artical on "battlecrosses"

[mseebran]

Informative article, thought it may be useful to everyone. :D

http://www.game-bred.com/game%20bred%20dogs%20and%20heterosis.pdf

[Boze]

good read i was wanted to no exactly wat a battle cross was i mean i had an idea but i was never really sure thanks.

[TripleJ]

good read i was wanted to no exactly wat a battle cross was i mean i had an idea but i was never really sure thanks.In apbt it is with two or more strains of apbt NOT other types of dogs some of the best box dogs were Battle cross. J

[mseebran]

I'm a newbie, and I eat up info like this, so I thought others may like it too.:D

[FireBone]

I have always believed in breed the best to the best. Whether they are in the same lines or not, but u still breed for key for traits that u like in your dogs.

[rooster]

In apbt it is with two or more strains of apbt NOT other types of dogs some of the best box dogs were Battle cross. J
Not true.

It is often with other APBT but not always.

Frisco Sport who was the best dog on the East coast for a while (and one of the best dogs ever) was an English bull terrier crossed with an early American pit bull terrier. Stormer was also half English bull terrier.

Battle cross is a word to describe more distant lines being crossed just for "battle" and not for breeding. Sometimes distant lines within the same breed and sometimes different breeds. It is done with roosters a lot. Shamo being bred to Asil for example (two different breeds).

[rooster]

Informative article, thought it may be useful to everyone. :D

http://www.game-bred.com/game%20bred%20dogs%20and%20heterosis.pdf


Thanks I thought it would be useful too, so I wrote it lol.

Nice to have positive feed back on it. I got a lot of positive feed back on the article and some negative. Most of the negative critics never back any of their criticisms with facts (just insults usually).

I'm a fan of crossing as long as lines are also kept pure alongside the crossing program. You have to have good pure lines around in order to have good battle crosses. (btw I also used to breed and use lurchers for a while and lurchers are generally crosses with greyhounds).

p.s.
I should of left out the reference to humans as it upset a lot of people. But anyway I wrote it a long time ago and it served its purpose, of clearing up the "what is a battle cross" question; i hope.

[TripleJ]

Not true.

It is often with other APBT but not always.

Frisco Sport who was the best dog on the East coast for a while (and one of the best dogs ever) was an English bull terrier crossed with an early American pit bull terrier. Stormer was also half English bull terrier.

Battle cross is a word to describe more distant lines being crossed just for "battle" and not for breeding. Sometimes distant lines within the same breed and sometimes different breeds. It is done with roosters a lot. Shamo being bred to Asil for example (two different breeds).
I have NEVER herd of a good dog man IN TODAYS time doing any thing like that. That may have been done many years ago. But you can Be quite sure That dog frisco sport is not in many Peds that are of much importance in todays dogs. And Battle cross dogs are on the ROM list so they are of importance in breeding. We can get in to well I read a book and it said a bosten Terrior and pit bull (BLABLABLA) won and was bad . What ever! When you hear a Real dog man (modern) Say thats a battle cross you can Damn sure bet he aint talkin of a pitdoodle! And they dont breed roosters with a dove to get the baddest bird even though a Dove is as game as a rooster.(A dove will fight to death 90% of the time) They may bred a Butcher and a black to get the cross but they are still chickens. J

[Mr Mark]

I have NEVER herd of a good dog man IN TODAYS time doing any thing like that. That may have been done many years ago. But you can Be quite sure That dog frisco sport is not in many Peds that are of much importance in todays dogs. And Battle cross dogs are on the ROM list so they are of importance in breeding. We can get in to well I read a book and it said a bosten Terrior and pit bull (BLABLABLA) won and was bad . What ever! When you hear a Real dog man (modern) Say thats a battle cross you can Damn sure bet he aint talkin of a pitdoodle! And they dont breed roosters with a dove to get the baddest bird even though a Dove is as game as a rooster.(A dove will fight to death 90% of the time) They may bred a Butcher and a black to get the cross but they are still chickens. J

I have to agree with you Triple J. This may have worked years (decades/centuries) ago, but not in today's time.

[rooster]

I have NEVER herd of a good dog man IN TODAYS time doing any thing like that. That may have been done many years ago. But you can Be quite sure That dog frisco sport is not in many Peds that are of much importance in todays dogs. And Battle cross dogs are on the ROM list so they are of importance in breeding. We can get in to well I read a book and it said a bosten Terrior and pit bull (BLABLABLA) won and was bad . What ever! When you hear a Real dog man (modern) Say thats a battle cross you can Damn sure bet he aint talkin of a pitdoodle! And they dont breed roosters with a dove to get the baddest bird even though a Dove is as game as a rooster.(A dove will fight to death 90% of the time) They may bred a Butcher and a black to get the cross but they are still chickens. J

:rolleyes:no comment, your reply speaks volumes.

[TripleJ]

:rolleyes:no comment, your reply speaks volumes.I also speaks a realistict truth. Not just what one read in a book.

[rooster]

Ok Rocky.

Why ?

Triple J's answer is he doesn't read books, so that is just his experience. Ok that's fine but I am an agricultural scientist and that is what we call a statistically invalid answer. I can't debate with him, as he doesn't believe what he reads in books or scientific papers. Fair enough answer but there is no point in discussing it further.

However you say you "believe' that battle crosses of another breed will never be in the top notch of dog fighting ? (forget chicken fighting as hybrids battle crosses between different breeds of chciken is just completely routine and not even a controversial issue)

Please answer these simple questions ?
(1) Are you saying that today's dogs are better than those of the past ?
(2) If not are you really saying that Frisco Sport was not a great fighting dog ? (I can name others too from an even closer time).
(3) Can you explain scientifically rather than just belief as to why crosssing with other very similar breeds (no need for anymore silly remarks as by Triple J about poodles from people than don't even bother to read articles or can't read articles before criticising in silly ways:eek:)
We all know about scatter, ok what other reasons or is scatter the only one ?

Now as I said to Mr Triple J very clearly that he failed to pick up as stated in the article. Hybrid vigour is achieved by crossing in lines of the same breed and sometimes even outside the breed as in lurchers. Most fighting dogs that have been battle crosses were YES in the same breed ie "pit bull". However he said ALL WERE AND ARE FROM THE SAME BREED. That is not true as I pointed out there are and have been exceptions.


Factual replies would be appreciated rather then replies of "belief" only.

[TripleJ]

Ok Rocky.

Why ?

Triple J's answer is he doesn't read books, so that is just his experience. Ok that's fine but I am an agricultural scientist and that is what we call a statistically invalid answer. I can't debate with him, as he doesn't believe what he reads in books or scientific papers. Fair enough answer but there is no point in discussing it further.

However you say you "believe' that battle crosses of another breed will never be in the top notch of dog fighting ? (forget chicken fighting as hybrids battle crosses between different breeds of chciken is just completely routine and not even a controversial issue)

Please answer these simple questions ?
(1) Are you saying that today's dogs are better than those of the past ?
(2) If not are you really saying that Frisco Sport was not a great fighting dog ? (I can name others too from an even closer time).
(3) Can you explain scientifically rather than just belief as to why crosssing with other very similar breeds (no need for anymore silly remarks as by Triple J about poodles from people than don't even bother to read articles or can't read articles before criticising in silly ways:eek:)
We all know about scatter, ok what other reasons or is scatter the only one ?

Now as I said to Mr Triple J very clearly that he failed to pick up as stated in the article. Hybrid vigour is achieved by crossing in lines of the same breed and sometimes even outside the breed as in lurchers. Most fighting dogs that have been battle crosses were YES in the same breed ie "pit bull". However he said ALL WERE AND ARE FROM THE SAME BREED. That is not true as I pointed out there are and have been exceptions.


Factual replies would be appreciated rather then replies of "belief" only.Ok . I was not going to do this BUT, FIRST OFF, JACK ASS, we are talking about Real GAME dogs, and YOUR books dont meen sqwat to me I AM A GAME DOG BREEDER!!!!!!! and those dogs your talking about are nothing more than CURR DOGS to me.... AND LIKE I SAID (APBT BATTLE CROSS DOGS ARE NOT CURR DOGS) WE DO NOT BREED LURCHERS. GET IT!! WE DONT CARE ABOUT BOOKS, JUST REAL LIFE!!! GET YOUR HIGH FULLUTION ASS OFF THE HORSE AND YOU MAY LEARN A THING OR TWO ABOUT BREEDIN A GOOD GAME DOG.....WE DONT CARE HOW THEY"SAID THEY MADE ONE DOG THAT WAS GOOD" WE WANT MANY AND THAT DAMN SURE AINT BY CROSSING CURRS. put that in you book pipe and SMOKE IT!!!

[rooster]

Ok . I was not going to do this BUT, FIRST OFF, JACK ASS, we are talking about Real GAME dogs, and YOUR books dont meen sqwat to me I AM A GAME DOG BREEDER!!!!!!! and those dogs your talking about are nothing more than CURR DOGS to me.... AND LIKE I SAID (APBT BATTLE CROSS DOGS ARE NOT CURR DOGS) WE DO NOT BREED LURCHERS. GET IT!! WE DONT CARE ABOUT BOOKS, JUST REAL LIFE!!! GET YOUR HIGH FULLUTION ASS OFF THE HORSE AND YOU MAY LEARN A THING OR TWO ABOUT BREEDIN A GOOD GAME DOG.....WE DONT CARE HOW THEY"SAID THEY MADE ONE DOG THAT WAS GOOD" WE WANT MANY AND THAT DAMN SURE AINT BY CROSSING CURRS. put that in you book pipe and SMOKE IT!!!
:eek:I don't smoke !

Actually I agree with most of what you are saying. I was just correcting your slight inaccuracy that no other breeds crossed into pitbulls have been successful as some have (in the pit).

You obviosuly have some good dogs and a lot of experience (I have bred game dogs that have been proven in the pit) but you really should learn to read a bit more and read objectively. Knowing theory along with practical experience together may even improve your skill at breeding (if that is possible of course). I always learn new things as I am sure you can. Good luck with your dogs and your ego!
Adios:)

[TripleJ]

:eek:I don't smoke !

Actually I agree with most of what you are saying. I was just correcting your slight inaccuracy that no other breeds crossed into pitbulls have been successful as some have (in the pit).

You obviosuly have some good dogs and a lot of experience (I have bred game dogs that have been proven in the pit) but you really should learn to read a bit more and read objectively. Knowing theory along with practical experience together may even improve your skill at breeding (if that is possible of course). I always learn new things as I am sure you can. Good luck with your dogs and your ego!
Adios:)I have never seen a dog last very long that was a curr bred dog. I am sure you may see them in BOOKS but in the real world where I live, the shit just dont stick, Maybe in your world they are the best thing since slice bread. But we eat bread around here. Later DOC!. J

[mseebran]

It's gettin deep in here folks, might wanna put some boots on, lol. :p

[DEACON ROM]

There are many great articles on hybrid vigor, and festivals that are based on this simple technic. The cannibus cup for example. :)

The issue of breeding two differant types of animals expecting a hybrid vigor is exactly why this boards exist. This board is here for American pitbull terrier owners. Considering the fact that the apbt is a "lurcher" itself. Evidently we all agree this technic of breeding can obviously spawn some breathe takeing animals, why else would we spend so much time enjoying what history has produced.


Although i dont condone outcrossing pitbulls to other families of dogs, for all practical purposes i do belive it was necessary at one time. The gene pool of this breed can now successfully sustain the desired traits, when bred properly. I do belive the dogs of today are better, and the % of the desired animals are also superior to the yester generations (in some families). But few people really understand the concept of maintaing a successful line and eliminating the unwanted throw backs.(AKA the hard work) What they want to do is outcross(within the breed) instead of inbreeding/line breeding and raising the coefficient and bringing the undesired traits to the suface, which then in turn would allow the breeder to eliminate the garbage, raise the % of desired traits for future generations and reap the benefits of the tried and true fact that: the fruit dont fall far from the tree.

As far as pitbull breeders outcrossing to other families: this would explain the huge massive muscular "pitbull" look a likes that have paperwork that say "pit" on them.

btw walter kominski(SP?) bred bull terriers to apbt's because he thought they bit harder, he won with some of those dogs, and it wasnt that long ago.

[rooster]

There are many great articles on hybrid vigor, and festivals that are based on this simple technic. The cannibus cup for example. :)

The issue of breeding two differant types of animals expecting a hybrid vigor is exactly why this boards exist. This board is here for American pitbull terrier owners. Considering the fact that the apbt is a "lurcher" itself. Evidently we all agree this technic of breeding can obviously spawn some breathe takeing animals, why else would we spend so much time enjoying what history has produced.


Although i dont condone outcrossing pitbulls to other families of dogs, for all practical purposes i do belive it was necessary at one time. The gene pool of this breed can now successfully sustain the desired traits, when bred properly. I do belive the dogs of today are better, and the % of the desired animals are also superior to the yester generations (in some families). But few people really understand the concept of maintaing a successful line and eliminating the unwanted throw backs.(AKA the hard work) What they want to do is outcross(within the breed) instead of inbreeding/line breeding and raising the coefficient and bringing the undesired traits to the suface, which then in turn would allow the breeder to eliminate the garbage, raise the % of desired traits for future generations and reap the benefits of the tried and true fact that: the fruit dont fall far from the tree.

As far as pitbull breeders outcrossing to other families: this would explain the huge massive muscular "pitbull" look a likes that have paperwork that say "pit" on them.

btw walter kominski(SP?) bred bull terriers to apbt's because he thought they bit harder, he won with some of those dogs, and it wasnt that long ago.

Thanks that was a great reply to my paper, I enjoyed reading it. Kominiski did use English bull terrier * pitbull terrier battle crosses fairly successfully. Your reply was nicely balanced and I agree with most of what you said

Yes English bull terriers almost always (sometimes staffords) seem to be the breed used if outcrossing the APBT to another breed, for specific use in the box (but usually with battlecrosses, as pointed out above by Triple J it is within the pit bull terrier itself). However if talking about other breeds crossed to the APBT (very closely related in the case of the EBT) then English bull terriers have from time to time produced VERY good dogs.

Also yes both English bull terriers and Pit bull terriers could certainly be classified as lurchers when they were first created as could all English bull baiting dogs (some being very game of course), these looking more like greyhounds than modern day pit bull terriers. Recently the swineford http://www.chimerakennels.com/originoftheswinford.htm
kennels are a good example of hybrids, although here in this case, not it seems not using English bull terriers crossed to pit bull terriers but mastiff's and others crosses to pitbull terriers. Probably because the purpose of these dogs is not aimed at the box but aimed at protection.

p.s.
Yes English bull terriers do have an awesome mouth.:D

Also a major point that many dog men here have missed in my article is this.

"Heterosis increases the chances of inheriting low heritably traits. "gameness is a low heritable trait". Gameness is a trait that is difficult to inherit it is also obtained through many genes and not one. Therefore IT IS A SCEINTIFIC FACT that the heritablilty of gameness is increased by heterosis!!!!!!!!:eek:"

[DEACON ROM]

i would like to see the pedigree on bobtail buddy. the sire of the orginal cross that produced swineford bantu dog.

[TripleJ]

There are many great articles on hybrid vigor, and festivals that are based on this simple technic. The cannibus cup for example. :)

The issue of breeding two differant types of animals expecting a hybrid vigor is exactly why this boards exist. This board is here for American pitbull terrier owners. Considering the fact that the apbt is a "lurcher" itself. Evidently we all agree this technic of breeding can obviously spawn some breathe takeing animals, why else would we spend so much time enjoying what history has produced.


Although i dont condone outcrossing pitbulls to other families of dogs, for all practical purposes i do belive it was necessary at one time. The gene pool of this breed can now successfully sustain the desired traits, when bred properly. I do belive the dogs of today are better, and the % of the desired animals are also superior to the yester generations (in some families). But few people really understand the concept of maintaing a successful line and eliminating the unwanted throw backs.(AKA the hard work) What they want to do is outcross(within the breed) instead of inbreeding/line breeding and raising the coefficient and bringing the undesired traits to the suface, which then in turn would allow the breeder to eliminate the garbage, raise the % of desired traits for future generations and reap the benefits of the tried and true fact that: the fruit dont fall far from the tree.

As far as pitbull breeders outcrossing to other families: this would explain the huge massive muscular "pitbull" look a likes that have paperwork that say "pit" on them.

btw walter kominski(SP?) bred bull terriers to apbt's because he thought they bit harder, he won with some of those dogs, and it wasnt that long ago.And Kominski is not very well know for producing a strong familey of dogs. Thats a fact. dont get on the cross our breed bullshit with me. IT JUST AINT AS GOOD sure you may get a freak but for the numbers it dont work.. Thats a fact!! And think about how many more he would have won if he didnt breed curs SURE a hard mouth curr could have beat a fair game dog but not a dog that was just as hard and a game dog ,any thing can be beat down, I think we all knows what happens when you have every thing else the same but one is more game.... YIS J

[Caos]

Informative article, thought it may be useful to everyone. :D

http://www.game-bred.com/game%20bred%20dogs%20and%20heterosis.pdf

nice read:)

[TheVictor22]

Thanks good read.

[DEACON ROM]

And Kominski is not very well know for producing a strong familey of dogs. Thats a fact.

No that’s your opinion. And a poor one at that. You have no idea how well known his dogs are/were, that is your assumption as to what you think other people know. (And since a lot of those dogs are gone now I guess it wasn’t a strong family? considering what happen to all the Patrick dogs and the boudreaux dogs, hmmmm lot of those dogs are gone now too, maybe they weren’t a strong family….interesting) Furthermore, the label of a “strong family of dogs” comes with many variables as to what it is that defines strong as it pertains to a family of pit dogs, maybe you could elaborate with the use of your own pedigree, or better yet some proven pedigrees you respect as being “cream” of the crop, then maybe we’ll get to the bottom your rederick.

<O:p</O:pdont get on the cross our breed bullshit with me. IT JUST AINT AS GOOD sure you may get a freak but for the numbers it dont work.. Thats a fact!!

You need to re-read my original post and consider a time line involved before you jump to the conclusion that I’m unaware of what’s best for the working apbt.<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p

And think about how many more he would have won if he didnt breed curs SURE a hard mouth curr could have beat a fair game dog but not a dog that was just as hard and a game dog ,any thing can be beat down,

<O:p</O:p
Your factious match reports are irrelevant.
<O:p</O:pDeacon’s little walter & Triple j’s cross dresser<O:p</O:p
Little Walter of cur decent. Cross dresser from strong family of gameness. Cross dresser out front early on. Turn on little walter at 15. Walter goes hard. Handle at 21 mark. Cross dresser to go. Cross dress takes count at 22 min.<O:p</O:p
Winner cur bred.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
A dog bred from game animals quit. A dog bred from cur breeding won showing a hard game scratch. Of course this is a hypothetical report but the outcome happens all the time>>>>>FACT.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
The topic is battle crossing and breeding for desired traits. Not everyone respects the same traits, or uses the same breeding techniques to achieve there success. Hunter red was given to Crenshaw because he was just a dumb plug. Crenshaw got just that off him, so he got rid of him. He then went to smith’s yard and made rom. Rebel kennels got alot of crenshaws culls, a lot of those culls turned out to be winners/ch/rom/por ect….these are all Historical FACTS.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:pI think we all knows what happens when you have every thing else the same but one is more game.... YIS <O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p

Never do any two dogs have “all else the same”. Only someone who doesn’t know what there looking at would make that statement.<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p

[TheVictor22]

<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:pI think we all knows what happens when you have every thing else the same but one is more game.... YIS <O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p

Never do any two dogs have “all else the same”. Only someone who doesn’t know what there looking at would make that statement.<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p

I think this was more of a hypothetical. It's hard to judge or determan what dog waould win over what dog. It's a fight. If you and I got in a fight and I was clearly the more prepared and better fighter and I make a mistake. You could land one on my chin and knock me out and win the fight. It's a fight noway to predict the out come. but givin the scenario from J. If two dogs with equil attributes with the exception of one being more game then the other. It would seem easy enough for the dog that was more game to take the match........ but again it's a fight so anything could happen. in either of these sceanarios. I personaly don't see TOO MANY mixed bred muts beating an APBT at what it was bred to do. Not to say it doesn't happen.

[DEACON ROM]

I think this was more of a hypothetical. It's hard to judge or determan what dog waould win over what dog. It's a fight. If you and I got in a fight and I was clearly the more prepared and better fighter and I make a mistake. You could land one on my chin and knock me out and win the fight. It's a fight noway to predict the out come. but givin the scenario from J. If two dogs with equil attributes with the exception of one being more game then the other. It would seem easy enough for the dog that was more game to take the match........ but again it's a fight so anything could happen. in either of these sceanarios. I personaly don't see TOO MANY mixed bred muts beating an APBT at what it was bred to do. Not to say it doesn't happen.


yeah , i was aware of his hypothetical senario, which is why i introduced one myself. Im not trying to convice anyone to breed or show any mix bred animals in any of my posts, Ive merely addressed the issue that "mix bred" breeding is what created the apbt and that in itself should be enough for any fancier of the apbt to respect.

[TheVictor22]

yeah , i was aware of his hypothetical senario, which is why i introduced one myself. Im not trying to convice anyone to breed or show any mix bred animals in any of my posts, Ive merely addressed the issue that "mix bred" breeding is what created the apbt and that in itself should be enough for any fancier of the apbt to respect.

Ok but IMO it would be harder to belive a mixed bred dog wining over a APBT as uposed to J's Scenario. Agreed you have to respect that. It's the breed history. But I doubt many of those mixed dogs would hold a candle to a proper modern APBT. But I see your point Deac.

Victor

[Bobby Rooster]

Ok . I was not going to do this BUT, FIRST OFF, JACK ASS, we are talking about Real GAME dogs, and YOUR books dont meen sqwat to me I AM A GAME DOG BREEDER!!!!!!! and those dogs your talking about are nothing more than CURR DOGS to me.... AND LIKE I SAID (APBT BATTLE CROSS DOGS ARE NOT CURR DOGS) WE DO NOT BREED LURCHERS. GET IT!! WE DONT CARE ABOUT BOOKS, JUST REAL LIFE!!! GET YOUR HIGH FULLUTION ASS OFF THE HORSE AND YOU MAY LEARN A THING OR TWO ABOUT BREEDIN A GOOD GAME DOG.....WE DONT CARE HOW THEY"SAID THEY MADE ONE DOG THAT WAS GOOD" WE WANT MANY AND THAT DAMN SURE AINT BY CROSSING CURRS. put that in you book pipe and SMOKE IT!!!

Hey bro why do you care how John Doe breeds his dogs? as long as YOU know how is it any concern of anyone elses? if someone wants to breed those dog and wants to put his money where his mouth is call it and let the better win.....

back in the old days it was Agree on a sex and a weight and bring the best DOG..... Best of luck to someone that wants and breed hybreds... it no sweat off my back... :)

[Bobby Rooster]

Thanks that was a great reply to my paper, I enjoyed reading it. Kominiski did use English bull terrier * pitbull terrier battle crosses fairly successfully. Your reply was nicely balanced and I agree with most of what you said

Yes English bull terriers almost always (sometimes staffords) seem to be the breed used if outcrossing the APBT to another breed, for specific use in the box (but usually with battlecrosses, as pointed out above by Triple J it is within the pit bull terrier itself). However if talking about other breeds crossed to the APBT (very closely related in the case of the EBT) then English bull terriers have from time to time produced VERY good dogs.

Also yes both English bull terriers and Pit bull terriers could certainly be classified as lurchers when they were first created as could all English bull baiting dogs (some being very game of course), these looking more like greyhounds than modern day pit bull terriers. Recently the swineford http://www.chimerakennels.com/originoftheswinford.htm
kennels are a good example of hybrids, although here in this case, not it seems not using English bull terriers crossed to pit bull terriers but mastiff's and others crosses to pitbull terriers. Probably because the purpose of these dogs is not aimed at the box but aimed at protection.

p.s.
Yes English bull terriers do have an awesome mouth.:D

Also a major point that many dog men here have missed in my article is this.

"Heterosis increases the chances of inheriting low heritably traits. "gameness is a low heritable trait". Gameness is a trait that is difficult to inherit it is also obtained through many genes and not one. Therefore IT IS A SCEINTIFIC FACT that the heritablilty of gameness is increased by heterosis!!!!!!!!:eek:"

In the same theory a dog man could also breed Tosa's and patterdales to his ApBT's.... now what hybrid that would be

[Bobby Rooster]

And Kominski is not very well know for producing a strong familey of dogs. Thats a fact. dont get on the cross our breed bullshit with me. IT JUST AINT AS GOOD sure you may get a freak but for the numbers it dont work.. Thats a fact!! And think about how many more he would have won if he didnt breed curs SURE a hard mouth curr could have beat a fair game dog but not a dog that was just as hard and a game dog ,any thing can be beat down, I think we all knows what happens when you have every thing else the same but one is more game.... YIS J

Now i might be wrong but didn't Kominski kill all of his dogs to keep them out of peoples hands... before he died all of his dogs were dead too...

[RECOGN1ZED]

This topic is very interesting:cool:

[DEACON ROM]

Now i might be wrong but didn't Kominski kill all of his dogs to keep them out of peoples hands... before he died all of his dogs were dead too...

komosinski born in 1894 died 1983 of cancer. before he died he told his wife vicky to put all the dogs down which she did, and died within 6 months later also.(adba gazzete spring 04 part 1, summer 04 part 2 written by ozzie stevens.)

[rooster]

In the same theory a dog man could also breed Tosa's and patterdales to his ApBT's.... now what hybrid that would be
Patterpits are used quite a lot in southern Europe. Makes for a nice cross IMO. Pitbull blood is often used in the Tosa and Tosa blood has been infused in APBT in some programs in central Asia and Russia to make for a larger pitbull terrier; that can fight against much larger caucasian sheppard dogs or mongrel variants which sometimes kill APBT when outweighing them by 30 or 40 pounds and very unfair due to the weight disadvantage.
http://www.pulldoggies.com/images/sanchezpitterpat1.jpg
The paterpitt above is from a US web site that breeds APBT's and patterdales.

I'm not a fan of trying to create larger APBT as I prefer smaller dogs anyway, but I do like some of the patterpits that are bred from "game" APBT or working staffords and "game' patterdale terriers. Game terrier crosses of different breeds have been carried out for centuries in Europe where ofter paperwork and breed name is irrelevant, the only factor being relevant is can the two animals being bred together both work well and what will each one bring to the dinner table. That is up to the dog man concerned as "red cocaine" states and no one elses business (unless he asks for advice)!
APBT fans should be very proud of all their breed's donations to other breeds, APBT blood is around in a lot of today's breeds and yes it makes very interesting discussion to learn about this topic.

[TripleJ]

And Kominski is not very well know for producing a strong familey of dogs. Thats a fact.

No that’s your opinion. And a poor one at that. You have no idea how well known his dogs are/were, that is your assumption as to what you think other people know. (And since a lot of those dogs are gone now I guess it wasn’t a strong family? considering what happen to all the Patrick dogs and the boudreaux dogs, hmmmm lot of those dogs are gone now too, maybe they weren’t a strong family….interesting) Furthermore, the label of a “strong family of dogs” comes with many variables as to what it is that defines strong as it pertains to a family of pit dogs, maybe you could elaborate with the use of your own pedigree, or better yet some proven pedigrees you respect as being “cream” of the crop, then maybe we’ll get to the bottom your rederick.

<O:p</O:pdont get on the cross our breed bullshit with me. IT JUST AINT AS GOOD sure you may get a freak but for the numbers it dont work.. Thats a fact!!

You need to re-read my original post and consider a time line involved before you jump to the conclusion that I’m unaware of what’s best for the working apbt.<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p

And think about how many more he would have won if he didnt breed curs SURE a hard mouth curr could have beat a fair game dog but not a dog that was just as hard and a game dog ,any thing can be beat down,

<O:p</O:p
Your factious match reports are irrelevant.
<O:p</O:pDeacon’s little walter & Triple j’s cross dresser<O:p</O:p
Little Walter of cur decent. Cross dresser from strong family of gameness. Cross dresser out front early on. Turn on little walter at 15. Walter goes hard. Handle at 21 mark. Cross dresser to go. Cross dress takes count at 22 min.<O:p</O:p
Winner cur bred.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
A dog bred from game animals quit. A dog bred from cur breeding won showing a hard game scratch. Of course this is a hypothetical report but the outcome happens all the time>>>>>FACT.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
The topic is battle crossing and breeding for desired traits. Not everyone respects the same traits, or uses the same breeding techniques to achieve there success. Hunter red was given to Crenshaw because he was just a dumb plug. Crenshaw got just that off him, so he got rid of him. He then went to smith’s yard and made rom. Rebel kennels got alot of crenshaws culls, a lot of those culls turned out to be winners/ch/rom/por ect….these are all Historical FACTS.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:pI think we all knows what happens when you have every thing else the same but one is more game.... YIS <O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p

Never do any two dogs have “all else the same”. Only someone who doesn’t know what there looking at would make that statement.<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
How many dogs made good dogs off those crosses??? how many winners??? and any time you want to check my gameness you take I 95 south call me when yo cross the floride line. Its easy to talk shit behind a key board. And the truth is the truth curr dogs may win one or two but not on a scale that matters. Just like your dream of a match report you would not make 2 min with me much less 22. Ive been to war I know how to finish fast. Dont come on hear talking all that bull shit about breeding currdogs some new guy may think he is going to make the next best thing and make man killers. any time on that other Im allways in keep and allways ready Pm me I will give you my number. DICK HEAD. Yours in sport J

[DEACON ROM]

How many dogs made good dogs off those crosses??? how many winners??? and any time you want to check my gameness you take I 95 south call me when yo cross the floride line. Its easy to talk shit behind a key board. And the truth is the truth curr dogs may win one or two but not on a scale that matters. Just like your dream of a match report you would not make 2 min with me much less 22. Ive been to war I know how to finish fast. Dont come on hear talking all that bull shit about breeding currdogs some new guy may think he is going to make the next best thing and make man killers. any time on that other Im allways in keep and allways ready Pm me I will give you my number. DICK HEAD. Yours in sport J


. <<<< that little dot is the worlds smallest symphony, and its playing just for you.;)

[SPFDOGS]

Informative article, thought it may be useful to everyone. :D

http://www.game-bred.com/game%20bred%20dogs%20and%20heterosis.pdf

Interesting article..Useful?, not really but interesting none the less..

The only reports of apbt mixes that I have heard about doing well were the dogs of the late Walter Komosinski,and he never came out and said that he was cross breeding the two breeds..But by looking at some/most of the dogs that came from his yard,its appearant that he must have done some expiremental breedings..That and the fact that more than a few reputable dogmen have stated in print,and otherwise,that they saw english bull terriers on his yard during their frequent visits to his there..
Regarless of what Mr. Komosinski did,or how well he faired, I personally would NEVER condone the breeding of the apbt to ANY other breed of dog (and this includes bullies,blue dogs,etc)..

The dogs mentioned in the article were shown in the uk..The competition in the uk is/was/has been not up to par with their counterparts across the atlantic..Not saying that there werent good dogs in the uk,just not like there were/are in the states..Stormer was arguably one of the better known dogs coming from the other side of the pond..One of his wins was over a english bull terrier..Stiff comp eh?.If one was to brag on such a contest here in the states,he would get laughed and/or ridiculed by his peers for "picking spots"..The Farmer Boys were arguably one of the top kennels in the uk..Im sure that they didnt use any mixed breed dogs..

Im not saying that the apbt has never lost to a animal of a different breed (as around 5yrs ago Rickey B turned in a report to the agdt with his Irish Staff winning over a APBT) ,what Im saying is that no other breed,or cross breed can win on a consistent,or even a moderatley consistant basis when competing in the so called "fast lane"..Period..

[rooster]

Interesting article..Useful?, not really but interesting none the less..

The only reports of apbt mixes that I have heard about doing well were the dogs of the late Walter Komosinski,and he never came out and said that he was cross breeding the two breeds..But by looking at some/most of the dogs that came from his yard,its appearant that he must have done some expiremental breedings..That and the fact that more than a few reputable dogmen have stated in print,and otherwise,that they saw english bull terriers on his yard during their frequent visits to his there..
Regarless of what Mr. Komosinski did,or how well he faired, I personally would NEVER condone the breeding of the apbt to ANY other breed of dog (and this includes bullies,blue dogs,etc)..

The dogs mentioned in the article were shown in the uk..The competition in the uk is/was/has been not up to par with their counterparts across the atlantic..Not saying that there werent good dogs in the uk,just not like there were/are in the states..Stormer was arguably one of the better known dogs coming from the other side of the pond..One of his wins was over a english bull terrier..Stiff comp eh?.If one was to brag on such a contest here in the states,he would get laughed and/or ridiculed by his peers for "picking spots"..The Farmer Boys were arguably one of the top kennels in the uk..Im sure that they didnt use any mixed breed dogs..

Im not saying that the apbt has never lost to a animal of a different breed (as around 5yrs ago Rickey B turned in a report to the agdt with his Irish Staff winning over a APBT) ,what Im saying is that no other breed,or cross breed can win on a consistent,or even a moderatley consistant basis when competing in the so called "fast lane"..Period..

lol @ Farmers boys not using any mixed breeds!

That place over the pond is where your dogs originally came from.

Some more info for people unfamilair with dogs over the pond.
http://www.game-bred.com/indigenous-fighting-dogs-oftheisles.pdf

[SPFDOGS]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6970000/newsid_6972000/6972097.stm?bw=nb&mp=wm&news=1&ms3=6

I may have jumped the gun about the Farmer Boys not using mutts,but Im quite sure that if they used them mutts,it was BEFORE they started messing with bulldogs..Watch the video above..I dont hear ANY mention of staffs..

Our dogs came from the UK over 150+ plus years ago,and were perfected here in the good ol' US of A..There are only a handful of dogs in modern times that have been brought in from the UK that have faired well here..That is a fact..
That cannot be said about dogs from the states being brought to the UK..

[rooster]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6970000/newsid_6972000/6972097.stm?bw=nb&mp=wm&news=1&ms3=6

I may have jumped the gun about the Farmer Boys not using mutts,but Im quite sure that if they used them mutts,it was BEFORE they started messing with bulldogs..Watch the video above..I dont hear ANY mention of staffs..

Our dogs came from the UK over 150+ plus years ago,and were perfected here in the good ol' US of A..There are only a handful of dogs in modern times that have been brought in from the UK that have faired well here..That is a fact..
That cannot be said about dogs from the states being brought to the UK..

Yes I agree about the USA perfecting them (but lets have some respect for their origins). Farmer's boys were breeders from Northern Ireland during and after the troubles. Anyway wasn't taking the piss about you not knowing the Farmer's boys used "battle crosses" and mutss in their breeding, I wouldn't expect you to know. It was just an unfortunate one for you to use as they are well know for just that:). (You are in the USA I would not expect you to know about dogs from a little windy un-important Isle called Ireland).

On those shows I wouldn't worry what they call the dogs, new reporters can't tell the difference between an Irish Staff and a Pit bull terrier (I can because i "know" some of the dogs that are often seen in those programs). Flint was a farmers boy's dog and he came from the same dam that Stormer came from "the old bull bitch" an Irish ebt badger dog and a stafford that jumped the pit!
Anyway i don't want to get into a transatlantic internet battle about whose dogs are better. They are all from the same family lets have mutual respect.
Another link that you may find interesting.
http://keetchs-irish-staffords.com/History_on_Pedigrees/history_on_pedigrees.html

p.s.

In the UK and Irealand it can get confusing for people even in the know as often dogs are called by the same names or even similar name.

[SPFDOGS]

Crossing the APBT with other "closley related" breeds to increase performance in the offspring is rediculous..If its not rediculous than why havent people been using these types off dogs in the so called "fast lane"?.Because when money is on the line you put yourself a a great disatvantage when using anything other than a APBT (kind of like going to Cesars Palace with $100 expecting to hit it big)..I dont condone dogfighting in the least bit,but it is what it is..Dogfighting does exist and the people that par take in such activities dont bring mixed breed dogs..

As far as having respect for the origins of this wonderful breed,I have nothing but the utmost respect for the men and dogs that have made the APBT what it is today..With that being said I also have much respect for many of the other working terriers that put themselves in danger while enjoying every minute of what they are doing (hunting,varmin work,etc)..

You are correct in you assumption that I am not familiar with many of the dogs from the UK..That is because the dog game in the UK doesnt interest me much..Again, not to say that no good dogs reside in the UK,but rather that the best dogs in the world are here in the USA..
As for not listening to what reporters say on those programs, I was refering to what the Farmer Boys themselves,as well as the other active knls were saying..I didnt hear one of them mention any type of Staff..Only APBT..

[IMAT2AK4L]

Not true.

It is often with other APBT but not always.

Frisco Sport who was the best dog on the East coast for a while (and one of the best dogs ever) was an English bull terrier crossed with an early American pit bull terrier. Stormer was also half English bull terrier.

Battle cross is a word to describe more distant lines being crossed just for "battle" and not for breeding. Sometimes distant lines within the same breed and sometimes different breeds. It is done with roosters a lot. Shamo being bred to Asil for example (two different breeds).
A WILDSIDE MALE OF MINE. ACT GREAT. MY OPINION OF A HEAVY BATTLE CROSS.
WILDESIDE'S C.B. AKA CHICO BLANCO:
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=170740

[northern lad]

The only game lines working in the uk are Lee and chocolate king. The farmer boys used mainly imported stock. This didnt always work well so they used some native old reid/patrick lines knocking about. Guess what......they were hard to live with! Game dogs are where you find them. Look at alvin. Great producer and pit general. UK dogs are bred very tight due to limited stock which is how the OFRN originated.

[rooster]

Game dogs are where you find them.

Great quote. So with that comment could we leave out all the nationalism stuff (I lived in Korea for a while and got sick of Koreans saying Korea was the best at everything), There are great dogs in many parts of the world Russia, Phillipines, Thailand, UK, USA. SO like Northern lads says "great dogs are where you find them".

p.s.

Northern lads I love your signature line:D

[AncientKulcha]

Wasn't there another article on battle crosses???

[Bobby Rooster]

IMAT2AK4L What I also call a true battle cross, nothing fancy up front, just out of good ol' bulldogs

mine
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=204885

[AncientKulcha]

Wasn't there another article on battle crosses???
Wasn't there one that talked about hybrids or something like that?????