Blacknose from two rednoses?

[Rockstar]

The science of genetics implies that it's virtually impossible, but I know of a couple of very respected breeders, including Brian Bailey, who swear that they've had it happen. I'm quite curious if anyone here has ever witnessed such a case.

[miakoda]

It happens. Genetics goes farther back & if you actually sit down with all the parent dogs' genetic info & use a punnett square to figure out possibilities & percentages you'd be surprised at what mother nature can throw at you.

[The Watcher]

it happens, I've had black nose pups from two red nose parents. These two particular dogs were half brother/sister from same sire, also a red nose.

[SWAMPER]

We Had 2 Heavy Ofr Dogs Bereed Them Had 1 Solid Black Blk Nose And 8 Red W Red Noses.

[Rockstar]

Extremely interesting. Anyone else?

[the_flamingo]

If dog genetics are anything like rats, it makes perfect sence to me and would be easy to predict the probability of getting the red or black noses. Isn't the red-nose just a dilution of black? If it is a red-nose is quite a simple prediction, 'course you can never predict exactly what your going to get only the percentage. :D It is all the other dilutes that start to get me mixed up, in rats at least. :S

[waters]

I bred red nose and turned out with 7 rednose pups and 1 blacknose. you never know what you are going to get. I think that is what makes it fun sometimes.

[SWAMPER]

Funny Thing About Mine Was The Blk Nosed 1 Was The Only Good Dog In The 9 Pup Litter.

[JEEP]

hey my friend has a 2 rednose male/female that they breed and it came out 2 of the pups were blacknose... i dont know how this happened too though... i thought that since the dog wasnt paper it could happen because both of my friends dogs wasnt a paper dog...

[houstonapbt]

hey my friend has a 2 rednose male/female that they breed and it came out 2 of the pups were blacknose... i dont know how this happened too though... i thought that since the dog wasnt paper it could happen because both of my friends dogs wasnt a paper dog...It doesn't have anything to do with papers. It's just genetics. I always doubted this could happen though, since the red nose is a recessive gene. Since both parents have recessive genes for nose color, I would've thought it impossible to produce any black nosed offspring since the black color is the dominant. That's wierd. And to whoever mentioned the punnett square, if you do a punnett square for this, you would end up with 100% red nosed dogs. Red nosed dogs don't carry the black nosed gene, since you can see the red nose (phenotype), red nose being recessive, makes the genotype "bb". The genotype for a black nosed dog could be "Bb" or "BB", allowing the black nosed dogs to carry the "red nosed gene" hidden. Red nosed dogs when bred to red nosed dogs should only produce red nosed offspring. Maybe mother nature rules science out on this one? lol.

[JEEP]

yea i know its nothing that has to do with paper... that was just my guess when it happened... i also thought that he was going to end up with all rednose pups but he ended up with 2 blacknose dog... but hey as anyone ever see white tigerstriped pits... i mean they are all whit with very, very light gray stripes... the stipes were gray if you came up close but if you were a foot away you wouldnt notice it... thats what he had too with his litter...

[Texasbulldogs]

Houston: is correct in saying it is genetically impossible for two "red nosed" dogs, to produce "black nose" pups. Everyone I've personally seen that said their dog did, actually had a "black nosed" dog with a red tint to theid nose (which is not a red nose).

[SpencerPits]

yea i know its nothing that has to do with paper... that was just my guess when it happened... i also thought that he was going to end up with all rednose pups but he ended up with 2 blacknose dog... but hey as anyone ever see white tigerstriped pits... i mean they are all whit with very, very light gray stripes... the stipes were gray if you came up close but if you were a foot away you wouldnt notice it... thats what he had too with his litter...
Does he know for sure that no other males got to the female? I'm no genetics expert, but I would think it impossible to produce a black nosed dogs when there is no "black nosed genes" present. You can't just take 4 recessive genes and come up with a dominant one. At least as far as I know. If anyone knows different, please feel free to correct my thinking.

[TabDogs]

What if you switch it around ..What about 2 black nosed dogs producing a litter of red-nosed pups?

[Rockstar]

If both blacknoses carry the recessive rednose gene, then yes, rednoses can be produced, although I've found the usual ratio to be about 3 blacknoses for every rednose. I've never seen two blacknoses produce an entire litter of rednoses, but I'm sure it's possible.

[LadyRampage]

I actually have a black nose female that produces at least 3 red nose pups in every litter, no matter if the male has a black nose or rednose..

Imagine my surprise when on her (black black nose) first breeding we took her back to her father (black black nose) and she had 10 pups...1 chocolate rednose, 1 red rednose, 1 buckskin rednose, and 7 black black noses..lol

[dhcrew]

when you have a dog that is Br ( black nose carrying the red nose recessive) and a red nose (rr ) or there are dogs like this in the ped then it is possible for red noses to show up in a black nose breeding and vice versa, that APBT genetice site is a very educational read, i just finished it yesterday.

[Mudville_Monsta]

have any of you ever seen a red-rednose from two blues? i have and it was some scary S**t. it was for sale from a breeder here in ca. the dog was 8 months and there were pics of her with her litter, and allthrough the 8 months. ped and papered. looked like the dad but had a red nose. sire was a blue/blue nose and dam was a fawn blue. i thought they were scamming so i checked out their site and even called they own no reds and were just as amazed as me. the dog was from razors edge lines.

[SpencerPits]

Since red is a recessive color, I understand how a black nose dog can be carrying a 'hidden' red nose trait - what I don't understand is how 2 red nosed dogs (both rr) can produce a black nosed dog (BB or Br). That, and the odd brindling, is why I asked Jeep if it was possible another dog got to the bitch he mentioned.

[houstonapbt]

BB - Black phenotype and genotype (Dominant Black homozygous)
Bb - Black phenotype and both red and black genotype (Dominant Black heterozygous)
bb - Red phenotype and genotype (Recessive Red homozygous)
These are the possibilities for the nose color allele.

[Rockstar]

BB - Black phenotype and genotype (Dominant Black homozygous)
Bb - Black phenotype and both red and black genotype (Dominant Black heterozygous)
bb - Red phenotype and genotype (Recessive Red homozygous)
These are the possibilities for the nose color allele.
... but there is no denying the evidence which suggests the contrary.

[Rockstar]

There are documents describing instances when a human body could wonderfully do without brain. A baby was born in the New York hospital of Saint Vincent in 1935; he did all things that babies usually do: slept, ate and even cried. When the baby died, doctors were surprised with the results of autopsy: there was no brain inside the cranium. The incredible instance was registered as a scientific mystery.



Famous German neurosurgeon Professor Haufland described a case of a patient stricken by paralysis; the man was of sound mind until his death. At that time doctors had no equipment to look inside the patient's head to discover the fact, but even if they had such an opportunity, they would have seen nothing inside the cranium. When the cranium was dissected after his death, Professor Haufland discovered spinal liquid instead of brain there.


In 1940, a 14-year-old boy was delivered to a Bolivian hospital of Nikolay Ortiz, his diagnose was brain-growth. The patient complained of severe headache that became especially painful in the evening. Soon the boy died, and doctors even had no time to perform an operation on him. What doctors discovered after the dissection wasn't certainly human brain. A giant abscess filled almost the whole of the cranium, which made doctors hesitate whether the medical science was precise at all.

[Rockstar]

Just goes to show... there are certainly exceptions to scientific rule. :)

[dora]

hay rockstar where did you get that article from on the baby with no brains???

[SpencerPits]

All I can say is WOW! I'd like to find out where you saw the artilces too.

[Rockstar]

http://wintersteel.homestead.com/Life_Without_Brain.html

[dora]

thank you!!!......also that is one hell of a weird site...my hubby will appriecate it....thanks again!!

[SpencerPits]

thank you!!!......also that is one hell of a weird site...my hubby will appriecate it....thanks again!!
What she said. :)

[The Watcher]

whoa, thats some feaky shi-!!!

[Rockstar]

Something I'd like to add: I read a book written by a sniper in the Viet Nam conflict who told how he would quite literally blow the head off his mark, but sometimes after the body fell, it would jump right back up and continue the charge or run away... headless.
I've also read historical literature which documented cases where after someone was beheaded by axe or guillotine, the vocal chords in the neck would, on occasion, continue to scream for several seconds.
Eerie, huh?

Nothing to do with genetics, but my point is that science isn't always 100% accurate.

[Mr.Billfold]

For its all around weird goodness.....bump

[Bullyson]

Ive heard of red nosed dogs producing blue dogs...I would be a mad motherf**ker if it happened to me, I can tell you that!

[Patch O' Pits]

BB - Black phenotype and genotype (Dominant Black homozygous)
Bb - Black phenotype and both red and black genotype (Dominant Black heterozygous)
bb - Red phenotype and genotype (Recessive Red homozygous)
These are the possibilities for the nose color allele. This is what I thought... but then if you have a sire and dam with bb how can they possibly make Bb

I know Bb X Bb can make

and BB X Bb make red

... but there is no denying the evidence which suggests the contrary. which then would lead me to believe that red nose gene is actually not "totally" or "completely" a true recessive gene if that makes sense LOL

Just trying to figure it out better

[monsta409]

it's happen to me also had 2 rednose and spat out a couple blknose's....my girl sadie spat out 2 blue nose,fawn & blu/wht even her mother spat out some blu also but they werent no bullies like you see 2day they were regular sized pit's i think i have some picks at home ill check

[PirbulBongo]

Well im not sure but i've read that 2 red nosed dogs cant produce any black nose dog and ADBA does not register those dogs because its genetically not possible. But reading those old post is sure interesting :)

[scratchin dog]

Two "true" red nose dogs cannot produce a black nose. Some people may confuse a chocolate rednose for a true rednose. The chocolate rednose is a mutation of black and can produce any color.

[bahamutt99]

There was someone on another board a while back who bred two rednoses and got some fuzzy black and brindle (black-nosed) puppies. Everyone on the other board was suggesting that she get the pups DNAed. (She disappeared, so who knows what happened.) I think if I ever bred two rednoses and got black-nosed puppies, I'd definitely be DNAing the pups.

[Mott's APBT's]

i know a lot of you say this is impossible but ive most definatley seen it happen.

[misterdogman]

If the gene is there at least once in the dogs history it is possible for a pup to either get it or not...it is also possible that none of its grandparents traits or all of them and so on are passed on. But once ANY gene is present in a dogs code whether recessive or dominant it is possible for the pup to come out with it... as long as both of the parents have that trait on at least one of there sides in their pedigree.
Example...say you have a male and female rednose dog that came from a black nose brown colored sire and a red nose red colored dame but they both have red noses when their born....if they are bred they do and can have the possibility of having either color noses in a mix like black and red or all the same color since it was present in their ancestors. If it was NEVER present it cant happen.

[monsta409]

i know a lot of you say this is impossible but ive most definatley seen it happen.i second that

[iron_lady]

Do you have the dna proof on those black nose pups from red nose dogs? Seriously,, I honestly would love to see it.

I have been dealing with bloodlines that are red nose (from the OFRN strain) and to this day I nor anyone whom also deals with these lines that I personally know or deal with has ever seen a black nose pup produced from 2 red nose parents, and these people are 2nd and 3rd generation doggers... who got their start back before many of us were even born. I would think that if anyone would see this miracle, it would be someone who has based thier entire bloodline off the ofrn strain or bred nothing but red to red nose dogs (which stemmed from dogs that also carried black nose genes (OFR's)) and has been breeding selectively for x amount of time, not just 10 years or so. they arent getting black nose pups from 2 red nose parents.. what makes these dogs you've seen different? Why them and not these other dogs?

I have seen paper hung dogs on peds online claim black from 2 reds ...

im not saying odd things cant happen but until I see the dna proof, I have doubts! Perhaps it really is a throw back to some black nose dog or perhaps the bloodlines were heavy black nose (I have red nose dogs out of a red/ black breeding, when those were bred to a red nose they produced nothing but red and so on and so on..never yet have I gotten a black nose pup from 2 reds and my dogs lines arent 100% red nose dogs)


Post pics and peds if you have them please..

[Mr.Billfold]

Once a dominant gene is lost, it is not available to ANY further generations, bottom line, right?

If I take all the spades out of a deck, no matter how many times u shuffle the remaining cards, you wont hit a spade.

[Mott's APBT's]

Do you have the dna proof on those black nose pups from red nose dogs? Seriously,, I honestly would love to see it.

I have been dealing with bloodlines that are red nose (from the OFRN strain) and to this day I nor anyone whom also deals with these lines that I personally know or deal with has ever seen a black nose pup produced from 2 red nose parents, and these people are 2nd and 3rd generation doggers... who got their start back before many of us were even born. I would think that if anyone would see this miracle, it would be someone who has based thier entire bloodline off the ofrn strain or bred nothing but red to red nose dogs (which stemmed from dogs that also carried black nose genes (OFR's)) and has been breeding selectively for x amount of time, not just 10 years or so. they arent getting black nose pups from 2 red nose parents.. what makes these dogs you've seen different? Why them and not these other dogs?

I have seen paper hung dogs on peds online claim black from 2 reds ...

im not saying odd things cant happen but until I see the dna proof, I have doubts! Perhaps it really is a throw back to some black nose dog or perhaps the bloodlines were heavy black nose (I have red nose dogs out of a red/ black breeding, when those were bred to a red nose they produced nothing but red and so on and so on..never yet have I gotten a black nose pup from 2 reds and my dogs lines arent 100% red nose dogs)


Post pics and peds if you have them please..

What a coincidence. I run red devil/Loposay dogs not from Norrod. The black nose pups in question were from a stud of the red devil lineage bred to and extremely heavy Jeep/Red Boy/heinzl bitch.There was a litter of 8. 5 had red noses. There was a seal and whit bitch with a black nose. And a male and femal that were white /red with black noses. The grand sire one the top was seal and white and the grand dam on top was buckskin both with black noses. So thats second generation for the pups.The pups hold 25% from each of the the grand dam and grandsire on top.Thats where the black noses came from.
The pups are littermates to this dog.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=223348

On another note,ive read articles from the colbys stating they have had red nosed pups which are culled because thats something they believe is a defect. They have also had mereles and Black and tans.

[fastjesse]

My dog's sire has a black nose and was from a brother sister breeding of two red nose dogs. It happens. My girl look just like her grand parents who are mostly OFRN blood. Go figure . Check out my Gallery. My new pup has a black nose and is out of Lil Buck and a Patrick bred red, red nose dog.

[bahamutt99]

On another note,ive read articles from the colbys stating they have had red nosed pups which are culled because thats something they believe is a defect. They have also had mereles and Black and tans.
Can you link? I'd be interested in reading about them and merle dogs.

[Stillwater]

If it DID happen, it would be a genetic mutation, and no registry would register it without DNA.

[yellaman420]

Ive heard of this happening only one time before. It was two reds, one was a red brindle that was down from a family of r/rn the other had mostly reds but also reds w/ black nose. The funny part was the pup ended up brindle w/ black nose. He looked just like his folks build as well as his siblings, just his color was way off.

[Atwater27]

hoCan you link? I'd be interested in reading about them and merle dogs.Whoa!

I heard of not liking the color due to prefferrence but I've neer heard of such a famous breeder thinking it was a defect. If anyone can enlighten me to where I can read more about this I would greatly be appreciative.

[Mott's APBT's]

hoWhoa!

I heard of not liking the color due to prefferrence but I've neer heard of such a famous breeder thinking it was a defect. If anyone can enlighten me to where I can read more about this I would greatly be appreciative.
Lots of old timers as well as not s old school people think red nose dogs are curs.

[bahamutt99]

There are defects linked to merle, like when you breed two merles together and get lethal white. Anyway, I'd really be interested in reading that article. If the Colbys were getting merles way back when, it kind of disproves what's been said about the color popping up in the last 20 years.

[Bullyson]

Thats pretty damn funny!Lots of old timers as well as not s old school people think red nose dogs are curs.

[Mott's APBT's]

Thats pretty damn funny!
Ive heard tons of people say they wont own a red nose dog because they think theyre curs.Had people tell me i have "Rednose curs".Although they arent curs. You may not have heard it but it is said .

[redripper]

Two "true" red nose dogs cannot produce a black nose. Some people may confuse a chocolate rednose for a true rednose. The chocolate rednose is a mutation of black and can produce any color.
I'm not sure I know what a chocolate red nose is. Can you post a pic. Are the rednoses in my gallery "true" rednoses. I'm not being an ass or anything. I really am curious.

[ColbyDogs]

On another note,ive read articles from the colbys stating they have had red nosed pups which are culled because thats something they believe is a defect. They have also had mereles and Black and tans.
I heard straight from Louis that there is no such thing as a red nosed Colby dog not because he culld them either but just that his dogs do not produce red nosed dogs.
The only dogs we ever had with red noses were from cross breedings with the dogs only being half Colby. Out of all my years owning Colby dogs I have never seen a red nose pop up unless it was from a cross.

As for the Black & Tans, he hasn't seen one of those in over 60 years.

[bahamutt99]

Colby, did you ever hear about a merle Colby dog? I guess I should get my answer from the horse's mouth, since I'm being ignored by the one who said it. ;)

[ColbyDogs]

Colby, did you ever hear about a merle Colby dog? I guess I should get my answer from the horse's mouth, since I'm being ignored by the one who said it. ;)
He had a dog named Merle back in the 1940's, not sure on the Merle coloring tho. He has in the past had merle dogs but they were not part of any breeding program that I am aware of. He is not quick to cull a pup either, my last male was a kink tailed dog that he gave me as a gift. He knew I wouldn't breed him and that i would give him a good home and that we did. Next time I sit with him I'll ask him about merles and the dog "Merle" , though I think we discussed it before and I do not recall him being merle in color.

[fastjesse]

This litter was out of two red nose dogs. I believe the sire was a chocolate red nose though.

[bahamutt99]

He had a dog named Merle back in the 1940's, not sure on the Merle coloring tho. He has in the past had merle dogs but they were not part of any breeding program that I am aware of. He is not quick to cull a pup either, my last male was a kink tailed dog that he gave me as a gift. He knew I wouldn't breed him and that i would give him a good home and that we did. Next time I sit with him I'll ask him about merles and the dog "Merle" , though I think we discussed it before and I do not recall him being merle in color.
I remember that dog. I think he was a fawn color, though. My books are already packed up, and I can find the dog's ped online, but no pictures. Anyway, I emailed Lou and asked him directly, so if I hear something back, I'll post it up. (BTW, my first Pit Bull-type dog was a fat brindle girl with a kinked tail. That's another genetic flaw that I've always been curious about.)

[ColbyDogs]

(BTW, my first Pit Bull-type dog was a fat brindle girl with a kinked tail. That's another genetic flaw that I've always been curious about.)
Its not so bad on females but on males it can be hell. Alot of genetic flaws can accompany a kink tail,curved spines, hernia and missing testicles are amoung the few. Lou likes the kink tails for thier spirit but will not breed them. Before I got my last male Julio Ceasar Chavas was the last person to get a kink tail from Lou. They are not too common from the Colby line but they do pop up from time to time.

[scratchin dog]

This litter was out of two red nose dogs. I believe the sire was a chocolate red nose though.yep there ya go..chocolate rednoses. Those dark brown pups with the rednoses. If you breed those together you could get a black nose pup. This is part of the reason people keep saying their rednoses had blacknose pups..cause they dont really know the color of their dog to begin with. The only other reason is that another male got to their female.

[bahamutt99]

Here's Lou Colby's response on the merle issue:

Hello Lindsay...
Right from the "horses mouth" let me assure you their have never been any "merle" Colby dogs.
The only association we ever had with the word merle.......was a dog I named Colby's Merle, a beautiful red and white
female. I named her after Merle Oberon a famous movie actress in my day. Colby's Merle is pictured in the book that I wrote.

[ColbyDogs]

Here's Lou Colby's response on the merle issue:I didn't think Merle was merle in color. As for the no merle colored dogs, I know I got a picture somewhere that the dog looks merle and thats where I came up with him having a merle colored dog. I have alot of pictures of his dogs, everytime I go I bring my camera.