Breeding practices (pre class training)

[oldslowblue]

Ok. First off, I didn't start this thread to insult or belittle anyone. Nor is this an expression of cockiness or professionalism. I would just like to take this time to explain what I have learned about breeding dogs the past 14 years,with the addition of my girlfriend being a student in Animal medicines specifically genetics. My knowledge first hand comes from experience as well as facts from books, magazines, and vets. (animal specialist). This is just an introduction to what will turn out to be a full discussion to every aspect of breeding the American Pitbull Terrier. One may say this thread is going to be opinionated, while others will find what I try and explain to be very useful. My first introduction is a question I would like to shed light on that TRipple J mentioned in a previous post. He was wondering why when he bred two quality bulldogs together, and in the first breeding it was great! Well rounded animals that were second to none. However, int he second breeding, he didnt get squat. You would have to look deeper into the situation. A dogs genetic makeup starts from 78 chromosomes. The mother and the father account for 39 a piece from the start. Keep in mind that each chromosome carries various genes that are generated from the ancestor dating back to the fourth generation. This is what is called a gene pool. In Tripps case, the dogs in the first breeding paired good genes, or the very good genes from both families of dogs. A better way to explain would be like a bag of skittles with all sorts of colors. If there were 100 skittles and say 60 different colors...and I told you to pair 10 different sets, the results may lead to redxblue yelloxpurple redxred orangexpink. Long story short, this is how the makings of pups take place. All though they each pull from the same common gene pool, no two genetic make ups are exaclty alike. Their are just too many possibilities for this to prove true. The second time J attempted this breeding, the paired genes (combinations) just didnt click like the first breedings did. I tried to put this in a nutshell. There may be questions, but I will have answers, as I know this may be unclear. There are many aspects when it comes to breeding, and the more you know about genetics, the better off you will breed in my opinion. But, on the same, a wise dogmen once called the breeding game a "CRAP SHOOT", and that's exactly what it is. Even understanding genectics can't always prove to produce the BEST DOG OF ALL TIME. Sometimes, it simply falls on luck of the draw. FIS BLUE!

[CLKENNELS]

Just the kind of thread I've been waiting for...thanx.... Now, was this a repeat breeding that was done or was it a best to best breeding of the offspring... I know when my uncle and aunt breed,they may breed the same pair 4or5 times and more often than not 1 of those litters may not be worth sh*t and they get culled.. Even though we all know its a crap shoot some with more experience can shed light on how to get the best results.. Also if two dogs are from scatter bred lines and it was a best to best breeding,that first litter could have got the good genes from the good dogs and the next litter coulda gotten the unwanted genes from the lesser quality dogs...

[scratchin dog]

That's why all good breeders "stack the deck" with quality line bred animals. To increase their chances of getting more of the same.

[backyardspecial]

General Biology 101. Thats why in order to get a good chance of breeding dogs that carry much of their parents traits breeders keep the bloodlines very tight. Good post.

[Smith's Bulldogs]

I agree that you will have better chances by "stacking the deck"....not just breeding the best to the best but rather the best to best within a tight proven family. It's a better chance you'll get solid bulldogs if all the dogs (within 4 generations) behind your "best" two dogs are proven dogs. Otherwise, it is just a crap shoot, some folks are just better at narrowing down the odds than others. It is possible to get good bulldogs from outcrossing...hell, some of the better dogs in history were crosses but why roll the dice when you can produce consistently with family bred dogs? If your dogs are lacking something, I can see doing an out or if you need to freshen up the gene pool, so to speak, then I would understand but I would then tighten it back up with family blood. I like the old saying "if ain't broke, don't fix it". I would personally stick with one family of PROVEN dogs before using an out, but to each his/her own.

[teras]

thank you, looking forward to info on stuff like that

[CLKENNELS]

Bump...bump...bump....bump

[zarna]

great topic, i have worked on several cattle propertys where genetics play a big part on breeding quality stud bulls and breeding cattle with embryo transfers with the cows. to breed well muscled cattle. with a good growth rate. where semen is taken to use for breedings in the future. it is something i am interested in. i owned a cattle dog bitch years ago, that was a great worker. i mated her to another good working male. and she threw some great working dogs. couple of years later i used another good male over her. and the pups where useless as working dogs. all that litter was culled except one.
breeding is a gamble, you can have dogs with a good pedigree and throw average dogs, or breed best to best. and get good dogs. like forest gump said life is like a box of chocolates , you never know what your going to get lol

[TheVictor22]

Thanks OldSlow. Good info.... The skittles really helped clear it up.


Vic

[oldslowblue]

Thanks OldSlow. Good info.... The skittles really helped clear it up.


Vic
Lol. I figured it would be better to paint a picture u can visualize, instead of just words..ya know? This breeding thing really is crazy. I just figure the more of you know about genetics, the better "fighting chance" you give yourself....however, it's still just a crap shoot. Next, I think the class should go into deep discussion about the different forms of breeding. I think lots of people are mislead when it comes to breeding what is truley considered inbreeding. Also, there is plenty of time for line breedings, and outcrosses. I'd like to start more threads inbetween class called "POINTS 2 PONDER". The first topic I'd like to debate is the "fact" that brood dogs produce better than "outcrossed or battle crossed". Again, one may decide to call it opinionated, but I bring plenty of fact to back up any thread I may start. Please Hold Me 2 This!:rolleyes:

[KBK]

Lol. I figured it would be better to paint a picture u can visualize, instead of just words..ya know? This breeding thing really is crazy. I just figure the more of you know about genetics, the better "fighting chance" you give yourself....however, it's still just a crap shoot. Next, I think the class should go into deep discussion about the different forms of breeding. I think lots of people are mislead when it comes to breeding what is truley considered inbreeding. Also, there is plenty of time for line breedings, and outcrosses. I'd like to start more threads inbetween class called "POINTS 2 PONDER". The first topic I'd like to debate is the "fact" that brood dogs produce better than "outcrossed or battle crossed". Again, one may decide to call it opinionated, but I bring plenty of fact to back up any thread I may start. Please Hold Me 2 This!:rolleyes:

Well you have my attention so lets have it, im all ears....ehm....eyes

[TheVictor22]

Well you have my attention so lets have it, im all ears....ehm....eyes


I 2nd this :D

[ben brockton]

oldslowblue thats just NUTS that brood BS. thats pedalling talk guys that are heavy into dogs know they can produce without so called brood. Why breed untested non proven dogs just becuas of the blood.IDK to me brood means for breeding only you know keep it safe.produce is a loose turm there is guys out there that can hunt with anything & succeed do it all over again . the same dogs may not work for the next guy & that dont mean they produce. breeding is all a gamble no matter how you look at it. the real producer is the men behind the dogs that is the most important factor. you can produce anything you want just play the numbers game sometimes they arnt even real LOL. If you are good you can get anything to produce just look at carver.:eek:

[Smith's Bulldogs]

If you can be honest about your program, put ego, greed and pride aside and evaluate a litter with a critical eye and cull accordingly ..then and only then, good bulldogs can be produced. If you got good stock and you're working within a family of dogs, you will quickly learn their strong points and their shortcomings. This gives an advantage over outcrossing which carries heterozygous (sp?) traits. I do get what you're saying ben, about playing number games. The most heavily sought after dogs usually come of big yards like TG's but think about all the substandard dogs that don't get culled that go on to produce more substandard dogs like themselves because someone bred a pedigree. Sure, not many folks are gonna produce as many serious hog hunters as the big guys but I rather keep my cullings to a minimum, therefore I would rather stick with one good family and build from there using as few outs as possible. Like I said though, you have to be honest with yourself and your program before you can produce some good ones, IMO.

[TheVictor22]

Good points very good.

oldslowblue thats just NUTS that brood BS. thats pedalling talk guys that are heavy into dogs know they can produce without so called brood. Why breed untested non proven dogs just becuas of the blood.IDK to me brood means for breeding only you know keep it safe.produce is a loose turm there is guys out there that can hunt with anything & succeed do it all over again . the same dogs may not work for the next guy & that dont mean they produce. breeding is all a gamble no matter how you look at it. the real producer is the men behind the dogs that is the most important factor. you can produce anything you want just play the numbers game sometimes they arnt even real LOL. If you are good you can get anything to produce just look at carver.:eek:

I agree. I was under the impresion that bood stock was tested. and had to be proven. If not I think thats bull. It seems dumb as all hell to be using unproven dogs as brood and expecting them to produce. It would be more of a gamble.

[JBlazeRx7]

I'ma have to agree with you guy's on that brood stock should be tested. As too the facts about the percentage of dog's in the past being brood or not having produced good dog's. Question I always had was what happened with Tornado she never produce anything as far as I know! I would have to stick with goin with some proven parents and ancestory. IMHO tho I'd feel more appreciative of the dog as a whole then just for the blood. I'ma tell tho I've seen some brood itsh produce FIRE!:D

I'ma have to say that with right luck and a grasp of the program (best to best) at hand is all a roll of the dice. I have seen some great dog's go and can't produce alick of NADA! Seeing from first hand tho hooked with the right mates could give you BULLDOG'S. It's just the type of paint u us! ;)

[oldslowblue]

oldslowblue thats just NUTS that brood BS. thats pedalling talk guys that are heavy into dogs know they can produce without so called brood. Why breed untested non proven dogs just becuas of the blood.IDK to me brood means for breeding only you know keep it safe.produce is a loose turm there is guys out there that can hunt with anything & succeed do it all over again . the same dogs may not work for the next guy & that dont mean they produce. breeding is all a gamble no matter how you look at it. the real producer is the men behind the dogs that is the most important factor. you can produce anything you want just play the numbers game sometimes they arnt even real LOL. If you are good you can get anything to produce just look at carver.:eek:
Nice point big Ben, but I put that statement in the form I heard it in, or hear it often I should say. When I said " the "fact" that brood dogs produce better....." That's the reason for the quotes around the word fact. Fact is, it isn't really a fact, just what I hear all of the time. I believe different, and have proof for the difference. I didn't mean for it to sound like I was calling it a fact. However, I don't want to get too deep into this, as we have plenty of time for that thread under points to ponder. Good eye though, I think you just mis-understood me.

[ben brockton]

you know me my eye dont mis nothing lol. like i say the man makes the dog the dog don't make the man. IMO 30% of the credit goes to the dog 70% should go to the man behind the dog.

[frenchie1936]

If you can be honest about your program, put ego, greed and pride aside and evaluate a litter with a critical eye and cull accordingly ..then and only then, good bulldogs can be produced. If you got good stock and you're working within a family of dogs, you will quickly learn their strong points and their shortcomings. This gives an advantage over outcrossing which carries heterozygous (sp?) traits. I do get what you're saying ben, about playing number games. The most heavily sought after dogs usually come of big yards like TG's but think about all the substandard dogs that don't get culled that go on to produce more substandard dogs like themselves because someone bred a pedigree. Sure, not many folks are gonna produce as many serious hog hunters as the big guys but I rather keep my cullings to a minimum, therefore I would rather stick with one good family and build from there using as few outs as possible. Like I said though, you have to be honest with yourself and your program before you can produce some good ones, IMO.

i agree with you on this one smith. if you stay with one family, your chances are much better than just a "gamble". like someone else stated, stacking the deck so to speak. and as far as productivity, that's a loose term as there are too many variables. if any of the greats had never won a single match (pre-76), would that still have made them less of a dog? does that make their sire or dam less of a producer? assuming they were raised the same, as the one constant in these dogs is the that the dogman is making the most of the dog, possibly taking a sub-standard dog and applying his years of knowledge to create a freak.

p.s. Blaze, it's still rolling dice, but look at it this way; say you are trying to roll all ones right? (aces so to speak) if you are rolling with six dice, your chances are a lot slimmer of rolling all ones than if you are only rolling three dice. (as it pertains to outcrossing or staying within one family of dogs)

[TripleJ]

Blue I know the breedings you are talking about. I did not have to cull all the dogs from the repeat breeding some were good dogs but not aces like the first one. That brreding was done 3 times and every time we got good dogs but like I said never as good as the first. It is all ways a crap shoot. This happens all the time not just to us I know of a lot of dog men that had great dogs the first time and not qiute as good on the repeats. IE airhead bred Tkks-Monsterman( Paladin and a 1/4 redboy) To Ch candy(Boyles -Ironruns dime) About as much a cross as it gets and got fastlane dogs. Thats do to Candy clicking well with monster man. Not to mention that when tkk bred Buster to tina louies that made the liter of candy in her litter all of the dogs made high rank. This is just an example for what I mean that GOOD DOGS make good dogs and if you breed just the best to best most of the time you will get good dogs no matter what the blood line is. Now I my self breed tighter than alot but in no way am I kennel blind and will allways breed a good one no mater what the blood line is if they them selfs are down from good ones. Breeding is the biggest gamble in dogs. No Bones about it. J

[ben brockton]

great post J. i to think good dogs will produce good dogs. & in the right hands a good one can turn into a great one.

[CLKENNELS]

So what is everybodies on most kennels breeding practices... I guess what I mean is as far as breeding goes,what direction do you think this breed is going

[ben brockton]

CLK IMO all these "kennals" dont practice what they preach. All smoke & mirror's. IDT the breed changed only the folks behind it changed. IDT you can go online & get a good dog they kind of find you. I bought dogs from "so called dogmen" because of there rep & they never workd out. The best dogs i ever had were FREE or next to nothing.

[JBlazeRx7]

I'ma be honest I can't feed nothing that ain't good. The crap shot Is what I'm playin with at the moment. As far as there potential, better chances on it working in the first litter.

Then and only then will I be rollin the dice again. I hear you guy's and that's why I'm in this class of people. Similar family genetic's do have to be of familiar parents (lineage).Best to best is where it's at of the gene pool.

Tell me something, the pool when you take a sample of it and check it out under a microscope is it gonna have different chemistry (bacteria) as if you were to take a second sample from the other side?



The water down gene's (the jar of jellybeans)is too many possiblities too slim.



I'm goin to say this tho, the percentage of good dog's has to only be off good dog's! The slim dice rolled with sub-par dog's is too slim unless you GOT the space like TG,or a STP. I have limited space to roll the dice thin!

[ben brockton]

jblaze % is a loose turm. you can make any% you want understand. the most important thing you can do is get the best education you can. a good dogman can work the%. just be sound in your judgement & honist with your dogs. over time you will develop a eye to spot talent. iron mike made ROM with 6 breeding. not because his blood is better then anyone else. but because he is one of the greatest dogman of all time.

[JBlazeRx7]

A good Dogman is all I'm tryin to be! Thanks Ben!;)

[ben brockton]

my best advice to you jblaze. save your money buy a "ch" bitch find the best stud you can. get a partner keep all the pups , cull, inbreed then cross out when they slow down. that will put you lightyears a head of most people.

[Bobby Rooster]

More people need to be buyers of good dogs instead of thinking your gonna breed the perfect dog. Find someone who sells young but grown field tested hunting stock.

Most ppl that breed don't have the heart it takes to do right by the dogs when the time comes...

Its WHO you get yer Hunting Dog from!! NOT what blood lines are in him!!

[TheVictor22]

CLK IMO all these "kennals" dont practice what they preach. All smoke & mirror's. IDT the breed changed only the folks behind it changed. IDT you can go online & get a good dog they kind of find you. I bought dogs from "so called dogmen" because of there rep & they never workd out. The best dogs i ever had were FREE or next to nothing.

You know whats funny about that is i have more confedence in the dogs that i have been offered for free or next to nothing then a pup from a Kennnel. The folks who give you a pup don't give a damn about the money So i know there focus is in the dogs. And most of the time they say if the pup don't work out we will get you another one.

[TheVictor22]

More people need to be buyers of good dogs instead of thinking your gonna breed the perfect dog. Find someone who sells young but grown field tested hunting stock.




Whats young??? If the dog is too young could be just as much a gamble as a pup. Tested or not. JMO. I have hurd of young dogs that were tested and then when the time came didn't hold there ground. But I would guess thats why you are investing more in the man behind the dogs.

Vic

[JBlazeRx7]

I hear what u Guy's are sayin and do agree.
Don't get me wrong tho I do have pups off some good dog's BYB is not the route I went. I am def not new on the block or to this breed.

I didn't get them with a price($) just a good hand shake and the hope that they turn out! The best dog's ARE from good dogmen!

With that said.....
I do believe that best to best is the way to go.

[ben brockton]

Rooster. the last thing we need is more people buying good dogs. only to turn APBT into german shepherds.

[JBlazeRx7]

I see where BR is coming from also. Sometimes Br you do have to cut corners if you don't have the space like some ppl do. Lol It's like gettin on your tree stand before that buck comes down his path lookin for some feed ya know!;)


CLKennels>>> I think the breed is goin ina direction evolution wants to take it. We can't do what was done in the pre76's but we sure can come up with things like hunting etc. to keep the BULLDOG in its true form.:o Breeding best to best and culling with out being Kennel blind has got to be the number one rule in ANYones book. I myself live by that rule any other way and your just wasting your time and killing the breed in the long run!;)

[ben brockton]

you can turn a APBT in to a german shephard in 3 generation's. thats what people dont get. them dogs ain't for everyone point blank.

[philo]

my best advice to you jblaze. save your money buy a "ch" bitch find the best stud you can. get a partner keep all the pups , cull, inbreed then cross out when they slow down. that will put you lightyears a head of most people.

Because kennels are looking to part with those bitches. :rolleyes:

[TheVictor22]

CLKennels>>> I think the breed is goin ina direction evolution wants to take it. We can't do what was done in the pre76's but we sure can come up with things like hunting etc. to keep the BULLDOG in its true form.:o Breeding best to best and culling with out being Kennel blind has got to be the number one rule in ANYones book. I myself live by that rule any other way and your just wasting your time and killing the breed in the long run!;)

I don't know about this...... There is only one way to keep the true form. and we all know what that is. With out that it wont realy be a BULLDOG. Hunting aint goin to do that. it will keep the breed closer to true. The true APBT will eventualy be a thing of the past period. JMO and piss poor breeding practises only excelerate this. I think the bigest evolution will be the owners when these dogs aint what they use to be. JMO.


Vic

[ben brockton]

bulldogs will never be a thing of the past. as long as there is outlaws. just like people will break the law & speed or do drugs.

[JBlazeRx7]

You have a point Vic we're on the same page! ;)

[AGK]

Because kennels are looking to part with those bitches. :rolleyes:

Money always talks louder than words, If you got the money, finding a ch bitch to take off someones hands isn't all that difficult to find......

[TheVictor22]

bulldogs will never be a thing of the past. as long as there is outlaws. just like people will break the law & speed or do drugs.


Thats true i never really looked at it like anything else. People goin to do what they want leagal or not.


Vic

[AGK]

I don't know about this...... There is only one way to keep the true form. and we all know what that is. With out that it wont realy be a BULLDOG. Hunting aint goin to do that. it will keep the breed closer to true. The true APBT will eventualy be a thing of the past period. JMO and piss poor breeding practises only excelerate this. I think the bigest evolution will be the owners when these dogs aint what they use to be. JMO.


Vic

The APBT in its true form will not go away in our life time or our childrens life time or their childrens life time as long as there are places like the balkans and asia as well as others who don't outlaw the sport (hell, it's been illegal here for quite some time now and yet it isn't really that hard for just about anyone who wants one to get their hands on some gamebred dogs (unfortunate it may be, but the truth it definitly is.....) .....JMO

[Boze]

correct me if i am wrong but didnt colby use prety much the same stock all his life and bred best to best within his family of dogs and i am prety sure he had some of the best dogs around. now i was not their and we all no that stories are stories but if that is true then i would try to follow one of the greatest dogmen of all time

[ben brockton]

look at his dogs now? he was not the only good dogman back then. he was just the first to find a nitch & capitalize on it.

[TheVictor22]

The APBT in its true form will not go away in our life time or our childrens life time or their childrens life time as long as there are places like the balkans and asia as well as others who don't outlaw the sport (hell, it's been illegal here for quite some time now and yet it isn't really that hard for just about anyone who wants one to get their hands on some gamebred dogs (unfortunate it may be, but the truth it definitly is.....) .....JMO


True that. I for some reason didn't concider all the other places. I was just thinking about home..... I'm not goin to the balkans it's cold. Now south of the equater thats another story :D. I have actualy been weighing it pretty heavy.


vic

[GrandStanding]

my best advice to you jblaze. save your money buy a "ch" bitch find the best stud you can. get a partner keep all the pups , cull, inbreed then cross out when they slow down. that will put you lightyears a head of most people.

Best advice given so far..........

[GrandStanding]

I don't know about this...... There is only one way to keep the true form. and we all know what that is. With out that it wont realy be a BULLDOG. Hunting aint goin to do that. it will keep the breed closer to true. The true APBT will eventualy be a thing of the past period. JMO and piss poor breeding practises only excelerate this. I think the bigest evolution will be the owners when these dogs aint what they use to be. JMO.


Vic
I see your point, I agree with the statement that there is only one way to keep the breed true to form, but I kindly disagree with the second part. I think, hell we all know, with the popularity of the breed down goes the percentage of qualilty, percentage being the key word... There will always be great true to form bulldogges but the percentage will be lower overall b/c of the large number of bullshit out there. ex. A guy was selling pups from a watchdog/gotti x chinaman/jeep breeding for 1200. true story

[GrandStanding]

look at his dogs now? he was not the only good dogman back then. he was just the first to find a nitch & capitalize on it.
When you say look at his dogs now, could you elaborate please? I'm just curious...

[ben brockton]

GS just do some research. i can only go by what is general knowledge magazine,internet,word of mouth. thats all i can base my opinion on. i know of one guy that use it as a cross into i think RB dogs.if it works use it.

[philo]

Money always talks louder than words, If you got the money, finding a ch bitch to take off someones hands isn't all that difficult to find......You can tell that to someone who doesn't know better.

[oldslowblue]

correct me if i am wrong but didnt colby use prety much the same stock all his life and bred best to best within his family of dogs and i am prety sure he had some of the best dogs around. now i was not their and we all no that stories are stories but if that is true then i would try to follow one of the greatest dogmen of all time

Si...Lol I meant yes! It's true. Colby only made one outcross in thirty years of the same family of dogs. Wise man? Lucked up? Can it be repeated? The answer to all these questions unfortunately lay in power beyond what is known. Still boils down to genetic make-up and gene pool variability. I justgot back from Mexico. Wow, almost forgot how beautiful it was. Re - dissovering the Mayan Ruins....and the waters.... OMG! BEAUTIFUL. Anyhow, my summer is just about over, and I think it's time for classes again......AS PROMISSED!+=BLUE!=!JIMMIEBOOTS=MLK!+