Consistency in looks

[Pipbull]

I've just been thinking about some stuff since listening to different people talk about different lines, who's not really produced from who, etc. It got me thinking about something. When looking at offspring of a dog, how much should looks matter to determine that it is a good replication of it's parents?

I would think it shouldn't really be a factor if you're just breeding for workiing ability. Just wanted to get others opinions on this. Does the dog looking like it's sire or dam make it a better pic?

A couple comments that have started this have been hearing some people say that Frisco is not sired by Chinaman, with the reasons being that everything out of Frisco looks like him, but Frisco looks nothing like Chinaman.

Another comment is from the other thread with Dr Jitsu's pup. Paying extra for the rednose (I'm guessing because Nico has a red nose). Just a couple things that got me thinking and I'd love to hear other's thoughts on it.

[MinorThreat]

Why use Frisco as en example when he does look how he's bred, he resembles the Bolio side of his blood

Does Honeybuch look like an Eli dog to you? Do any Honeybunch dogs look like Eli dogs? HMM why not?

[SPFDOGS]

Pipbull: Where did you hear that Frisco was not off Chinaman?.

GrCh.Shotsie didnt look like Frisco..Ch.Missy didnt look like Frisco..Elmo & Smilo didnt look like Frisco..See what Im getting at..These dogs were all black and resembled Chinaman more than their own sire..

By any chance did they say who Frisco's real sire was?.

[Pipbull]

Heard it at an ADBA fun show. Now, I'm definitely not the one saying that he isn't off of Chinaman, and I was going to bring up examples of dogs behind Chinaman as an example of where Frisco's looks come from.

The guys who were talking didn't say it, something about when he was sent to Mexico for the breeding. I pretty muched tuned them out when they counted coat color as being able to tell the breeding. Didn't say who the "actual" sire was.

I was thinking about other lines you see, as well. Take the flow down from Buck. You've got:

Buck -> Yellow -> Mayday -> and pretty much anything from him is a duplicate as far as look and type, but not necessarily size.

Are looks any sort of indicator of a good offspring? By good, I mean one that will be a good representative of it's parents and line.

[Big Game]

The color type breeding method says that you should always pick the pup that most resembles the dog youre pedigree is based on and whos traits you are trying to preserve. For example If one is breeding heavy Sixbits dogs. He should keep and breed the ones that most resemble sixbits himself. In other words say you have a litter where 3 young males prove themselfs bulldog. One being all black the second black with some white on the chest band the third being a red w/ black mask. All with the same build. You should choose to keep the black dog with white on his chest. Even if one of the other dogs is the most talented. The theroy is that the dog that has the same build and markings as Sixbits carrys a higher chance of carrying more of his genetic make up. BY selecting dogs this way it is said that you can actuly keep the family tighter on the foundation dogs genetics. Big Game

[Howzit]

I've just been thinking about some stuff since listening to different people talk about different lines, who's not really produced from who, etc. It got me thinking about something. When looking at offspring of a dog, how much should looks matter to determine that it is a good replication of it's parents?

I would think it shouldn't really be a factor if you're just breeding for workiing ability. Just wanted to get others opinions on this. Does the dog looking like it's sire or dam make it a better pic?

A couple comments that have started this have been hearing some people say that Frisco is not sired by Chinaman, with the reasons being that everything out of Frisco looks like him, but Frisco looks nothing like Chinaman.

Another comment is from the other thread with Dr Jitsu's pup. Paying extra for the rednose (I'm guessing because Nico has a red nose). Just a couple things that got me thinking and I'd love to hear other's thoughts on it.

Looks dont matter. If we could all pick the right pup on just looks alone then finding a good one would be real easy LOL. All you can do is just pick the pup that catches your eye and hope he turns out to be a good one. As for picking a pup that looks like the parents anything can happen some do turn out and some dont its still a crap shoot. I seen many scenarious about picking a pup that looks like the parents and majority of them dont turn out like there parents. My friend had a heavy bred Art dog that looked almost exactly like Art but he sure didnt act like him LOL.

[Pipbull]

Just wanted to add this to the discussion, but this is in relation to British game dogs.

(disclaimer: the author says that UK game dogs have higher % than american breeding programs.)

http://freelancepublisher.co.uk/colour_type.htm


Colour Type In Breeding
http://freelancepublisher.co.uk/fire_fox_2_small.jpgMany times colour type selection has been overlooked in breeding game dogs, especially in the USA where I went to visit big yards of dogs from 35 up to 250 dogs at a time. It surprised me that only one or two men did this and they are legends in the breeding of game dogs, these men are Floyd Boudreaux and Jerry Clemments. Over the years we have done the same and with great success, to say the least. If you have lack of space or have a small genetic pool, then you can actually tighten up your blood/family by selecting on type and colour. It is never a guarantee as game dogs come in all colours and shapes, but for instance lets say you where breeding the alligator line, and you only access to say 4 to 10 dogs, then I suggest you use this tecnique to your breeding program. If I breed for Ch. Alligator blood then I want them to look like him in every way, which means black coat, red eyes, long body and all the other qualities this dog was known for. Now I was in the yard of Gary Hammond and he showed me the purest Alligator dog he had, and to my surprise it was a buckskin and white. Although i never said anything out of respect. To me this was a big shock. as I found out that the Alligator breeders over there try to have as much Alligator or his son (Rufus) shown in a pedigree, but they did not select on colour or type.

I realised that the purity of them families dropped by 40% in my mind, as they bred on a paper %. I also realised why they could breed much tighter now than we could, because they stack and pack various amounts of different dogs. With colours from white to brindle, red to buckskin and black in to the genetic pool, the result is a great diversity of different acting and looking dogs out of the same breeding. To my mind this shows a lack of uderstanding in breeding dogs, they see it as a short cut if you are able to keep 50/100/200 dogs . In the US they call this a breeding crap shoot, which more or less confirms their way of thinking on breeding. Now, we have been breeding better dogs % wise in this part of the world , probably because of lack of space and could not afford to feed so many dogs or just had dogs that lacked quality. We have all had are mother or aunty say - "Johnny boy you look and act like your grand-father in every way". In theory you are only carrying 25% of your grand-fathers gene pool, but in real life you could be a throw back to him and be carrying 75/80% of his gene pool, and this how it works in the dogs. Too often people look at the pedigree and not the dog, and breed such and so to such and so - because it looks good on paper and yes then the outcome becomes like a crap shoot. If I breed for the Alligator type of dog, the apple must fall near the tree, he doesn't have to be a duplicate. But the one that resembles him the closest will join the breeding program. You might say his buckskin brother is much better quality than him - why dont you use him?. My answer to that, is a dog like that would be good for the box, but he definitely has a genetic build up of dogs prior to Alligator. I am trying to base my breeding on his colour type and quality, so you can see there is a difference between breeding stock and brood stock. Of course the brood stock must be of the same quality as the stud stock, this you do by weeding out the bad dogs and you will be left with a couple dogs that resemble the original dog you are breeding for.

http://freelancepublisher.co.uk/lks_ronin_small.jpgFrom this foundation stock, this is where your breeding really starts. And you will find your breeding is a hell of a lot tighter, with less breeding needed and you are less dependent on the name of a particular dog. This means that a dog that has Alligator 6 times in his pedigree is much tighter and purer than a dog that has Alligator in his pedigree 12 or 15 times. Recognising type and colour is a very unrecognised tool for breeding good quality game dogs. Another example of of breeding good dogs, or should I say a VERY good example is the Nigerino dogs. I am sure that most of you know this dog, or have at least heard of him. Well take a look at his pedigree, he is 75% Eli Jr and 25% Gr Ch Art. From that Art blood, 50% is Eli too, meaning 50% of Art is Claytons Java. And in the pedigree of Nigerino she is only 12 1/2 % present, but this bitch had a phenomenal influence on Nigerino and Art was his grand daddy. Now Gr Ch Art was red and won all his matches in short order. Some say he was blessed by the Eli Jr style which is true to a certain extent I would say. But Nigerino got his ability, his style, his colour and his conformation from Art. Now Nigerino was a prepotent dog and produced lots and lots of dogs red in colour with black masks like he and Art had. All the way down from Art to Nigerino his grandson who produced his son Red Rover, who produced our bitch Rosey. They are red dogs with a blackish mask and perform in a very quick way. If we start looking at the pedigree the dominant dog by far is Eli Jr, I believe he is there 35 times. If she carries 5 times Gr Ch Nigerino/ Gr Ch Art, then yes she is still an Eli Jr dog. Well nothing could be further from the truth, she is a complete throwback to Gr Ch Nigerino and Gr Ch Art., and there you have your answer I guess. Your questions and papers are inportant of course, but nothing is more inportant than using the type and colour tool, if you are breeding for a certain dog.

JAMES BOND.

[Howzit]

Just wanted to add this to the discussion, but this is in relation to British game dogs.

(disclaimer: the author says that UK game dogs have higher % than american breeding programs.)

http://freelancepublisher.co.uk/colour_type.htm


Colour Type In Breeding
http://freelancepublisher.co.uk/fire_fox_2_small.jpgMany times colour type selection has been overlooked in breeding game dogs, especially in the USA where I went to visit big yards of dogs from 35 up to 250 dogs at a time. It surprised me that only one or two men did this and they are legends in the breeding of game dogs, these men are Floyd Boudreaux and Jerry Clemments. Over the years we have done the same and with great success, to say the least. If you have lack of space or have a small genetic pool, then you can actually tighten up your blood/family by selecting on type and colour. It is never a guarantee as game dogs come in all colours and shapes, but for instance lets say you where breeding the alligator line, and you only access to say 4 to 10 dogs, then I suggest you use this tecnique to your breeding program. If I breed for Ch. Alligator blood then I want them to look like him in every way, which means black coat, red eyes, long body and all the other qualities this dog was known for. Now I was in the yard of Gary Hammond and he showed me the purest Alligator dog he had, and to my surprise it was a buckskin and white. Although i never said anything out of respect. To me this was a big shock. as I found out that the Alligator breeders over there try to have as much Alligator or his son (Rufus) shown in a pedigree, but they did not select on colour or type.

I realised that the purity of them families dropped by 40% in my mind, as they bred on a paper %. I also realised why they could breed much tighter now than we could, because they stack and pack various amounts of different dogs. With colours from white to brindle, red to buckskin and black in to the genetic pool, the result is a great diversity of different acting and looking dogs out of the same breeding. To my mind this shows a lack of uderstanding in breeding dogs, they see it as a short cut if you are able to keep 50/100/200 dogs . In the US they call this a breeding crap shoot, which more or less confirms their way of thinking on breeding. Now, we have been breeding better dogs % wise in this part of the world , probably because of lack of space and could not afford to feed so many dogs or just had dogs that lacked quality. We have all had are mother or aunty say - "Johnny boy you look and act like your grand-father in every way". In theory you are only carrying 25% of your grand-fathers gene pool, but in real life you could be a throw back to him and be carrying 75/80% of his gene pool, and this how it works in the dogs. Too often people look at the pedigree and not the dog, and breed such and so to such and so - because it looks good on paper and yes then the outcome becomes like a crap shoot. If I breed for the Alligator type of dog, the apple must fall near the tree, he doesn't have to be a duplicate. But the one that resembles him the closest will join the breeding program. You might say his buckskin brother is much better quality than him - why dont you use him?. My answer to that, is a dog like that would be good for the box, but he definitely has a genetic build up of dogs prior to Alligator. I am trying to base my breeding on his colour type and quality, so you can see there is a difference between breeding stock and brood stock. Of course the brood stock must be of the same quality as the stud stock, this you do by weeding out the bad dogs and you will be left with a couple dogs that resemble the original dog you are breeding for.

http://freelancepublisher.co.uk/lks_ronin_small.jpgFrom this foundation stock, this is where your breeding really starts. And you will find your breeding is a hell of a lot tighter, with less breeding needed and you are less dependent on the name of a particular dog. This means that a dog that has Alligator 6 times in his pedigree is much tighter and purer than a dog that has Alligator in his pedigree 12 or 15 times. Recognising type and colour is a very unrecognised tool for breeding good quality game dogs. Another example of of breeding good dogs, or should I say a VERY good example is the Nigerino dogs. I am sure that most of you know this dog, or have at least heard of him. Well take a look at his pedigree, he is 75% Eli Jr and 25% Gr Ch Art. From that Art blood, 50% is Eli too, meaning 50% of Art is Claytons Java. And in the pedigree of Nigerino she is only 12 1/2 % present, but this bitch had a phenomenal influence on Nigerino and Art was his grand daddy. Now Gr Ch Art was red and won all his matches in short order. Some say he was blessed by the Eli Jr style which is true to a certain extent I would say. But Nigerino got his ability, his style, his colour and his conformation from Art. Now Nigerino was a prepotent dog and produced lots and lots of dogs red in colour with black masks like he and Art had. All the way down from Art to Nigerino his grandson who produced his son Red Rover, who produced our bitch Rosey. They are red dogs with a blackish mask and perform in a very quick way. If we start looking at the pedigree the dominant dog by far is Eli Jr, I believe he is there 35 times. If she carries 5 times Gr Ch Nigerino/ Gr Ch Art, then yes she is still an Eli Jr dog. Well nothing could be further from the truth, she is a complete throwback to Gr Ch Nigerino and Gr Ch Art., and there you have your answer I guess. Your questions and papers are inportant of course, but nothing is more inportant than using the type and colour tool, if you are breeding for a certain dog.

JAMES BOND.

Again as for picking a pup that looks like the parents anything can happen some do turn out and some dont its still a crap shoot as its never a guarantee as game dogs come in all shapes and colors.

Second a throw back is very rare the chances of you getting a dog just like the parents is slim. Its almost as rare as a albino species of animal.

Third in his disclaimer said that percentage wise UK is better? LOL Please dont make me laugh hahahahahahaha If UK was better then all the top dogmen in USA would be buying dogs from UK but they not but UK is still buying dogs from USA I wonder why? LOL

Fourth he says there you have your answer I guess???? Thats right its only a guess LOL.

Last but not least if you want real bulldogs get em from real dogmen and not from someone who is guessing.

[Pipbull]

Again as for picking a pup that looks like the parents anything can happen some do turn out and some dont its still a crap shoot as its never a guarantee as game dogs come in all shapes and colors.

I think this article is talking about the advantages of developing a family and line of dogs, and how it increases % of good dogs produced.

Second a throw back is very rare the chances of you getting a dog just like the parents is slim.

He discusses dogs throwing back to not just parents, but also grand-parents, etc. Again, stressing the importance of developing type within a line.

Third in his disclaimer said that percentage wise UK is better? LOL Please dont make me laugh hahahahahahaha If UK was better then all the top dogmen in USA would be buying dogs from UK but they not but UK is still buying dogs from USA I wonder why? LOL

That was my disclaimer, not his. :D If you notice, all of the lines mentioned are American.

[Howzit]

[quote=Pipbull;278877]I think this article is talking about the advantages of developing a family and line of dogs, and how it increases % of good dogs produced.

Yeah developing a family or line of dogs based on looks and color.


He discusses dogs throwing back to not just parents, but also grand-parents, etc. Again, stressing the importance of developing type within a line.

Doesnt matter who they throw back to the chances is very slim. Art could produce not because of his color but because of his dogs and bloodline behind him. Yes and by rare chance (throw back) Art threw Nigerino who looked alot like him not only in color but in performance as well but Nigerino has not yet to my knowledge produced a dog as good as himself. Why cause throw backs are RARE especially if you basing it on color type.

That was my disclaimer, not his. :D If you notice, all of the lines mentioned are American.

WOW making false claims. LOL but its all good man to each his own if you wanna breed to a dog with only huge testicals cause you feel his sperm count will be much higher its up to you LOL. J/k just playin.

[Pipbull]

That's what I was confused about at first, because if you were breeding for gameness....coat color be damned, right? But if you were breeding to form a family of dogs that would be inreasingly better producers, % wise, as the generations develop, type (which is not just looks) is crucial to the program. At least, I think that's what the general message of the article is.

Two quotes from the article that address these points in particular:

If I breed for Ch. Alligator blood then I want them to look like him in every way, which means black coat, red eyes, long body and all the other qualities this dog was known for.



If I breed for the Alligator type of dog, the apple must fall near the tree, he doesn't have to be a duplicate. But the one that resembles him the closest will join the breeding program. You might say his buckskin brother is much better quality than him - why dont you use him?. My answer to that, is a dog like that would be good for the box, but he definitely has a genetic build up of dogs prior to Alligator. I am trying to base my breeding on his colour type and quality

[CooljoeGoodie]

So I guess from what this guy is saying,he'll pick the ones that look like what produced them.I can understand that to a point....but IMO this guy isn't breeding for gameness first which is a no no,if you want to sustain quality game dogs.This guy might be peddling dogs and trying to justify his reasoning ,but I maybe wrong but I don't think the talked about gameness or if the did he was basing it off pass dog and not what he's putting on the ground....JMO

[frenchie1936]

Looks dont matter. If we could all pick the right pup on just looks alone then finding a good one would be real easy LOL. All you can do is just pick the pup that catches your eye and hope he turns out to be a good one. As for picking a pup that looks like the parents anything can happen some do turn out and some dont its still a crap shoot. I seen many scenarious about picking a pup that looks like the parents and majority of them dont turn out like there parents. My friend had a heavy bred Art dog that looked almost exactly like Art but he sure didnt act like him LOL.



dude, you really burned my bucket this time. there's only so many times i can listen to you end an assinine post with, and i qoute "LOL". man, you are one uppity, pretentious asshole that has no business here. what do you have to contribute to this board? something other than jackass statements? you're on the fast track bud.

[frenchie1936]

Just wanted to add this to the discussion, but this is in relation to British game dogs.

(disclaimer: the author says that UK game dogs have higher % than american breeding programs.)

http://freelancepublisher.co.uk/colour_type.htm


Colour Type In Breeding
http://freelancepublisher.co.uk/fire_fox_2_small.jpgMany times colour type selection has been overlooked in breeding game dogs, especially in the USA where I went to visit big yards of dogs from 35 up to 250 dogs at a time. It surprised me that only one or two men did this and they are legends in the breeding of game dogs, these men are Floyd Boudreaux and Jerry Clemments. Over the years we have done the same and with great success, to say the least. If you have lack of space or have a small genetic pool, then you can actually tighten up your blood/family by selecting on type and colour. It is never a guarantee as game dogs come in all colours and shapes, but for instance lets say you where breeding the alligator line, and you only access to say 4 to 10 dogs, then I suggest you use this tecnique to your breeding program. If I breed for Ch. Alligator blood then I want them to look like him in every way, which means black coat, red eyes, long body and all the other qualities this dog was known for. Now I was in the yard of Gary Hammond and he showed me the purest Alligator dog he had, and to my surprise it was a buckskin and white. Although i never said anything out of respect. To me this was a big shock. as I found out that the Alligator breeders over there try to have as much Alligator or his son (Rufus) shown in a pedigree, but they did not select on colour or type.

I realised that the purity of them families dropped by 40% in my mind, as they bred on a paper %. I also realised why they could breed much tighter now than we could, because they stack and pack various amounts of different dogs. With colours from white to brindle, red to buckskin and black in to the genetic pool, the result is a great diversity of different acting and looking dogs out of the same breeding. To my mind this shows a lack of uderstanding in breeding dogs, they see it as a short cut if you are able to keep 50/100/200 dogs . In the US they call this a breeding crap shoot, which more or less confirms their way of thinking on breeding. Now, we have been breeding better dogs % wise in this part of the world , probably because of lack of space and could not afford to feed so many dogs or just had dogs that lacked quality. We have all had are mother or aunty say - "Johnny boy you look and act like your grand-father in every way". In theory you are only carrying 25% of your grand-fathers gene pool, but in real life you could be a throw back to him and be carrying 75/80% of his gene pool, and this how it works in the dogs. Too often people look at the pedigree and not the dog, and breed such and so to such and so - because it looks good on paper and yes then the outcome becomes like a crap shoot. If I breed for the Alligator type of dog, the apple must fall near the tree, he doesn't have to be a duplicate. But the one that resembles him the closest will join the breeding program. You might say his buckskin brother is much better quality than him - why dont you use him?. My answer to that, is a dog like that would be good for the box, but he definitely has a genetic build up of dogs prior to Alligator. I am trying to base my breeding on his colour type and quality, so you can see there is a difference between breeding stock and brood stock. Of course the brood stock must be of the same quality as the stud stock, this you do by weeding out the bad dogs and you will be left with a couple dogs that resemble the original dog you are breeding for.

http://freelancepublisher.co.uk/lks_ronin_small.jpgFrom this foundation stock, this is where your breeding really starts. And you will find your breeding is a hell of a lot tighter, with less breeding needed and you are less dependent on the name of a particular dog. This means that a dog that has Alligator 6 times in his pedigree is much tighter and purer than a dog that has Alligator in his pedigree 12 or 15 times. Recognising type and colour is a very unrecognised tool for breeding good quality game dogs. Another example of of breeding good dogs, or should I say a VERY good example is the Nigerino dogs. I am sure that most of you know this dog, or have at least heard of him. Well take a look at his pedigree, he is 75% Eli Jr and 25% Gr Ch Art. From that Art blood, 50% is Eli too, meaning 50% of Art is Claytons Java. And in the pedigree of Nigerino she is only 12 1/2 % present, but this bitch had a phenomenal influence on Nigerino and Art was his grand daddy. Now Gr Ch Art was red and won all his matches in short order. Some say he was blessed by the Eli Jr style which is true to a certain extent I would say. But Nigerino got his ability, his style, his colour and his conformation from Art. Now Nigerino was a prepotent dog and produced lots and lots of dogs red in colour with black masks like he and Art had. All the way down from Art to Nigerino his grandson who produced his son Red Rover, who produced our bitch Rosey. They are red dogs with a blackish mask and perform in a very quick way. If we start looking at the pedigree the dominant dog by far is Eli Jr, I believe he is there 35 times. If she carries 5 times Gr Ch Nigerino/ Gr Ch Art, then yes she is still an Eli Jr dog. Well nothing could be further from the truth, she is a complete throwback to Gr Ch Nigerino and Gr Ch Art., and there you have your answer I guess. Your questions and papers are inportant of course, but nothing is more inportant than using the type and colour tool, if you are breeding for a certain dog.

JAMES BOND.


this is the same article i posted a couple of days ago. i personally do not think the author was saying that U.K. dogs are more game than dogs in the U.S. it was more geared towards the color types as the article stated. JMO

[Pipbull]

....but IMO this guy isn't breeding for gameness first which is a no no,if you want to sustain quality game dogs.

See, that's what I thought, too. But I think it's more than that, especially when he talked about a dog that didn't fit the mold, but was still a good game dog. (in the above quote)

I think the article is discussing that it is still gameness first, but not just gameness.

Like what Big Game said. If you've got three dogs off of Six Bits that all fit the bill of a good bulldog, you would choose only the one that looks like Six Bits, the dog you're modeling your program after, to incorporate into your breeding program.

[Pipbull]

this is the same article i posted a couple of days ago.

Dang, I'm sorry I missed it being posted earlier. Probably would have kept this whole damn thread from being started :D

[frenchie1936]

Dang, I'm sorry I missed it being posted earlier. Probably would have kept this whole damn thread from being started :D

no man, it provided much needed discussion. :D

[Howzit]

That's what I was confused about at first, because if you were breeding for gameness....coat color be damned, right? But if you were breeding to form a family of dogs that would be inreasingly better producers, % wise, as the generations develop, type (which is not just looks) is crucial to the program. At least, I think that's what the general message of the article is.

Two quotes from the article that address these points in particular:
If I breed for Ch. Alligator blood then I want them to look like him in every way, which means black coat, red eyes, long body and all the other qualities this dog was known for.

If I breed for the Alligator type of dog, the apple must fall near the tree, he doesn't have to be a duplicate. But the one that resembles him the closest will join the breeding program. You might say his buckskin brother is much better quality than him - why dont you use him?. My answer to that, is a dog like that would be good for the box, but he definitely has a genetic build up of dogs prior to Alligator. I am trying to base my breeding on his colour type and quality


That bold statement says it all. When breeding you base it on a dogs quality not on color type or looks. Although you can do both you will sacrifice something if you are considering color type and not concentrating all your efforts on quality unless like I said you get a throw back which is very very rare. For example what if the buckskin brother has all of Alligators performance qualitys but just a different color? Are you gonna say naw I will breed to his brother who is the spitting image of Alligator but has little of his performance qualitys. If you do the only thing you throwing back into the line will be color and you will lose the performance attributes.

[Big Game]

So I guess from what this guy is saying,he'll pick the ones that look like what produced them.I can understand that to a point....but IMO this guy isn't breeding for gameness first which is a no no,if you want to sustain quality game dogs.This guy might be peddling dogs and trying to justify his reasoning ,but I maybe wrong but I don't think the talked about gameness or if the did he was basing it off pass dog and not what he's putting on the ground....JMO

The way I understood the artical He did put gameness first. He is only breeding the dogs that prove themselfs game. Considering you have a couple dogs from a litter that prove themselfs to be good dogs. If you have one that is a spitting immage of the dog of whoms traits you are trying to preserve and one that looks more like the dog you are trying to preserves sibling etc.. You should keep and breed off of the one that is a spitting immage of the dog of whoms traits you are trying to preserve. Even if his littermate is more talented.
I am not saying I agree with this method. This is just what I've gatherd from reading up on this subject. This artical and others. Big Game

[Howzit]

dude, you really burned my bucket this time. there's only so many times i can listen to you end an assinine post with, and i qoute "LOL". man, you are one uppity, pretentious asshole that has no business here. what do you have to contribute to this board? something other than jackass statements? you're on the fast track bud.

Wooh now where did that come from? I didnt even address you. Even my post you quoted had nothing offensive in it towards anyone you must have some mental problems or PMS or something take a chill pill calling me asshole and jack ass thats uncalled for you breaking the rules that Marty put up by letting your emotions control your words and getting all DEFENSIVE FOR NO REASON.

[frenchie1936]

Wooh now where did that come from? I didnt even address you. Even my post you quoted had nothing offensive in it towards anyone you must have some mental problems or PMS or something take a chill pill calling me asshole and jack ass thats uncalled for you breaking the rules that Marty put up by letting your emotions control your words and getting all DEFENSIVE FOR NO REASON.



yep. i am a man of few emotions bro. defensive for no reason? i'm sorry, i must have missed the point where you made me feel offensive. you've yet to make a pointless comment about me, however, i call a spade a spade. my eyes work quite well my friend. ;)

[Howzit]

The way I understood the artical He did put gameness first. He is only breeding the dogs that prove themselfs game. Considering you have a couple dogs from a litter that prove themselfs to be good dogs. If you have one that is a spitting immage of the dog of whoms traits you are trying to preserve and one that looks more like the dog you are trying to preserves sibling etc.. You should keep and breed off of the one that is a spitting immage of the dog of whoms traits you are trying to preserve. Even if his littermate is more talented.
I am not saying I agree with this method. This is just what I've gatherd from reading up on this subject. This artical and others. Big Game


am not saying I agree with this method. This is just what I've gatherd from reading up on this subject. This artical and others. Big Game

At least we agree on something.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Howzit]

yep. i am a man of few emotions bro. defensive for no reason? i'm sorry, i must have missed the point where you made me feel offensive. you've yet to make a pointless comment about me, however, i call a spade a spade. my eyes work quite well my friend. ;)

So you admit it attacking me for no REAL reason just to be mean huh?. WOW and Marty reprimanded me with the #6 rule lol.

Pipbull and I was having a good discussion untill you had to but your nose in it.

[frenchie1936]

So you admit it attacking me for no REAL reason just to be mean huh?. WOW and Marty reprimanded me with the #6 rule lol.


marty is an intelligent man and will do what he feels is prudent to the continuing survival of this very valuable message board. so keep on bud:D


p.s. good luck to you and your dogs bud. YIS, L

[Howzit]

marty is an intelligent man and will do what he feels is prudent to the continuing survival of this very valuable message board. so keep on bud:D


p.s. good luck to you and your dogs bud. YIS, L

Yes true Marty is a intelligent man and if he is a FAIR one as well he would ban you also if he does ban me as since the reprimand I havent attacked anyone directly unlike you Frenchie who just broke rule #6. Good luck with your dogs also hope you find the right cross for your Eli blood.

[CooljoeGoodie]

Now correct me if I'm wrong,but aren't you supposed to try and improve or at least maintain the quality of dogs.The said names dogs don't all look alike,they might have similar fetchers as far as looks....So why would you just bred the ones that only look like their parents,by doing that you may miss out on improving on your line sooner than later if at all,cause the one you pass on may produce better than the look alike....maybe it's like in humans were the black pigmentation is stronger and that's why you get all black dogs.Just trying to rap my head around this thing ....I see it but I think it's flawed in the selections of gameness over looks,always breed the better dog....

[Howzit]

Now correct me if I'm wrong,but aren't you supposed to try and improve or at least maintain the quality of dogs.The said names dogs don't all look alike,they might have similar fetchers as far as looks....So why would you just bred the ones that only look like their parents,by doing that you may miss out on improving on your line sooner than later if at all,cause the one you pass on may produce better than the look alike....maybe it's like in humans were the black pigmentation is stronger and that's why you get all black dogs.Just trying to rap my head around this thing ....I see it but I think it's flawed in the selections of gameness over looks,always breed the better dog....

Exactly I totally agree.

[CooljoeGoodie]

See, that's what I thought, too. But I think it's more than that, especially when he talked about a dog that didn't fit the mold, but was still a good game dog. (in the above quote)

I think the article is discussing that it is still gameness first, but not just gameness.

Like what Big Game said. If you've got three dogs off of Six Bits that all fit the bill of a good bulldog, you would choose only the one that looks like Six Bits, the dog you're modeling your program after, to incorporate into your breeding program.I wouldn't model my dog after looks,all three would have a chance to show what they can produce...to me doing it the other way,that's like the long way of the long way.lol

[frenchie1936]

Yes true Marty is a intelligent man and if he is a FAIR one as well he would ban you also if he does ban me as since the reprimand I havent attacked anyone directly unlike you Frenchie who just broke rule #6. Good luck with your dogs also hope you find the right cross for your Eli blood.



yeah, maybe one day i will be blessed enough to come across the right cross for my dogs. one day.....

[Big Game]

I don't whole heartedly agree with this method. However I wouldent say there is nothing to it. One of those things that make you say hmmmm. If I had two Littermates off of lets say Art. Equal Quality. One black & looks alot like eli jr in color and build. One W/ same markings and build as Art. If Im trying to preserve the traits and charicteristics as Art himself, as an individual. Why not go with the look-a-like. If I am More a fan of Eli Jr as a individual Vs. Art, Why not go with the dog that looks like a throwback to Eli Jr. Just food for thought. Like I said "makes you go Hmmmm''.

[Pipbull]

Now correct me if I'm wrong,but aren't you supposed to try and improve or at least maintain the quality of dogs. So why would you just bred the ones that only look like their parents,by doing that you may miss out on improving on your line sooner than later if at all,cause the one you pass on may produce better than the look alike.

I don't think he's saying that this is the quicker way at all. But I think that what's said in the article is that you can make what you produce more consistent when you go by the method he describes. Now, if it is consistently producing curs, there's a whole 'nother argument :p But I don't think that would happen if you were still putting gameness before the looks, which the author seems to be doing.

I'd love to hear some experienced breeders chime in on this topic.

[Big Game]

I'd love to hear some experienced breeders chime in on this topic.

Me also. Big Game

[Pipbull]

*cough cough* someone call IM *cough cough*

lol

[Howzit]

I don't whole heartedly agree with this method. However I wouldent say there is nothing to it. One of those things that make you say hmmmm. If I had two Littermates off of lets say Art. Equal Quality. One black & looks alot like eli jr in color and build. One W/ same markings and build as Art. If Im trying to preserve the traits and charicteristics as Art himself, as an individual. Why not go with the look-a-like. If I am More a fan of Eli Jr as a individual Vs. Art, Why not go with the dog that looks like a throwback to Eli Jr. Just food for thought. Like I said "makes you go Hmmmm''.

Nothing wrong with that if they are of EQUAL QUALITY. Then you can pick secondary traits to your liking like color,size etc...but in that article he states that things are NOT equal that the buck skin brother is the better dog. Also the chances of you to have two closely good equal dogs in a litter usually is a rare luxury then you can afford to be picky to secondary traits but all main traits should be put first.

[frenchie1936]

*cough cough* someone call IM *cough cough*

lol



good to see we all still have a sense of humor. hard to come by these days. holy shit, i have to work in 4 hours. night yall. :)

[Howzit]

I'd love to hear some experienced breeders chime in on this topic.

Me also. Big Game

Yeah me too....but I doubt there are any real breeders on this site LOL

[Mr Mark]

Gentleman, this article is just a guideline it's not an absolute! Boudreaux and Clemmons used these guidelines and they were very successful. Of course you can make adjustments and vary from this theory, if you didn't than you would definately overlook some good dogs at times.

However, the theory makes sense. It's not just color that you look for. You need to look at confirmation, temperment, size, and style! In order to do this you need to hold onto your pups for awhile at least. For example, if I am looking for another Chinaman, than I want a dog that is probably black, the same confirmation, close to 46lbs, speed, agility, hard mouth, etc. The more characteristics in common than the more likely the pup carries a similar genetic make-up of the dog you are looking to replicate. Of course, if the pup was to have all the above traits, but a red coat than I need to be able to recognize that this pup is very similar except for color. His genetic make-up is still probably closer than a black dog with only maybe one other similar trait.

So, what i'm trying to write, lol, is that you want to get a pup (they're pups till they're close to 2 years, btw) with as many of the same traits as the dog you are looking to replicate in hopes that it carries a closer genetic make-up!

Now, if you are just picking from a litter of 8 week olds than, like some others have stated, it is just a crap shoot!

[cheese]

http://www.game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?p=138578#post138578
This thread seems relevant

[Claddagh_Reds]

*cough cough* someone call IM *cough cough*

lol


LOL I know exactly what he'd say, but I doubt some on here would like it and have to argue

[game_test]

Yeah me too....but I doubt there are any real breeders on this site LOL


with the exception of you, obviously.

[Howzit]

Doubt all you want.

So what is it ok for all of you to make jokes and not me? I tell you thats what I mean about letting your emotions blind you from the TRUTH.

REAL DOG MEN SEEK THE TRUTH

POSERS MAKE UP THERE OWN TRUTH

ASK YOUR SELF WHICH CATAGORY DO YOU FALL IN?

Also if I remember correctly you the same rockstar that use to make his own rock music and post it for everyone to listen? Thats the only thing that stands out from you that I remember lol.

[Claddagh_Reds]

I think we can all agree with this ... yes, breeding is a crap shot.
Everyone has different ways of breeding, what they breed for, what they want to hopefully get out of that breeding right?

All our "Theories" can be proven or disproven in a couple breedings. you may breed once and have it work, breed again and no such luck. You may hit the jackpot every time, you may not. One must take into consideration not only the dogs they are breeding but the pedigree as well.

I do not think there is any use in arguing over it anymore. Because I honestly do not think there is any one "correct" way, it is simply what ever works with the dogs you are using.

And as far as real dogmen seeking the truth? How can you seek the truth when the "Real" dogmen did their best at times to hide the breedings behind their dogs?

[Pipbull]

I do not think there is any use in arguing over it anymore. Because I honestly do not think there is any one "correct" way, it is simply what ever works with the dogs you are using.

I agree, I just like getting as much information as I can.

And I swear, if there were K's instead of C's in some of these posts, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a few of the trolls here.

[CooljoeGoodie]

And as far as real dogmen seeking the truth? How can you seek the truth when the "Real" dogmen did their best at times to hide the breedings behind their dogs?/...........Now that is something to think about right there,kind of like drag racing on a Saturday night ,won't nobody tell you what they got under their hood...Back then I imagine the competition was wide open and hell to win,so every advantage helped huh...Thanks CR..great point.....

[Howzit]

[quote=Claddagh_Reds;278983]I think we can all agree with this ... yes, breeding is a crap shot.
Everyone has different ways of breeding, what they breed for, what they want to hopefully get out of that breeding right?


Yes I agree also


All our "Theories" can be proven or disproven in a couple breedings. you may breed once and have it work, breed again and no such luck. You may hit the jackpot every time, you may not. One must take into consideration not only the dogs they are breeding but the pedigree as well.

I agree about the pedirgree as well but hitting the jack pot is very rare.

I do not think there is any use in arguing over it anymore. Because I honestly do not think there is any one "correct" way, it is simply what ever works with the dogs you are using.

I wouldnt say correct way but there are ways to get it done faster or to accomplish your goals faster if done a certain way.

And as far as real dogmen seeking the truth? How can you seek the truth when the "Real" dogmen did their best at times to hide the breedings behind their dogs?

You start by seeking the truth in your own dogs and not worry about anyone elses.

[Big Game]

So what is it ok for all of you to make jokes and not me? I tell you thats what I mean about letting your emotions blind you from the TRUTH.

REAL DOG MEN SEEK THE TRUTH

POSERS MAKE UP THERE OWN TRUTH

ASK YOUR SELF WHICH CATAGORY DO YOU FALL IN?

Also if I remember correctly you the same rockstar that use to make his own rock music and post it for everyone to listen? Thats the only thing that stands out of you lol.



Rockstar is one of the most knowlidgable Members of this site. He could school me, You, and most other members of this site. You made yet another offensive pompus remark. All he said to you in response was "doubt all you want" And you personaly attacked him. Rule 6 Howzit..Rule 6!!!!! lol

[Howzit]

Rockstar is one of the most knowlidgable Members of this site. He could school me, You, and most other members of this site. You made yet another offensive pompus remark. All he said to you in response was "doubt all you want" And you personaly attacked him. Rule 6 Howzit..Rule 6!!!!! lol

I said he use to make rock music how is that attacking him? Oh and by the way I use to school out Rockstar before as well long time ago and I still can today.

What just cause he has lots of post and been on here a long time makes him a pro? Yeah right dont make me laugh hahahahahahahahaha.

[Big Game]

No, because I actualy learn from his post. In youre own mind there is no one that can school the great Howsit. A little Modesty could go a long way. I've seen a Known & highly respected dogman get baned for having an abrasive personality. I have no idea how you are still here. OH well.....I'm sure youre time is limited.

[Big Game]

So what is it ok for all of you to make jokes and not me? I tell you thats what I mean about letting your emotions blind you from the TRUTH.

REAL DOG MEN SEEK THE TRUTH

POSERS MAKE UP THERE OWN TRUTH

ASK YOUR SELF WHICH CATAGORY DO YOU FALL IN?

Also if I remember correctly you the same rockstar that use to make his own rock music and post it for everyone to listen? Thats the only thing that stands out of you lol.

Wait a minite.... I've ben wrong about you the whole time. You are someone to look up to. Look everybody it's Don Mayfield reincarnated. Rotfl:D

[Big Game]

Shool him like you did me ????? lol Go ahead Hozit get in the last word. Lol I'm done with this thread

[Howzit]

No, because I actualy learn from his post. In youre own mind there is no one that can school the great Howsit. A little Modesty could go a long way. I've seen a vary respected dogman get baned for having an abrasive personality. I have no idea how you are still here. OH well.....I'm sure youre time is limited.

Having an abrasive personality? So what is Frenchies remarks non abrasive? She still here also she said F'in to me and some other dude every body seen that and she still not banned? I have no idea also how frenchie is still here after she said straight from her mouth she dont care is she gets banned and started cussing and swearing at me for no reason at all? Why is my time limited I aint breaking rule #6 anymore then you all are doing. Except for frenchie who blantantly disregarded rule #6. Again yall blind to see the truth you let your emotions do your judging for you. You see only want you want to see and not the whole picture. Im not mad at anyone I just tell it straight like it is instead of sugar coating it or beating around the bush but it seems most of you cant handle the truth.

[Pipbull]

What just cause he has lots of post and been on here a long time makes him a pro? Yeah right dont make me laugh hahahahahahahahaha.

LMWAO....

Howzit, look....you've never proven an ounce of cred to anyone here that you're worth the weight of the shit you talk. But you will rebut that you don't need to tell everyone what is. Well, your excuse may be just that, an excuse to not show that you don't know that much about dogs. Having a lot of posts on a message board doesn't make someone a pro for sure. But maybe if you read some of those posts, you may learn something ;)

[Howzit]

LMWAO....

Howzit, look....you've never proven an ounce of cred to anyone here that you're worth the weight of the shit you talk. But you will rebut that you don't need to tell everyone what is. Well, your excuse may be just that, an excuse to not show that you don't know that much about dogs. Having a lot of posts on a message board doesn't make someone a pro for sure. But maybe if you read some of those posts, you may learn something ;)

Maybe if you read my posts carefully with out using emotions to blind you from the truth you might just see what Im talking about.

For example if I dont like someone even to the point where I hate his damn guts if he post a good post that I agree with Im gonna say I agree with him or hit the thank you button instead of using my emotions too not agree with him just because I dont like that person because if you do you just lying to your ownself and not seeking the truth due to your emotional state of mind. I even agreed with BigGame on certain posts not because I using my emotions by wanting him to be my friend or like me or anything its because I feel that he is right.

My mentor once told me when you play in this dog game its not the dogs that you gotta worry about its the people that mess up the game its because they bring all there emotions with them that blinds them to the truth. If you wanna be successful in this dog game leave all that emotional crap at home and seek the truth.

[Claddagh_Reds]

Everyone has their own idea of what the truth is ... and that is coming from personal experiece of talking with real dogmen who all have different methods for obtaining what they are doing. One does this, the other thinks thats not right and does something else. Neither is wrong however. One just does what works for them.

[Iron Mike]

Pipbull, hey .....ahhh to many experts on here for me to comment.
Let them believe what they want on breeding and who is off who.
I'm not feeding it or showing it so I don't care.
Never met a dog that knew how to read yet so it never knew the other dog was suppose to win because of it's pedigree.:p:)

Color? naw, could care less, unless it was green. :cool:
Winning is much better then losing. If someone don't mind losing then I'll show you a loser.

This thread is the kind of thread I avoid.
Things of this matter is of opinion. I express with only the people I feel will understand it and take it to heart.
Besides there never was a great breeder, only lucky ones or ones who threw enough crap against the wall and see what stuck!