Bite Inhibition Towards Humans

[Zoe]

Ok..... there is alot of talk about anti man biters in pits and I was always under the assumption that game breeders more than anyone {which is one of the main reasons I alway had such high respect for them} valued a rock solid tempermented dog. Now.... I got into a discussion with some dog men about dogs that will, say during a hog hunt, when pulled away from their hog, turn and bite the handler in an attempt to get the person to let go because they want to get back at the hog. Now this varied from the discussion of nips to full on hold and shakes. In my opinion I think a dog that will turn and try and bite the owner is unacceptable and I am not talking about a nippy puppy or whatever. Some people seemed to be amused by a dog like this and think it was full of "personality" while others, like me, thought it was unacceptable and should be culled. The defense of this was that a dog that is so game will do anything to get back at the job but from my point of view that should not involve biting a person. The true test of a dogs temperment, in my opinion, comes out during times when it is either VERY excited or under the stress of being held back from what it wants. I feel extreme bite inhibition towawds people is one of the things that separates a pit from all other breeds and why I love them so much. They can be warriors in the field but come home and sleep with the babies. I guess I was just curious where other people stood on this?

[miakoda]

discussion with some dog men about dogs that will, say during a hog hunt, when pulled away from their hog, turn and bite the handler in an attempt to get the person to let go because they want to get back at the hog.
As hard as it would've been, that dog would have never come back hiome. :(

[lil'lucybear]

i have to agree with you, it is not amusing at all when a dog bites for any reason, especially such a strong dog.

[Bluepit50]

If you had 2 game pits and 1 would bite back, that would just show that mentally its not stable!!! A dog who has control and a solid temperament is much more valuable than 1 that is just simply on a killing spree. A true game dog must posses all original traits, physically and mentally to be considered something great. Missing 1 key trait mentally is just like missing a trait physically, the 2 go together and a dog must be balanced from all areas, if not then it should not be breed. Thats my opinion

[nappydawg]

i would return home 1 dog short that shows instability in my mind

[Rockstar]

If you had 2 game pits and 1 would bite back, that would just show that mentally its not stable!!! A dog who has control and a solid temperament is much more valuable than 1 that is just simply on a killing spree. A true game dog must posses all original traits, physically and mentally to be considered something great. Missing 1 key trait mentally is just like missing a trait physically, the 2 go together and a dog must be balanced from all areas, if not then it should not be breed. Thats my opinionHow many times have you hunted a dog, Bp?
How about you, Nap?

[Kay]

I got into a discussion with some dog men about dogs that will, say during a hog hunt, when pulled away from their hog, turn and bite the handler in an attempt to get the person to let go because they want to get back at the hog.
I have personally dealt with this type of dog. She was not mine but I still have a deep scar on my wrist from her... After she bit me, she bit both of her owners individually, but in the same situation. I would never own a dog that had to be handled literally with gloves during hog hunting. Were she mine, she would have been shot between the eyes. They ended up selling her to other people who "didn't care" that she would bite when excited.

[nappydawg]

none but still if dog bites it ain't coming home from the walk excited or not any fool knows that rockstar

[miakoda]

I've been training my dogs for hog hunting since I was 18. My brothers are avid hunters as are there friends, so it works out well. But in all my years of doing this and out of all the dogs we've had with us, I've NEVER had one dog turn his aggression or aggravation on me or anyone else all b/c we pulled them a hog. My brother would've shot the dog before I could've even said anything. It's very true that many dogs don't want to let go of their prize (the hog), and it's not always easy to get the release, but I would never ever try to pull a dog off that would just as easily turn & teach me a lesson for bothering him. If that happens then shame on the dog. But doggie has gotta go. A friend did have to shoot his black mouth cur after it turned & attacked my older brother in the face when he was trying to get the dog off. He now has scars where even the experienced hands of the plastic surgeon couldn't make new again. (That dog was shot on the spot & as hard as it was for me to see Thor get killed, I watched my older brother almost loose part of his face so maybe I'm biased as I have seen the damage an irritated dog can do). There are way too many good dogs out there who won't turn around & transfer the aggression from animal to person to take a chance with one that might. JMO

[jawbones]

As hard as it would've been, that dog would have never come back hiome. :(
I totally agree with miakoda. I am just getting back into dogs after 16 years of only owning one at a time. Back in the day when I was handling, if one of my own dogs would have bitten me it would have been culled immediately. I still won't own a biter.

[Rockstar]

This is how I see it: when it comes to the actual hunt - if you don't have a scar or two, it's because
(a) You've never handled during a hunt
(b) You haven't handled long enough
or...
(c) You're an expert handler and always have been

As I've said before, if you hang around a firefight long enough, you're liable to catch a stray bullet.

[miakoda]

I'm not saying that I haven't been nicked or had a scratch or two from working a dog. That kind of stuff can happen anytime you put your hands in the way of a pit bulls mouth & the object it's holding onto. I've played tug-of-war with the dogs when one went to bite the rope in the moment & accidentally got part of my hand. It happens. But I will NOT tolerate a dog that full out turns to direct his aggression or irritation at me. For me to stick my hands in a dog's mouth & sustain a small scratch, nip, or whatever is one thing. For a dog to turn & take my hand or arm or even face into his mouth is another. I only have 2 hands & can't afford to lose any.

[Bluepit50]

How many times have you hunted a dog, Bp?
How about you, Nap?Ha ha! hunting a dog is no different then when a dog was matched, in the sense that it must have enough control to not bite at the owner or a ref for that matter, or any human nearby. It might not be a manbiter, but it lacks full control mentally and is not balanced as 1 should be. I am going hog hunting next month with a friend out at a ranch. The dogs we will bring are only the ones that show complete control and I know that none of mine will loose it mentally, that my friend has already been tested. Now what were you saying?;)

[nappydawg]

very true miakoda accidents happen but turning that aggresion and aggitation on a human shouldn't be tolerated at all

[Rockstar]

I'm not saying that I haven't been nicked or had a scratch or two from working a dog. That kind of stuff can happen anytime you put your hands in the way of a pit bulls mouth & the object it's holding onto. I've played tug-of-war with the dogs when one went to bite the rope in the moment & accidentally got part of my hand. It happens. But I will NOT tolerate a dog that full out turns to direct his aggression or irritation at me. For me to stick my hands in a dog's mouth & sustain a small scratch, nip, or whatever is one thing. For a dog to turn & take my hand or arm or even face into his mouth is another. I only have 2 hands & can't afford to lose any.I hear you, Mia. I had half my lower lip bitten away with one quick redirected bite a couple years ago. Fortunately the surgeon did a great job putting it back together. It happened during the intense heat of the moment, and the dog that bit me is one of the friendliest people-loving crybabies I've had the pleasure to work with. My right hand is still recovering from an incident a couple months ago where I had it a little too close to where it shouldn't have been. There are other scars, but none were the result of an "attack" or intended aggression. These dogs just tend to get worked up when it comes to doing what they were meant to do - supercharged. They become so focused on their prey that sometimes that focus turns to "tunnel vision" so to speak. These things aren't usually about instability of the dog, but the ability of the handler to make the dog aware of his/her position relative to the animal.

[Rockstar]

Bp, what do you suppose I'm talking about when I say "hunt?"

[Bluepit50]

Bp, what do you suppose I'm talking about when I say "hunt?"
Sorry, i'm just sleepy today, cull me and get it over with:confused:

[Zoe]

I totally understand an accident as I have been bitten more than once by my dogs, two particularly that have major tunnel vision for toys, I could only imagine if it was a hog, but all times it was about my hand being in the line of fire when they were going for the rope or the tire and they were actually going for the toy NOT my hand. But.... if say for instance my male, who is REALLY eager to scrap got into a fight and I used a breaking stick and pried him off and he TURNED AROUND and bit me either because he was pissed I removed him or he was so mentally out of control his tunnel vision blinded him to the fact that it was me behind him and he just redirected his bite on the easiest thing to grab which was me..... well he would be done. No matter how worked up he was I feel he is still required to have the presence of mind to know the difference between his intended prey and me! What I would expect him to do is whine and bark and pull and flail with all his efforts focused on getting back at the dog {which is what he generelly does anytime we are on a walk...... let me tell you he looks at me and cries like I am killing his child because I won't let him go!}.

[Rockstar]

Ever had two dogs trying to get at one through a fence, and turn their aggression toward each other because they can't get to it? Would you cull for that?

[Rockstar]

...because any dog that will, also holds the potential to inadvertently bite a hand or a leg or a face on redirect.

[nappydawg]

no thats dog aggresion no human bite

[Rockstar]

No, that's redirection, any way you look at it.:)

The difference is that most don't intentionally mean to redirect toward a human.
But it can and does happen - more frequently than most of us would like to admit.

[Bluepit50]

No, that's redirection, any way you look at it.:)

The difference is that most don't intentionally mean to redirect toward a human.
But it can and does happen - more frequently than most of us would like to admit.

I think I get what your saying, the moment when the dog is worked up and is really into it, there's that millisecond that's there when the dog responds to another intrusion just before its brain has time to send the message telling the dog what it is. Am I getting the right idea of what your talking about? If so it would seem that this could be alittle different then biting at the owner.

[GrCh_Jeff]

shit..lamo..my dog will try n bite me if he wnts to get em.not a viciouse bite more like a hrd nip sayin come on man let me at em..i have no prob with that.i dont think that means hes an unstable dog just 100%go get em,

[Zoe]

I am so disappointed to know this is accepted behaviour with alot of people. Miakoda..... I am glad there are some people that still hold our dogs up to the standards I admire and respect.

[Bluepit50]

Let me ask you all this, is this type of snapping response when a dog is heated up in any way related to food aggression???? (dog snapping at an intrusion when its really into its meal)

[GrCh_Jeff]

i assume Zoe that that was aimed at me..and no blue not food agression.

[Zoe]

i assume Zoe that that was aimed at me..and no blue not food agression.
It wasn't aimed at you in particular..... more just a general disappointment that this is accepted by some people. It makes me sad.....

[GrCh_Jeff]

rockstar i agree with you 100%

[Zoe]

Ever had two dogs trying to get at one through a fence, and turn their aggression toward each other because they can't get to it? Would you cull for that?
No I wouldn't cull for that but if I went there to break it up and they redirected on me.... in a heart beat. What ever happen to human aggession and animal aggression being worlds apart? To me a solid dog should be able to, even during "tunnel vision" retain it's bite inhibition towards people. Obviously there are dogs that do this..... so in a choice between one that does and one that doesn't..... why wouldn't you breed the one that doesn't?

[B]

Good posts Rock. There is a big difference from a dog that is an excited state that nips and a dog that attacks a human being. If a dog bit and shook or bit and held then he's gonna be culled. Only an experienced handler can make that decision and I don't think many folks posting here are that. You explained it in the best way you can and I think you did a good job. Rep points :cool:

B

[GrCh_Jeff]

well zoe i disagree..yes there are dogs that do that but the ones that dont seem to have a lil more drive

[GrCh_Jeff]

if a dog nips hes really bout it,, if he just comes off and doesnt nip to go back at em then that dog most likely aint as bout it as id like.

[GameKid16]

the way I see it, if a dog is human agressive, it should be culled, period!!! but human aggresive to me is when a dog will bite a human period, now when u get in the line of fire. that I cant answer, maybe if it was a vicious bite then it whould be culled, but just a minor bite or nip is diffrent.. but to Each is Own

I got a question though, my cousin dog petey, he was out side with all three of us on the lease, one of my cousin had him while I was watching, and my other cousin was getting on the mini motorcycle, petey lunge at the mini bike and bite the tire and then, he tryed to bite it agian, he grabbed my cousin brandon leg, his teeth penatrated and drew blood, but It wasnt a aggresive bite, the dog was going for the mini bike and got the leg as soon as he bite his leg he let go faster, than the speed of lite, and back off, when brandon went a sat down, I went and got him a bandage and petey has crawled to brandon low to the ground, in remorce like he was appoligizing, his tall was calm and his ears were real low, and is seemed as if he was saying sorry, because he started licking his face... this dog has never bittin anyone, and I belive to this day that this was a accident.

what do yall think???

[GrCh_Jeff]

lmao..shoulda kept the damn mini bike away from the dog.cousins fault,,lmao

[GameKid16]

lmao..shoulda kept the damn mini bike away from the dog.cousins fault,,lmao yea that was there fault I will admit, didnt know how he whould react..

[GrCh_Jeff]

lol..most dogs in general go after bikes though.

[Zoe]

I'd say it was an accident.....

[GrCh_Jeff]

kids fault..

[B]

I don't tolerate food aggression at all. My dogs know it is my food and I'll take it away or put my hand in it any time I would like to. I mess with young pups when they are just starting on food. Pull their ears, rub their backs, grab their legs, cover their mouth, put my hand over the food, etc etc to help teach them that it isn't a problem if I mess with their food. I have anyone around do the same thing so they don't just think its ok around me.

B

[B]

I'd say it was an accident.....
That is an accident but doing the same thing in a hunt is not an accident? That dog was driven towards the bike but accidently got the kid. If a dog is driven towards a hog and accidently gets the handler then it isn't an accident? You seem to be on both sides of the fence. Switch a hog with the mini bike and you might see our point...

B

[Bluepit50]

This is a hard decision, but i'll have to go with all these examples as accidents. As long as the dog immediately realizes that its a human getting in the middle of its drive, and as long as it shows remorse! Sometimes there's just too much going on during a scruf that the dog can't see everything clearly enough at first. As long as the dogs can see you approaching and you intervene correctly, then there should'nt be a problem. Proper handling is essential to prevent certain accidents, assuming your dog is mentally sound and controlled.

[rocksteady]

I. These things aren't usually about instability of the dog, but the ability of the handler to make the dog aware of his/her position relative to the animal.


Heres something to think about. Would anyone cull a puppy because it nipped? More than likely no, Why? Because the puppy is doing what is natural and needs to be taught that nipping is not acceptable. Pups learn self control

Now it could be possible that sometimes dogs who nip a little (and not redirecting) have not been taught self control or have none.. and were allowed to get away with it.. not a temperment issue but a behavor issue ..

However, I personally wouldnt keep a dog that turned or redirected its aggression towards a human. No way, no how.

[rocksteady]

This is a hard decision, but i'll have to go with all these examples as accidents. As long as the dog immediately realizes that its a human getting in the middle of its drive, and as long as it shows remorse! Sometimes there's just too much going on during a scruf that the dog can't see everything clearly enough at first. As long as the dogs can see you approaching and you intervene correctly, then there should'nt be a problem. Proper handling is essential to prevent certain accidents, assuming your dog is mentally sound and controlled.
Actually ,allthough a dog appears to show remorse, they arent. . they may think they did something wrong and more than likely are afraid to get punished.. Instinc tells them that "I did something wrong and I expect to be punished" It is called instictive drift..

but dogs in general do not have human emotions like we do (remorse, pay backs) Jealousy I wonder lol ..but usually what that boils down to is alpha dog -domiante dog..because being kick out of the pack would mean death in the wild (and dogs do retain some of these instincts..some higher than others)

[Zoe]

That is an accident but doing the same thing in a hunt is not an accident? That dog was driven towards the bike but accidently got the kid. If a dog is driven towards a hog and accidently gets the handler then it isn't an accident? You seem to be on both sides of the fence. Switch a hog with the mini bike and you might see our point...

B
You must misundertand me. I agree that an ACCIDENT during a hunt is understandable but if the dog INTENTIONALLY bit you in hopes of causing you to let go so it can return to the hog then I see that as a problem. It is all about the INTENTION of the dog or the inability for a dog to retain some sort of ability to differentiate between a target when they are all worked up. Getting bit in the line of fire is one thing...... having a dog REDIRECT its bite is another.

[Crash97]

I say that some dogs will nip the handler to get back to the fray. This is not the same in my mind as a man-biter. If I had one that was like this, I wouldn't cull it. Although it also wouldn't be the most pleasurable dog to hunt.

[Bluepit50]

Actually ,allthough a dog appears to show remorse, they arent. . they may think they did something wrong and more than likely are afraid to get punished.. Instinc tells them that "I did something wrong and I expect to be punished" It is called instictive drift..

but dogs in general do not have human emotions like we do (remorse, pay backs) Jealousy I wonder lol ..but usually what that boils down to is alpha dog -domiante dog..because being kick out of the pack would mean death in the wild (and dogs do retain some of these instincts..some higher than others)
My dogs better being showing remorse, lol. They know the back of my hand has been known to be game! They are so human like sometimes, I love em!

[B]

You must misundertand me. I agree that an ACCIDENT during a hunt is understandable but if the dog INTENTIONALLY bit you in hopes of causing you to let go so it can return to the hog then I see that as a problem. It is all about the INTENTION of the dog or the inability for a dog to retain some sort of ability to differentiate between a target when they are all worked up. Getting bit in the line of fire is one thing...... having a dog REDIRECT its bite is another.
Thanks for clearing that up... I think a lot of us are on the same page. I just think it is a touchy subject to go into detail about. ;) Thanks for explaining.

B

[Zoe]

I didn't mean to bring up a touchy subject to cause any discomfort. I guess it just really bummed me out.....

[Kay]

You must misundertand me. I agree that an ACCIDENT during a hunt is understandable but if the dog INTENTIONALLY bit you in hopes of causing you to let go so it can return to the hog then I see that as a problem. It is all about the INTENTION of the dog or the inability for a dog to retain some sort of ability to differentiate between a target when they are all worked up. Getting bit in the line of fire is one thing...... having a dog REDIRECT its bite is another.
This is how I feel too Zoe. I've been around long enough to know the difference between an accident and intentional bite (and I don't mean a little nip- a BITE.) I don't think it's even fair to "count" accidents in there, so I don't. Especially if it's my own fault. Some folks may be proud that their dogs are so driven, and that's fine. I'm just glad I will never have to hunt with them lol ;)

[Zoe]

My dogs better being showing remorse, lol. They know the back of my hand has been known to be game!lmao.... your friggin' funny blue.

[Rockstar]

I've just seen this kind of thing happen far too many times to say that it only happens with dogs with mental or behavioral issues. When you set a dog down to fight for life, you're taking a risk of catching a fang or two. Hell, I've seen refs in boxing matches get knocked out more than once.:) If you've never seen your dogs in a full-on battle, then I imagine that it would be pretty easy to say that a redirected bite is worth a bullet between the eyes. You may have an entire yard of the gamest most stable and gentle and well-behaved dogs you could ever want, but by the standards being discussed they may all be culls. You'll never know if you aren't accustomed to allowing them in situations where a blind redirect may happen to occur.

[nappydawg]

rockstar that is a good point so it all boils down to analyzing the situation and seeing if it was a "nip" or full out bite correct

[Rockstar]

I'd like to add: having spent my entire life around the gamedog, I've never even once been so much as nipped by one that wasn't in full swing with another.:D

[Rockstar]

Lol, Nap, with some of these dogs even a "nip" can sever a finger!

[jawbones]

I have never been bitten by a dog when handling. I can understand a nip or such, but in the first page of this thread someone was making excuses for dogs that turn, bite and shake their handler. I was not a perfect handler and still never got bit. Believe it or not. There is a difference between a misdirected bite, which I still to this day have never had, and a dog purposely turning and biting then shaking his owner. I'll not make excuses for that dog, there are too many good dogs out there to have one that will bite ya.

[Kay]

If you've never seen your dogs in a full-on battle, then I imagine that it would be pretty easy to say that a redirected bite is worth a bullet between the eyes.
I knew the risks before I ever went hunting, my point is How many times should it be accepted by one dog, even with different handlers? Every game dog doesn't redirect bites. And it would really depend on the situation, on whether I personally would cull. The dog I spoke of wasn't mine, wasn't my choice-just my opinion.

[GameKid16]

now that u put it like that rockstar

I guess I whouldnt cull unless the dog full blown attacked me, like u see on the news people getting killed by pitbulls that whould be culling time, or when the attack was server, I have been hit many times trying to break up fights at school and other places, but it was not intended, so I over look it

[miakoda]

My dogs better being showing remorse, lol. They know the back of my hand has been known to be game! They are so human like sometimes, I love em! As much as I hate to admit it, MANY of our problems with dogs in society stem from the fact that us humans have "humanized" our dogs. Do dogs feel pain? Yes. Do they feel lonely? Yes. Do they feel happy (secure is a better way of putting it)? Yes. Jealousy? Who knows. ;) But revengeful? Remorse? Guilt even? I say no, no, no. Rocksteady is right. When a dogs does something wrong & then quickly turns & begins licking you & wagging it's tell, it's not telling you "Oh my gosh! I'm sooo sorry...I'll never do it again!". It's saying, "Oh shit! I just pissed of the alpha. I might be kicked out of the pack...I'll be on my own....I'll starve with no food.....". It can be somewhat compared to an apology, but more often than not, the dog is only trying to avoid punishment, not appease you by "apologizing".

A couple of years ago I realized I had begun to "humanize" my dogs too much. I began having food aggression problems (only w/Wrigley who started that at 7 wks), dog spats here & there, & the dogs in general were not obeying as should. I had to look at what I was doing wrong, not just the dogs. That's when I realized I had to put them back as what they are.....dogs. I love my dogs (we don't have children yet). I enjoy their company...they play w/us, they cuddle w/us, but they are dogs & we are humans. Years later as I have bettered my training techniques & the way I approach my dogs (in general to everything they do), the better dogs they have become & the better our relationships w/them have become.

[HighRoller]

Excellent post, Mia!

[Bluepit50]

My dogs are actually people trapped inside, they told me before! lol

[Rockstar]

Excellent post indeed, Mia. When an animal is expected to behave like a human, failure is inevitable.