Origin of the APBT

[circlekpits]

Here is a question I thought I would throw out there and see what kind of replies and answers I would get.

So what was the actual breed of dogs that were thrown together to get the modern pit bull?

I just wanted to see what would come of this thread. I am not sure what the answers will be but would like to know some of the knowledge of the people visiting game-dog.com.

[lambchop11078]

Here is a question I thought I would throw out there and see what kind of replies and answers I would get.

So what was the actual breed of dogs that were thrown together to get the modern pit bull?

I just wanted to see what would come of this thread. I am not sure what the answers will be but would like to know some of the knowledge of the people visiting game-dog.com.


My opinion...

The English and Irish immigrants brought their bulldogs and "half & half" with them to America. The "half & half" were quite small, some were around 15 lbs while others were around 40 lbs. The immigrants found these "half & half" didn't quite cut it in America as working dogs so they bred them up in size with larger bulldogs and terriers thus creating the APBT. So to answer you question, I'd like to say these breeds were used:

Staffordshire Bull Terrier aka "half & half" to give the gameness & tenacity
Bulldog to give the gameness
English White Terrier to give tenacity & fiery spirit
Black & Tan Terrier to give tenacity & fiery spirit
Whippet to give wind

It's really tough to know what was used since a lot of the breeding was a secret recipe.

[JCleve86]

I'm a fan of the "original bulldog" camp. I don't buy the "half and half" theory. Pit bulls are mostly original bulldog (from at least a few hundred years ago...those used in bull-baiting and other baiting sports that the EB people claim THEIR dog did (yeah frickin right)). There was some terrier added in when the bulldog started to be used for dog fighting and ratting, but not much, and pit bulls certainly aren't half terrier.

As has been said, breeding programs were guarded and kept pretty secret, so we'll never really know for sure. Back then they bred for type (scent hound rather than Bloodhound, Coonhound, Black and Tan, etc) so it's unlikely that any specific breed as we know it today contributed to the early history of the breed.

[lambchop11078]

I'm a fan of the "original bulldog" camp. I don't buy the "half and half" theory. Pit bulls are mostly original bulldog (from at least a few hundred years ago...those used in bull-baiting and other baiting sports that the EB people claim THEIR dog did (yeah frickin right)). There was some terrier added in when the bulldog started to be used for dog fighting and ratting, but not much, and pit bulls certainly aren't half terrier.

As has been said, breeding programs were guarded and kept pretty secret, so we'll never really know for sure. Back then they bred for type (scent hound rather than Bloodhound, Coonhound, Black and Tan, etc) so it's unlikely that any specific breed as we know it today contributed to the early history of the breed.
Hahaha, the English Bulldog. They can't walk 30 feet without heavy breathing. I agree you there's more "old" bulldog blood in the dog than terrier. When you compare the APBT and Staffordshire Bull Terrier with older drawings of bulldogs, they look very similar. The biggest difference you'll see is the undershot jaw in the drawings which is a dominate characteristic of a bulldog. Where did the undershot bite go? The UKC and ADBA standard for an APBT suggests a scissor bite which is very common on terriers. So there was terrier blood that was used to get this characteristic during the beginning of it's creation. But the most important characteristic an APBT is known for is gamness which it got from the "old" bulldog.

[rocksteady]

they used the Bull and Terrier ( the dog that became known as the Staffordshire Bull terrier ..but it wasnt recognized as a purebred until 1935 and the offical name came around ..so they have probably changed a bit and are not the same dogs that were used in the making of the APBT)

they used bulldogs that were already here from the colonization of the Americas ( a type of bull and terrier, larger boned than its english cousin)

Large bulldogs from the old bull baiting days and the 19th century fighting bulldogs (Blue Poll is a famous dog imported to scotland) and certain terriers like
The black and tan, English White,
then someone came up with the idea of breeding the larger bulldogs to the smaller Terriers adn thus came the Bull and Terrier..

but others were also used to refine and fine tune the modern day APBt..such as the OFR (Old Family reds) from Ireland

[JCleve86]

Depending on the line, you can still see the old bulldog underbite. It's not nearly as overdone as that found in the pathetic excuse of a dog known as the EB (sorry, I just hate what has been done to that poor breed), but you'll still find an undershot dog here and there. I think there were also plenty of old bulldogs that weren't undershot...just looking at the variety of pictures/paintings of old bulldogs can attest to that. But yes, I won't argue that there wasn't terrier influence...I just don't think there was as much as many people say there was.

As a side note, The Staffy Bull wasn't recognized in our country until the 1970's, which is when the official name came to be after conflict/debate with the Amstaff (which also got it's official name at that time) and Bull Terrier people. Rocksteady, I would argue that the first three dogs you listed (what came to be the SBT, the bulldogs already in America, and the bigger bullbaiting bulldogs) are all one and the same. What do you think the difference is? (Obviously other than size...you can take a single breed and breed it to look differently, which accounts for the variation in size that remains in our breed to this day).

[rocksteady]

the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. .which in england became a recognized purebred in 1935'..later in the americas..is what I was referring to

Original Bulldogs were large dogs..and there was the oddity kept for pets (the pushed in nose type) ..
but in answering your question..maybe they were the same "breed" but certainly different strains.. and since most bulldogs /terriers back then were family bred, the strains were more like different breeds (take for example the OFR) all bred or kept for different purposes.

As most agree..when dogs are bred for different purposes, they are no longer the same breed of dog. In your view then, the AM Staff would be considered a srain of APBT and thus the same breed.. get where I'm going??

Staffordsire Bull Terriers again were not recognized as a pure bred until 1935 when they became accpeted into England's kennel club. .as you said later in the US. Up until 1935, no set standard was in place .

But I guess we'll never really know 100% how these dogs came about..

[Jenn]

But I guess we'll never really know 100% how these dogs came about..
I'll have to agree with you on that for sure! Bored today, so been reading and looking things trying to pass the time at work. I started noticing that you can't seem to find an "universal answer" for this question. Quite frustrating to follow and understand, if no one ever agrees. Guess you just have no other choice but to make your own decision/opinion??

Anyway, I keep seeing the "English White Terrier" mentioned and that it is extinct, though a apparently a descendant of many breeds. Which is all I can find on it, along with plenty of pictures of the Manchester Terrier and other breeds. I want to see the English White Terrier's picture, anyone?

Yes I'm aware of the age of this thread, but think it's interesting and maybe someone else has something to say by now? ;)

[hillbilly]

here's what i could find.
http://www.encore-editions.com/dogs/dog2/thm_alfredf.depradesoldenglishwhiteterrierc1297.jp g

[B]

I'm a fan of the "original bulldog" camp. I don't buy the "half and half" theory. Pit bulls are mostly original bulldog (from at least a few hundred years ago...those used in bull-baiting and other baiting sports that the EB people claim THEIR dog did (yeah frickin right)). There was some terrier added in when the bulldog started to be used for dog fighting and ratting, but not much, and pit bulls certainly aren't half terrier.

As has been said, breeding programs were guarded and kept pretty secret, so we'll never really know for sure. Back then they bred for type (scent hound rather than Bloodhound, Coonhound, Black and Tan, etc) so it's unlikely that any specific breed as we know it today contributed to the early history of the breed.
I agree. I've seen tapestries from the early 14th century with dogs that appear very much like today's pitbulls. I won't deny there might be some small crosses but overall I think the pitbull is a closer example of the original bulldog than anything out there right now.

Regards,

B

[Jenn]

Thanks for sharing the picture you found Hillbilly! Not what I expected at all, but I appreciate it. :)

[hillbilly]

yeah i agree,antime

[rocksteady]

here's something to think about:

as having an "english bulldog" letme tell you something about thier "bite"
A dog with a large underbite cannot exactly BITE and latch on .... since their upper jaw and lower jaw do not form a scissor bite, they have a hard time grabbing hold of something that doesnt want to be ( lol mine would gum my arm to death lol ..and they were highly active EBs..not lazy couch potatoes)

the pushed in nose casues many breathing problems.. the "folklore" says that the pushed in noses allowed them to hold on to a bulls nose and breath ..but yet an APBT has a longer nose and can hold on to something just fine withou letting go to breath

the over all health of an english bulldog is horrible.. and because people want them wider, fatter, stockier, shorter, more pronounced featuers... (allthough I can say, my one female taught a few apbts some finer points of taking out legs :D)

SO IMO .... English Bulldogs are a product of breeding for looks rather than work ..and todays (sorry..even OEB) have more pronouces features than their original family tree..
IMO Boxers look more like original bulldogs than OEB or EB ....

[Iron Mike]

My opinion...

The English and Irish immigrants brought their bulldogs and "half & half" with them to America. The "half & half" were quite small, some were around 15 lbs while others were around 40 lbs. The immigrants found these "half & half" didn't quite cut it in America as working dogs so they bred them up in size with larger bulldogs and terriers thus creating the APBT. So to answer you question, I'd like to say these breeds were used:

Staffordshire Bull Terrier aka "half & half" to give the gameness & tenacity
Bulldog to give the gameness
English White Terrier to give tenacity & fiery spirit
Black & Tan Terrier to give tenacity & fiery spirit
Whippet to give wind

It's really tough to know what was used since a lot of the breeding was a secret recipe.What about the Germans, French, Italians and the Spanish?
First there was no such breed until 1935 known as Staffordshire Bull Terrier.
How could the APBT come from them when they were a recognized breed already for almost 40 years?
They had been in the US since the 1700's.
We all know the APBT is a bulldog breed or are they the closest living thing to the original?
English White Terrier? You are confusing the APBT with the English Bull Terrier.
Maybe black & tan terrier but you would see more black & tans if that was the case. How about the Mastiff from Germany? Or the buckskin Mastiff from France?
Whippet? LOL LOL This breed was created from game stock. :)

[Iron Mike]

they used the Bull and Terrier ( the dog that became known as the Staffordshire Bull terrier ..but it wasnt recognized as a purebred until 1935 and the offical name came around ..so they have probably changed a bit and are not the same dogs that were used in the making of the APBT)

they used bulldogs that were already here from the colonization of the Americas ( a type of bull and terrier, larger boned than its english cousin)

Large bulldogs from the old bull baiting days and the 19th century fighting bulldogs (Blue Poll is a famous dog imported to scotland) and certain terriers like
The black and tan, English White,
then someone came up with the idea of breeding the larger bulldogs to the smaller Terriers adn thus came the Bull and Terrier..

but others were also used to refine and fine tune the modern day APBt..such as the OFR (Old Family reds) from IrelandI believe you are somewhat close but I don't think you are right.
THE APBT and the SBT did have some of the same stock from the county of Staffordshire but I believe there are a lot more different fighting dogs from Europe then just these, in the APBT. The SBT is more direct desendent then the APBT.
One, it is a known fact the English Bulldog was NOT the bulldog used. Besides as I said before the APBT has been in the US a long time. Why breeding were kept secret is because most common people didn't know how to read and write! There was no BIG secret breeding programs going on back then. Although we would like to add this mystery to the mix. LOL

One I also forgot was the Scottish dogs. Like I said before, the White Terrier was used in making the English Bull Terrier, not the APBT.

[Iron Mike]

Depending on the line, you can still see the old bulldog underbite. It's not nearly as overdone as that found in the pathetic excuse of a dog known as the EB (sorry, I just hate what has been done to that poor breed), but you'll still find an undershot dog here and there. I think there were also plenty of old bulldogs that weren't undershot...just looking at the variety of pictures/paintings of old bulldogs can attest to that. But yes, I won't argue that there wasn't terrier influence...I just don't think there was as much as many people say there was.

As a side note, The Staffy Bull wasn't recognized in our country until the 1970's, which is when the official name came to be after conflict/debate with the Amstaff (which also got it's official name at that time) and Bull Terrier people. Rocksteady, I would argue that the first three dogs you listed (what came to be the SBT, the bulldogs already in America, and the bigger bullbaiting bulldogs) are all one and the same. What do you think the difference is? (Obviously other than size...you can take a single breed and breed it to look differently, which accounts for the variation in size that remains in our breed to this day).
I believe the undershot mouth comes from Mastiffs. All breeds of dogs come from mastiffs and then bulldogs and hounds. Crossing hounds and bulldogs is how you got terriers.

The fact is SBT was recognized by the Kennels Club of England in 1935. It wasn't until the 1970's that it was recognized by AKC.
In 1936 the breed was recognized as Staffordshire Terrier with AKC. In 1972 it was changed to American Staffordshire Terrier so it wasn't confused with the SBT.

[whiteyransom]

yeah, i'm not so sure about the "secrect breeding" thing. it was just done by the people to get the best dogs they could get ,,and get what they wanted. and like I>M> mentioned,,alot of folks back then couldn't read or write,,and if you really think about it,,they probably didn't even speak the same languages at the time. with all the immigration going on. the dog sport was a hobby,,and at times a lifestyle to make money. so some people were secretive,,i'm assuming. if they had a good thing going. these same things went on into the not so far past. some folks kept the breedings of particular dogs hidden so people wouldn't know who produced what,,or would think another dog produced a litter.

[Iron Mike]

the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. .which in england became a recognized purebred in 1935'..later in the americas..is what I was referring to

Original Bulldogs were large dogs..and there was the oddity kept for pets (the pushed in nose type) ..
but in answering your question..maybe they were the same "breed" but certainly different strains.. and since most bulldogs /terriers back then were family bred, the strains were more like different breeds (take for example the OFR) all bred or kept for different purposes.

As most agree..when dogs are bred for different purposes, they are no longer the same breed of dog. In your view then, the AM Staff would be considered a srain of APBT and thus the same breed.. get where I'm going??

Staffordsire Bull Terriers again were not recognized as a pure bred until 1935 when they became accpeted into England's kennel club. .as you said later in the US. Up until 1935, no set standard was in place .

But I guess we'll never really know 100% how these dogs came about..No I hate to disagree with you my friend but the original Bulldog was used as a kill dog...aka killer hound. And did not have a pushed in nose.

BTW there was a standard set for the SBT and in fact it was much smaller then the dogs from the county of Staffordshire. Over the years the standard has got even smaller.

[Iron Mike]

here's something to think about:

as having an "english bulldog" letme tell you something about thier "bite"
A dog with a large underbite cannot exactly BITE and latch on .... since their upper jaw and lower jaw do not form a scissor bite, they have a hard time grabbing hold of something that doesnt want to be ( lol mine would gum my arm to death lol ..and they were highly active EBs..not lazy couch potatoes)

the pushed in nose casues many breathing problems.. the "folklore" says that the pushed in noses allowed them to hold on to a bulls nose and breath ..but yet an APBT has a longer nose and can hold on to something just fine withou letting go to breath

the over all health of an english bulldog is horrible.. and because people want them wider, fatter, stockier, shorter, more pronounced featuers... (allthough I can say, my one female taught a few apbts some finer points of taking out legs :D)

SO IMO .... English Bulldogs are a product of breeding for looks rather than work ..and todays (sorry..even OEB) have more pronouces features than their original family tree..
IMO Boxers look more like original bulldogs than OEB or EB ....
Now I have to really disagree with you. In all the years I been around gamedogs, I have yet seen a dog kill another one with the end of their mouth. Scissor bite has nothing to do with the price of tea in china!

The teeth at the end of their mouth does NOTHING for biting! It has to do with how the cutters line up together for holding on and as far as bite, it comes from the length of their muzzle.
BITING POWER COMES FROM THE BACK OF THE MOUTH, NOT THE FRONT!!!

Taffy lost a cutter at one year old and still made Gr.Ch.....

[rocksteady]

Im just saying with the huge underbite with the EB, they have to really get soemthing into their mouths before they can "bite" it/..not that they dont have a strong bite or that they bite with their front..but where as say a dog with a normal type bite doesnt need much to grab something... (maybe saaying the EB cant really nip ..they take a bigger bite would have been better)

[ghost 1]

chaiwawa and rott,,,j/k english brought them over and breed to larger bull terrier