may be an option for them and to check it out.
I will get some video up tomorrow, and agian thanx for your honest opinions and I welcome them since it opens my eyes to other peoples thoughts and feelings about the APBT. Not the law just my 2 cents. Keep learning, Keep Bulldoggin, keep training. Hankdad

[Dameon]

I would like to clarify something. NOBODY other than my club members see my dog bite. Formal demonstrations at schools in city parks etc.. I ONLY show OB. I am here to only make the breed look good.

[Texasbulldogs]

Your statement "shell of a real bulldog" is quite a great assumption.
How so? I don’t think I “assumed” anything, but stated the facts. Once a person starts’ using similar criterion’s the Shepard community uses for breeding decisions how are they not, only left with a “shell of a real bulldog”? The three parts Schutzund concentrates on helps perpetuates this breed how? For instance there is a local “pit bull” by me that (I believe) has a BH, WH, and currently going for it SCH 3. Well trained dog, but it was attacked a few months ago in a field during training by a stray dog. This well trained and titled “pit bull” immediately started screaming…so is it not a “shell of a bulldog”? Yet because of its “titles” it will get bred, yet if sticking to the standard…it would have been spayed at the minimum.


Nothing about the OB and bite work has to do with great dogs, however that is what they do in Schutzhund, FR, KNPV, PSA, etc... it dose show that the dog has control and is another testament to having a great dog.
Is the whole concept of Mandio, French, and Belgian Ring, along with Schutzhund not to be used to evaluate breeding stock, breed suitability testing? Sound like it is about finding “great dogs” worthy of breeding, to me.


I was talking about he hardest traing I was speaking mainly of French Ring and the suit disciplines not schutzhund.
I still don’t think it would qualify as the “hardest training on the planet”. To obtain a Ring 3 title, normally around 35-45 minutes. That is not a lot of work for a canine athlete, though they are under some stress. But none of which can constitute “hardest training on the planet”. I’m sure a Lab taken straight out of his kennel run to sit in and swim in icy water all day retrieving ducks, is just as tired, mentally drained, and also well trained. Yet no one is saying they are receiving the “hardest training on the planet”.


They would just think that they are watching an APBT run down the field and bite a person.
If you also agree, why do you train them for said sport?


I don't see a problem with breeding your dog for a specific discipline, the herding breeders ahve been doing it for years in man work and herding ability.
That’s the problem everyone wants to get a breed and start destroying it by breeding away from its original form and function! If someone wants to do personal protection sports, get a Dutch Shepard, Malinois, Beauceron, etc. don’t ruin this breed! Like you’ve stated the herding breeders have been doing it for years, stick with them besides the sport is tailored around them.


I am tryingto get these traits in my dogs when I breed them.
Why not use a dog designed and tailored for said sport instead of trying to breed the APBT for it and ruin the breed in the process?

[Hankdad]

You assume that the dog in question does not have what it takes to be a real APBT in your eyes or breed standard. Like previously stated real dogs are few and far between. Schutzhund was created as a GSd test for breeding however you are correct but it has also become the largest and most accepted test for dog s to do with protection work. I can not and will not say that it will ever become the best test for the APBT. At this time I would haveto say that Hoggin is that, but that is just my opinion.

Yes all the disciplines started off as a BST and still are. I think that the APBT in a nutshell can not do what it was bred to do in most states so they acceptence of these BST where made for the breed. I still think it is one of the best ways to test your dog other than Hoggin. A lot of us can not go hoggin so it really limits it to man and weight pull work.

I would not say that the Lab has done anything different fomr what it ws bred for and would not be as tired or drained. Like you stated why breed against or away from the traits that are natural so that wouldn't be anything the Lab couldn't handle. As far as time on the field in a FR3 the dog is therefor more like and 1hr-1hr15min. This is mentally draining and physically draining. Yes for most APBT that have any type of conditiong that is not that bad but that is also why people are looking to them for the work they can keep their focus and have incredible stamina. Just what the breed type is so why not focus it in a way that has man work involved.

Why do I train for said discipline, because I can and it is even better to prove people wrong or show them that they are not all like what the media says they are. I will also be training one in drug detection work too. When people find out my dog has a CGC and a TDI as well as helps my wife as assistance dog then does bite work they flip out. Good dog balanced and social.

How is breeding for specific triats that I like in my dogs ruining the breed? If they are natural traits and genes that happen anyway? Is this not just lowering the odds of what I want in a dog? Does this not encourage and the traits that I want to show up more? I have not bred dogs for long and don't consider myself and "Breeder" I have had to litters with great success for what I do with my dogs. They are family friendly and social. They have been everything that the people that own them wanted so I am happy with that.
Why don't i get a DS, Mal, or Beau? BecauseI don't like herding breeds, I like the respect that the Bully breeds command and I like the fact that they are public enemy number 1. I like proving people wrong about the breed. I love the undying loyalty that they have for us and the incredible work ethic. The herders just like the work but they most certainly don't have the peopel aspect about them.
Tex, if you just think that the APBT doing man work is just the bitchification of the breed let me know. I will respect your opinion and leave it at that.
I think we come from 2 different perspectives about the breed.
I do have a question for you. What in your opinion is the best breed test?
BTW, some video I promised of a friends dog. I really like this dog and think he is asolid as they come. Not bad looking either. I couldn't tell you how he is bred though sorry. Enjoy
www.desertrockkennels.com/videos/ringpart1.wmv
Your statement "shell of a real bulldog" is quite a great assumption.
How so? I don’t think I “assumed” anything, but stated the facts. Once a person starts’ using similar criterion’s the Shepard community uses for breeding decisions how are they not, only left with a “shell of a real bulldog”? The three parts Schutzund concentrates on helps perpetuates this breed how? For instance there is a local “pit bull” by me that (I believe) has a BH, WH, and currently going for it SCH 3. Well trained dog, but it was attacked a few months ago in a field during training by a stray dog. This well trained and titled “pit bull” immediately started screaming…so is it not a “shell of a bulldog”? Yet because of its “titles” it will get bred, yet if sticking to the standard…it would have been spayed at the minimum.


Nothing about the OB and bite work has to do with great dogs, however that is what they do in Schutzhund, FR, KNPV, PSA, etc... it dose show that the dog has control and is another testament to having a great dog.
Is the whole concept of Mandio, French, and Belgian Ring, along with Schutzhund not to be used to evaluate breeding stock, breed suitability testing? Sound like it is about finding “great dogs” worthy of breeding, to me.


I was talking about he hardest traing I was speaking mainly of French Ring and the suit disciplines not schutzhund.
I still don’t think it would qualify as the “hardest training on the planet”. To obtain a Ring 3 title, normally around 35-45 minutes. That is not a lot of work for a canine athlete, though they are under some stress. But none of which can constitute “hardest training on the planet”. I’m sure a Lab taken straight out of his kennel run to sit in and swim in icy water all day retrieving ducks, is just as tired, mentally drained, and also well trained. Yet no one is saying they are receiving the “hardest training on the planet”.


They would just think that they are watching an APBT run down the field and bite a person.
If you also agree, why do you train them for said sport?


I don't see a problem with breeding your dog for a specific discipline, the herding breeders ahve been doing it for years in man work and herding ability.
That’s the problem everyone wants to get a breed and start destroying it by breeding away from its original form and function! If someone wants to do personal protection sports, get a Dutch Shepard, Malinois, Beauceron, etc. don’t ruin this breed! Like you’ve stated the herding breeders have been doing it for years, stick with them besides the sport is tailored around them.


I am tryingto get these traits in my dogs when I breed them.
Why not use a dog designed and tailored for said sport instead of trying to breed the APBT for it and ruin the breed in the process?

[miakoda]

Why not use a dog designed and tailored for said sport instead of trying to breed the APBT for it and ruin the breed in the process?
Tex, I can answer your last question. It's easy. It's because some people's love for themselves, their own pride, their own vanity, their own ego, & their own reputation far outweights the love of the breed of dog they own. If this were not true then the breed would not be forced to change into something that it is not--that person would love it & accept it for what it is. To love a breed is to accept it wholeheartedly the way it was, the way it is, & the way it is to be without feeling a need to change something. If one looks at a breed, says he loves it, yet tries with all his might to change it, does not really love the breed, but rather loves the feeling & the "what ifs" the breed might do for him or bring to him. It's sad really. So many say they love the American Pit Bull Terrier but all they really love is the name. The rest of the dog is looked down upon & forced into a mold that many hundreds of years of selective breeding have kept it away from.

[catcher T]

he's not talking about changing a whole breed, he's only trying to make everyone understand that they can be trained like any other dog. With a positive side to it. one of my dogs is a shetland sheepdog, I don't have a herd of sheep for her to chase around, when she was young she would try to nip at any fast moving objects, kids running, someone on a bike etc, I didnt change the breed, just stopped her from this behavior. Why wouldn't anyone want apbts displayed in a positive light? It would be rediculous to keep every breed doing what they were intended to do. Japanese chins sat in bird cages by the front door to show wealth. Lahso Apsos sat in the sleeves of the kings ready to come out and attack. So, not one person on this forum does conformation, obedience, flyball, agility etc. with their apbt. are they all couch potatoes? What can one do with their pit that wouldn't show an inflated ego?

[Texasbulldogs]

You assume that the dog in question does not have what it takes to be a real APBT in your eyes or breed standard.
How am I “assuming” once again? Out of all the APBT’s that are used for said sport I’ve not seen one game-bred dog partaking in said competition. So if they aren’t being breed for their gameness first and foremost, are they bulldogs? Howard B. has some nice working titled dog would breed enthusiast think they are true bulldogs?


Like previously stated real dogs are few and far between.
Could that be because they aren’t designed to be used in protection type events? Until recently many of the clubs didn’t want them training with them.


Schutzhund was created as a GSd test for breeding however you are correct but it has also become the largest and most accepted test for dog s to do with protection work.
So since it’s became the “largest” (still unknown by most) we should now start using this breed? Why would anyone care if this breed does a breed suitability test for another breed?


I can not and will not say that it will ever become the best test for the APBT.
I’d hope not nor should it ever be ONCE! This is not a herding breed so why test for herding standards?


At this time I would haveto say that Hoggin is that, but that is just my opinion.
How is hog hunting? If that was true the original “hog dogs” wouldn’t be decedents of curs that didn’t workout in the pits, now would it.


I still think it is one of the best ways to test your dog other than Hoggin. A lot of us can not go hoggin so it really limits it to man and weight pull work.
Neither are the “best ways to test” this breed.

I would not say that the Lab has done anything different fomr what it ws bred for and would not be as tired or drained.
How could he not be tired or drained, being most are pulled straight out of their kennels without any conditioning prior? Then is the Lab wouldn’t be “tired or drained” why should a herder doing Schutzhund or Ring sport be any different then?


Like you stated why breed against or away from the traits that are natural so that wouldn't be anything the Lab couldn't handle.
I’m not sure why people like you do it, get a breed and then want to change it and turn it into something it was never supposed to be. It happens with every working breed of dogs there is! Just look at Lab’s for instance and you’ll soon see the overwhelming majority of them are useless couch warmers that couldn’t hunt if their lives depended on it. You could go down the list on most every breed, sadly!

As far as time on the field in a FR3 the dog is therefor more like and 1hr-1hr15min.
Well according to D. Berneuil, J. Camarena, D, Piton (judges) say otherwise, though M. Valladon, C. Del Pech (French judges) say that’s more of a normal time in their country. That’s all reputable judges I know of in the sport and have seen their dogs, except for the French judges only meet them at events.


This is mentally draining and physically draining.
Like you stated earlier they are breed to handle that stress and should be able to! Not sure it’s as mentally draining as most would have you believe. The dog is trained for it and knows everything that’s going to happen.


Just what the breed type is so why not focus it in a way that has man work involved.
Simple…not breed nor designed for it!

Why do I train for said discipline, because I can and it is even better to prove people wrong or show them that they are not all like what the media says they are.
How are you showing anyone anything, you’ve all ready stated most haven’t heard of Schutzund, etc? Plus how did it help the German Shepard in the 60’s, Doberman’s in the 80’s, and Rottweilers in the 90’s? I’ll tell you…It didn’t make a damn bit of difference!

When people find out my dog has a CGC and a TDI as well as helps my wife as assistance dog then does bite work they flip out. Good dog balanced and social.
That’s great most are impressed with any “title” despite the ease of some. I’m not though the CGC and TDI aren’t hard to get on a dog, many a mutts receive them yearly. Heck if anything the CGC is easier now a days than ever before, used to only get one shot at it. Nor is basic bite work hard, though impressive to those unfamiliar with it.


How is breeding for specific triats that I like in my dogs ruining the breed?
You want to start selectively breeding for a sport this breed was never intended to do. You are trying to breed this dog for traits Shepard breeders look for in their stock. How are you not ruining it?


If they are natural traits and genes that happen anyway?
Just because a dog has or may have prey, defense, social, pack, food, sex, fight, etc. drives doesn’t mean it should be used for protection work. If you are interested in it why not get a breed designed and breed for said task?


I have not bred dogs for long and don't consider myself and "Breeder" I have had to litters with great success for what I do with my dogs. They are family friendly and social. They have been everything that the people that own them wanted so I am happy with that.
Since you’ve bred a few litters, post their pedigrees.



Why don't i get a DS, Mal, or Beau? BecauseI don't like herding breeds, I like the respect that the Bully breeds command and I like the fact that they are public enemy number 1.
Ok so it’s nothing more than an “image” thing for you? Not sure how a “bully breed” commands respect over any other breed. If you are looking for a breed that commands respect, why not get a Bandog, Tosa, etc?


I like proving people wrong about the breed. I love the undying loyalty that they have for us and the incredible work ethic.
How can you “prove” anything if most American’s haven’t heard of the sport? Their “undying loyalty and work ethics” didn’t come from breeding to Shepard standards! Plus it only gets them titled as “sleazy” in the protection sport community.

The herders just like the work but they most certainly don't have the peopel aspect about them.
Because most in the protection sport community don’t like their dogs with the social drive of the APBT and consider it a “sleazy” dog!


I think we come from 2 different perspectives about the breed.
Guess so?


I do have a question for you. What in your opinion is the best breed test?
However a person believes they can keep the gameness in the breed!

[rocksteady]

Out of all the APBT’s that are used for said sport I’ve not seen one game-bred dog partaking in said competition. !

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=7484


Now you have seen one ;) Only one I know of.....

[bdub]

a good dog is protective over its owner by instinct if it feels the owner is in danger,i nkow this for a fact!so why the hell would you want to train them to be protective if tthey already are.hell killer is very protective of me ,for example,,i was walking him around one night so he could do his thing and not mes up the house,,as we were walking this dude pops up to my left about 10 feet away,killer seen the guy and went off,barking growling and trying to get some-ooh rah--anyway the guy stopped dead in his tracks,wouldnt move till i was well on my way,that night 3 college kids got robbed,,coincidence i think not,,,anyway im against training them for protection guard purposes because they already are protective

[catcher T]

a good dog is protective over its owner by instinct if it feels the owner is in danger,i nkow this for a fact!so why the hell would you want to train them to be protective if tthey already are.hell killer is very protective of me ,for example,,i was walking him around one night so he could do his thing and not mes up the house,,as we were walking this dude pops up to my left about 10 feet away,killer seen the guy and went off,barking growling and trying to get some-ooh rah--anyway the guy stopped dead in his tracks,wouldnt move till i was well on my way,that night 3 college kids got robbed,,coincidence i think not,,,anyway im against training them for protection guard purposes because they already are protective
Thats a good point, however, with a trained dog on command you can call him back if it turns out to be the nieghbors kid lurking around. I am just a firm believer in a well trained dog. I want my dogs going off of my head and not on their own. I give my dogs the watch command and that is what they will do, just watch. If someone comes closer then they will bark without moving from my side. That is enough to frighten anyone usually. I can give the attack command (never have unless someone was in a bite suit) then someone will get hurt, I would only do that if my life was threatened. The dogs at that point may act on their own.