Papers Dont Make Dogz, Dogz Make A Paper

[lumberjack]

People should more be concerned on dog himself rather than on the papers of the dog. That means to search something you like with your own eyes not from other people stories, because what is good for me maybe its not good for you opinions are different, like we are that's why people compete in first place to prove something in practice not teoric whey. because on paper you can do whatever you want its just paper but practical thing is something completely different.
Second thing is breeding and production of dogs you see that in this they people first put papers than breed, in past first they breed and than dog get papers if he deserved. That is reason why breeding of pit bulls in this days became a big business for some people and big lose to game itself.
Today there is so much falls CH and GR CH they put rolls like match or just find some false witnesses and judge.
They became business people and they are driven by $$$$ not by game and gameness.
Some of net breeders with fancy papers all green red and yellow with touch of blue sell around 50 puppies a year.
People remember what is purpose of game. To Test by eyes not by paper,
to school, keep and breed only best in full meaning of that word.
Dogs in past came not from papers and pedigrees they came from peoples work to get better , stronger , faster ,more intelligent by testing and schooling them that whey.
In this days many people went in opposite direction because they never learned better whey.
And keep one thing in mind paper will never make dog, but dog will make not just a paper some of them made and still making books.
So think hard, before you get a dog from somebody.
And try to help people who think same.

[Bullyson]

That was by far the most scattered shit Ive ever read. Still, I TOTALLY get it and I TOTALLY agree. Good points there lumberjack!:) You should introduce yourself in the introductions thread though. Kinda rude to walk in and just start spouting off beliefs without an introduction ya know? Regaurdless, good point!! YIS, DJ.People should more be concernd on dog himself rather than on the papers of the dog. That means to search something you like with your own eyes not from other people stories, becouse what is good for me maybe its not good for you opinunes are difrent, like we are thats why people compete in firsist place to prove something in practic not teoric whey. becouse on paper you acn do whatever you want its just paper but practic thing is somethin complitly difrent.
Second thing is breeding and production of dogs you see that in this they people firist put papers than breed, in past firist they breed and than dog get papres if he deserved. That is reson why breeding of pit bulls in this days became a big bussiness for some people and big lose to game itself.
Today there is so much falls CH and GR CH they put rolls like match or just find some fallsa vitneses and judge.
They became bussines people and they are driven by $$$$ not by game and gamness.
Some of net breeders with fancy papers all green red and yellow with touch of blue sell around 50 puppies a year.
People remember what is perpose of game. To Test by eyes not by paper,
to school, keep and breed only best in full meaning of that word.
Dogs in past came not from papers and pedigrees they came from peoples work to get better , stronger , faster ,more inteligent by testing and scooling them that whey.
In this days many people went in oposite direction becouse they never learned better whey.
And keep one thing in mind paper will never make dog, but dog will make not just a paper some of them made and still making books.
So think hard, before you get a dog from somebody.
And try to help people who think same.

[frenchie1936]

i'm on the same page with DJ on this one. half of that shit i didn't understand and the rest just made me think you were some pretentious, uppity, asshole that must have been in the dogs for what like sixty years now? i think i could only understand one point you made and it was something the majority of people on this board are already very aware of.

[Highbloodbulldog]

People should more be concernd on dog himself rather than on the papers of the dog. That means to search something you like with your own eyes not from other people stories, becouse what is good for me maybe its not good for you opinunes are difrent, like we are thats why people compete in firsist place to prove something in practic not teoric whey. becouse on paper you acn do whatever you want its just paper but practic thing is somethin complitly difrent.
Second thing is breeding and production of dogs you see that in this they people firist put papers than breed, in past firist they breed and than dog get papres if he deserved. That is reson why breeding of pit bulls in this days became a big bussiness for some people and big lose to game itself.
Today there is so much falls CH and GR CH they put rolls like match or just find some fallsa vitneses and judge.
They became bussines people and they are driven by $$$$ not by game and gamness.
Some of net breeders with fancy papers all green red and yellow with touch of blue sell around 50 puppies a year.
People remember what is perpose of game. To Test by eyes not by paper,
to school, keep and breed only best in full meaning of that word.
Dogs in past came not from papers and pedigrees they came from peoples work to get better , stronger , faster ,more inteligent by testing and scooling them that whey.
In this days many people went in oposite direction becouse they never learned better whey.
And keep one thing in mind paper will never make dog, but dog will make not just a paper some of them made and still making books.
So think hard, before you get a dog from somebody.
And try to help people who think same.


Hard to understand, but I agree.
Nothing you said here is strange to any breeder that take his working with bulldogs seriously, perhaps it will be VERY difficult to see many high quality bulldogs as we seen before in same scale, it's more probably that the "real deals" bulldogs become extincted in some years... or several years...
Many breeders today have only papers to breed, at least they're doing something... worse are those ones that have hippos and say to everyone that "my pit bull is a zebo/colby crossing"... THIS IS PRETTY AND REALLY SAD...
For me personally, a real game bulldog even need a paper... but I can't say anymore that it's totally wrong... in front of that bully mutations "breeding", this is nothing wrong...
Real breeders trade with real dogs with papers or not.
Dog sellers trade only with papers.
:)

[ABK]

I don't buy that bull. And here is why:

Yes, bulldogs (or any working dog) should be evalutated on performance alone.

That being said, papers DO make a difference. For example, let someone w/ a CKC dog come on here. No matter how good their dog is, they will get lamblasted to kingdom come by 99.9% of the folks here for having a CKC reg. dog.

Heck, I'm willing to bet most folks on this board wouldn't even TRY to find out how good the dog was. As soon at they see "CKC" the dog is automatically pre-judged as mixed bred junk.

But papers don't matter, right ...?

So please do not try to blow that happy, teddy bear, rainbow crap about papers not making a difference up my butt. They do & we all know it, although some may not want to admit it.

JMHO ...

[bahamutt99]

Papers don't make the dog, but if you plan on breeding that dog, it helps to know what's behind it, right? Because typically, what's behind that dog will have at least some bearing on what it will produce. (I know that in an era of false papers, we don't always know that what's on those papers is true, but still...)

[Bullyson]

It all comes down to having a reputable breeder. If you know who you're getting your dog from and what they're about, papers don't mean squat. If you peddle puppies, papers are a must... unless you're one of the million cockroaches that sell 100 dollar byb mutts. I could give a damn about ADBA, UKC, CKC or any of em. I know where my dogs come from and IMO, everyone that owns this breed should.

[kinggatorpits]

Honestly in today's age and time most papers aren't worth wiping your ass with IMO. I have several dogs with hand written peds and have a few dogs with adba papers and would trade for more of the ones without papers any given day of the week.

[oldtimebullylove]

People should more be concerned on dog himself rather than on the papers of the dog. That means to search something you like with your own eyes not from other people stories, because what is good for me maybe its not good for you opinions are different, like we are that's why people compete in first place to prove something in practice not teoric whey. because on paper you can do whatever you want its just paper but practical thing is something completely different.
Second thing is breeding and production of dogs you see that in this they people first put papers than breed, in past first they breed and than dog get papers if he deserved. That is reason why breeding of pit bulls in this days became a big business for some people and big lose to game itself.
Today there is so much falls CH and GR CH they put rolls like match or just find some false witnesses and judge.
They became business people and they are driven by $$$$ not by game and gameness.
Some of net breeders with fancy papers all green red and yellow with touch of blue sell around 50 puppies a year.
People remember what is purpose of game. To Test by eyes not by paper,
to school, keep and breed only best in full meaning of that word.
Dogs in past came not from papers and pedigrees they came from peoples work to get better , stronger , faster ,more intelligent by testing and schooling them that whey.
In this days many people went in opposite direction because they never learned better whey.
And keep one thing in mind paper will never make dog, but dog will make not just a paper some of them made and still making books.
So think hard, before you get a dog from somebody.
And try to help people who think same.
.
Well, I must say! That was some jacked up shit you posted there, but like the others I "think" I see your point and agree. I think it is safe to say we all know the "old" saying. "Papers do not make the dog, the dog makes the paper" ;)

[ColbyDogs]

I think a good example here would be Gr Ch "35" . That dog proved his weight in gold and had no papers to back him up. Sadly enough he was bred and nothing good ever came from it. I think without papers and really not knowing where the dog came from only creates obsticles when trying to start a solid breeding program.

By not knowing you might be adding more of the bad genes further pushing you away from where you want to be. Now I know if you really know your dog you should also know what is missing by eye and be able to find the missing link on your own trial and error. However I will say it is nice to have papers for a good starting point cause then you know where the falts come from. JMHO

[Highbloodbulldog]

I think a good example here would be Gr Ch "35" . That dog proved his weight in gold and had no papers to back him up. Sadly enough he was bred and nothing good ever came from it. I think without papers and really not knowing where the dog came from only creates obsticles when trying to start a solid breeding program.

By not knowing you might be adding more of the bad genes further pushing you away from where you want to be. Now I know if you really know your dog you should also know what is missing by eye and be able to find the missing link on your own trial and error. However I will say it is nice to have papers for a good starting point cause then you know where the falts come from. JMHO

Yes, totally agree with you.

As 35, the real blood of Zebo is a totally mistery untill today, and was the first dog to conquer the 3 great honors of gamedog sports - ROM, GR CH and member of Bulldog Hall of Fame.

[SPF]

It all comes down to having a reputable breeder. If you know who you're getting your dog from and what they're about, papers don't mean squat. If you peddle puppies, papers are a must... unless you're one of the million cockroaches that sell 100 dollar byb mutts. I could give a damn about ADBA, UKC, CKC or any of em. I know where my dogs come from and IMO, everyone that owns this breed should.

Well said.....I could care less about the paper work on a dog as long as I know who his sire & dam are,and who bred the dog.. I have NEVER sent the paperwork in until the dog has proven his worth anyways,and as of 2004 I havent registered a dog with any registry..

[Big Game]

People should more be concerned on dog himself rather than on the papers of the dog. That means to search something you like with your own eyes not from other people stories, because what is good for me maybe its not good for you opinions are different, like we are that's why people compete in first place to prove something in practice not teoric whey. because on paper you can do whatever you want its just paper but practical thing is something completely different.
Second thing is breeding and production of dogs you see that in this they people first put papers than breed, in past first they breed and than dog get papers if he deserved. That is reason why breeding of pit bulls in this days became a big business for some people and big lose to game itself.
Today there is so much falls CH and GR CH they put rolls like match or just find some false witnesses and judge.
They became business people and they are driven by $$$$ not by game and gameness.
Some of net breeders with fancy papers all green red and yellow with touch of blue sell around 50 puppies a year.
People remember what is purpose of game. To Test by eyes not by paper,
to school, keep and breed only best in full meaning of that word.
Dogs in past came not from papers and pedigrees they came from peoples work to get better , stronger , faster ,more intelligent by testing and schooling them that whey.
In this days many people went in opposite direction because they never learned better whey.
And keep one thing in mind paper will never make dog, but dog will make not just a paper some of them made and still making books.
So think hard, before you get a dog from somebody.
And try to help people who think same.
.

I agree 100% Good post. The dog makes the papers,not the other way around. This cant be said enuf. Now go introduce youreself......We don't know you M-A-N!!!

[doglady]

I don't exactly know what heck you said exactly, but here is my opinion on papers... The individual dog is of course the most important, but you may have a "super dog" that can't produce crap because he is out of some scatterbred junk unworthy of being bred in the first place. Pedigree is VERY important because your chances of CONSISTANTLY producing superior dogs begins with a superior pedigree. The better the dogs in the pedigree, the better your chances of great dogs. Any long time breeder knows this and if pedigree was not important, no one would line breed or inbreed to get desired dogs.

[Big Game]

I don't exactly know what heck you said exactly, but here is my opinion on papers... The individual dog is of course the most important, but you may have a "super dog" that can't produce crap because he is out of some scatterbred junk unworthy of being bred in the first place. Pedigree is VERY important because your chances of CONSISTANTLY producing superior dogs begins with a superior pedigree. The better the dogs in the pedigree, the better your chances of great dogs. Any long time breeder knows this and if pedigree was not important, no one would line breed or inbreed to get desired dogs.

He did not say Line breeding and inbreeding were not importan tools when breeding dogs. Nor did he say that not knowing the linniage of youre dog was the right way to go about breeding dogs. He also never advokated the breeding of dogs with unknown linniage, or commented on how a dog with unknown pedigree's quality would be as a producer. The point of his thred was simple. The dog makes the pedigree , The pedigree dosent make the dog. The op needs to work on there spelling( god knows i need to work on mine) and/or engilish.lol. That s#it was hard to read. Other than that, I'd say his post was right on. Big Game

[SPF]

I don't buy that bull. And here is why:

Yes, bulldogs (or any working dog) should be evalutated on performance alone.

That being said, papers DO make a difference. For example, let someone w/ a CKC dog come on here. No matter how good their dog is, they will get lamblasted to kingdom come by 99.9% of the folks here for having a CKC reg. dog.

Heck, I'm willing to bet most folks on this board wouldn't even TRY to find out how good the dog was. As soon at they see "CKC" the dog is automatically pre-judged as mixed bred junk.

But papers don't matter, right ...?

So please do not try to blow that happy, teddy bear, rainbow crap about papers not making a difference up my butt. They do & we all know it, although some may not want to admit it.

JMHO ...


In my opinion there is only one reason why someone would register their dog with the CKC,and that is that they dont know how the dog is bred yet want to mislead people into thinking that the dog is "papered"..There might be other instances where one would want to reg their dog with this outfit,but I'd bet they were in the minority..

ABK: Why do papers make a difference to YOU?.

I know many dogmen that dont register their dogs..The owner of Ch.Casino stood in my yard and told me he NEVER registered his dogs( and he's owned some good ones),and he has ran with some of the big boys back in the day..Read the background on GrCh.AwsomeBeast..SU didnt backtrack and get the paperwork on the dog until AFTER he made GrCh. and it was time to start MAKING MONEY (stud fees,pup sales)..

Paper chasers are usually the ones trying to sell pups and/or brag about dogs 3-4-5 generations back in the pedigree of their dog..

[SPF]

I don't exactly know what heck you said exactly, but here is my opinion on papers... The individual dog is of course the most important, but you may have a "super dog" that can't produce crap because he is out of some scatterbred junk unworthy of being bred in the first place. Pedigree is VERY important because your chances of CONSISTANTLY producing superior dogs begins with a superior pedigree. The better the dogs in the pedigree, the better your chances of great dogs. Any long time breeder knows this and if pedigree was not important, no one would line breed or inbreed to get desired dogs.


The pedigree on a dog IS important..The paperwork IS NOT..

[Chef-Kergin]

good posts spf.

i shredded the aadr papers for my dog before sending them in...had em filled out, signed, check in hand, and decided against it. a conversation i'd had with someone prior to that helped influence my decision, but they had sound logic.

i know how her sire and dam are bred, and how she is.

don't think i'll ever register my dog(s) unless i planned on showing them in the adba. i believe i'll always know where they came from, and if i ever get to the point in my life where i wish to try and improve the dogs by breeding them, i'll be in a position to keep the litter myself, and they won't be registered either.

[lumberjack]

Some people here misunderstood point in my worrning but I belive good part of people didn't.
I am not a person who want to insult nobody, like frenchy insolt me.
I just try to help people with advice, that was point of my post if someone found him self insolted in my post please accept my apologies.

[14rock]

but you may have a "super dog" that can't produce crap because he is out of some scatterbred junk unworthy of being bred in the first place.

If the breeding produced a "super dog" how can you say it was unworthy of being bred? Seems to me, it produced, where many pretty papered breedings have been made to never produce a "super dog".

[ABK]

SPF: Papers are important to me b/c I show/pull my dogs. Without papers you cannot do this in the clubs in my area.

But they are not the end-all & be-all to me. I once was going to try to either breed to or get a pup off Booney's GR.CH. Sport & he wasn't papered.

That being said, to say papers don't matter is a crock. As I said before, all someone needs to do is come on here & say they have a CKC dog or an ADR dog or whatever, & 99.9% of the ppl will bash the living tar out of them before they even find out if the dog is any good or not.

So if papers don't matter, why judge a dog on them? But folks do it every day ...

[Bullyson]

I think the point being made is knowing your dogs ped is important. Having the actual paperwork isnt. I see where it would be to those who show though. YIS, D.SPF: Papers are important to me b/c I show/pull my dogs. Without papers you cannot do this in the clubs in my area.

But they are not the end-all & be-all to me. I once was going to try to either breed to or get a pup off Booney's GR.CH. Sport & he wasn't papered.

That being said, to say papers don't matter is a crock. As I said before, all someone needs to do is come on here & say they have a CKC dog or an ADR dog or whatever, & 99.9% of the ppl will bash the living tar out of them before they even find out if the dog is any good or not.

So if papers don't matter, why judge a dog on them? But folks do it every day ...

[Red Cocaine]

I think the point being made is knowing your dogs ped is important. Having the actual paperwork isnt. I see where it would be to those who show though. YIS, D.

WHO you get the Dog from IS THE SINGLE most important thing... ABK no self respecting Honest Honorable Breeder of High Caliber Dogs is going to go with the CKC as a registrar..... My personal Top three People That I look up to in the dog game, Hand write their peds.. no need to pay someone else to keep your own records... For some reason People need the feeling that what they are getting is authentic, thats why people want papers isn't it....? Well if you have that untrusting feeling towards the breeder then WHY ARE YOU GETTING A DOG FROM THEM???? If the people that i want a dog from tell me that This dog right here is an Honest bulldog.. then i have faith in that person... If i didn't i wouldn't be getting the dog from that person... Papers Prove nothing... NO peace of paper ever made a dog a better hunter out on the field.

Papers are good for only one thing IMO (well Two really) One is peddling pups and the other is wiping your ass... Too many people do one of them and not enough of the other....


Y.I.S.
B. Robert Dick

[Boze]

i know people say papers do not make the dog, but don't you have to start from somewhere i mean if papers did not matter a little what would be the poin of linebreeing an such, i mean if you had to scatterbred ch one female one male with no papers would you breed them. now i am no breeder and really have no idea what would make a good breeding but having a breeding a certain bloodline is done so you have some idea of how the litter will turn out. i could be totally wrong but that is how i look at it

[Red Cocaine]

i know people say papers do not make the dog, but don't you have to start from somewhere i mean if papers did not matter a little what would be the poin of linebreeing an such, i mean if you had to scatterbred ch one female one male with no papers would you breed them. now i am no breeder and really have no idea what would make a good breeding but having a breeding a certain bloodline is done so you have some idea of how the litter will turn out. i could be totally wrong but that is how i look at it

It all boils down to WHO you get the dog from.... Not having papers and not knowing the breeding of said dogs are two different things... What does breeding have to do with hunting your DOG??? Nothing..... Leave the Breeding to the Breeders..... They are the only ones that should be breeding... Winnig a feild trial with a GREAT DOG and breeding dogs that will win in the feild should be done while wearing two diff. hats....

If you have the time and space to take chances on unknown and or scatter bred stock... then try your luck and do whatever flouts yer boat.... is it the best idea? NO... I would get dogs from someone with a proven family of dogs... THAT I TRUST....if i want to get into the breeding of hunting dogs.... The Best to the Best FROM THE BEST that was FROM THE BEST to get THE BEST.

[bahamutt99]

I agree with ABK in that papers can be important for what you want to do with the dog. For some, what they do doesn't require any papers, and that's fine. I'm not out to bash anyone's program, but I need that documentation for the ring, the track, and the trials. Since those are what I use for my proving ground, in order for my dogz to make da paper, they have to have the paper to begin with. :)

[ABK]

Red Cocaine: You cannot say that only dishonest, dishonorable breeder use CKC. I use CKC & I am honest & honorable. CKC is very popular here in MS. I dual my litters ADBA & CKC so anyone here in MS. or the surrounding states purchases one of my pups they can compete in both ADBA & CKC events.

As for your breeding concept, with all due respect, you are way off base. Most great dogmen of the past did not use best to best & several dogmen of today who adhere to the breeding styles of old do not use best to best.

Example: Mr. Clemmons bred Brendy on her first heat. I believe she was at the age of 9 mos old. If she was that young you can't tell me she was either tested or tried. Yet that breeding begot Eli Jr., Bullyson etc.

Another was Shivar's Buster. If I recall correctly, (anyone please correct me if I am wrong) he was cold & wouldn't hit a lick, but he was bred several times, even reaching ROM status. I doubt you would consider a dog who wouldn't go one of the "best."

And he wasn't the only one. There were several bitches who were bred who wouldn't crank. Would you consider them the "best?" Probably not. But dogmen of old still bred them & got phenominal results.

And lets not get started on the dogs who would go & quit, only to be tried later & bred to.

But back to the point - dogs ARE judged by their papers, whether folks on here want to admit it or not. Just look at the thread "Papers." A fellow got a CKC reg. dog & the first shred of advice he got was "spay it." No one knows the calibre of the dog in any way, shape, or form, but he is automatically told to spay the dog b/c it is CKC reg.

So deny, deny, deny as much as you want (BTW just to clarify I'm using "you" as a general term here), but the fact of the matter is dogs ARE judged by their papers.

[Red Cocaine]

Red Cocaine: You cannot say that only dishonest, dishonorable breeder use CKC. I use CKC & I am honest & honorable. CKC is very popular here in MS. I dual my litters ADBA & CKC so anyone here in MS. or the surrounding states purchases one of my pups they can compete in both ADBA & CKC events.

As for your breeding concept, with all due respect, you are way off base. Most great dogmen of the past did not use best to best & several dogmen of today who adhere to the breeding styles of old do not use best to best.

Example: Mr. Clemmons bred Brendy on her first heat. I believe she was at the age of 9 mos old. If she was that young you can't tell me she was either tested or tried. Yet that breeding begot Eli Jr., Bullyson etc.

Another was Shivar's Buster. If I recall correctly, (anyone please correct me if I am wrong) he was cold & wouldn't hit a lick, but he was bred several times, even reaching ROM status. I doubt you would consider a dog who wouldn't go one of the "best."

And he wasn't the only one. There were several bitches who were bred who wouldn't crank. Would you consider them the "best?" Probably not. But dogmen of old still bred them & got phenominal results.

And lets not get started on the dogs who would go & quit, only to be tried later & bred to.

But back to the point - dogs ARE judged by their papers, whether folks on here want to admit it or not. Just look at the thread "Papers." A fellow got a CKC reg. dog & the first shred of advice he got was "spay it." No one knows the calibre of the dog in any way, shape, or form, but he is automatically told to spay the dog b/c it is CKC reg.

So deny, deny, deny as much as you want (BTW just to clarify I'm using "you" as a general term here), but the fact of the matter is dogs ARE judged by their papers.

Hey if you use CKC good for you.... whatever cranks your nob..... But i stand by what i said....

I never said that every dogman bred the best to best.... ALLOT OF people didn't and STILL don't...

do i agree with that.... doesn't matter..... it's their program and if it works for them and the people they give dogs to.... Best of luck to em'.... when people do that it just keeps the %'s lower down the line.....

And the First bit of advice he got was Contact the Reg. them selfs....

Would you judge a dog that had no papers but came from ohh say Tudor him self... or Colby... Or Hemphill.... Or whoever.... and they told you the dog is a good one and gave you a hand wrote ped.... thats all one needs..... SO WHAT if people judge your dog..... ALL B.S. stops at that one line..... Good Dogs will remembered as such and GOOD Honest Men will be remembered as such.... regardless....

[CooljoeGoodie]

Ok lets settle this once and for all lol....There are many aspects to this breed,when you learn how to use those things in there correct place it make the breed better.There are many things that make up a dog and a piece of paper is not one of them,and there are some that need them,that can't remember and then there are some who has the ability to keep it all in their heads.But no matter what the ped says it is only a guide and does not matter to honest dogmen,until a certain point is reached .I think that it is human expectancy that does not make the dog....Now what I have said is nothing new just an opinion........

[castle]

had this lying about thought it might add to the discussion

FROM NOVICE TO EXPERT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

21 February 2002
Here is an article I pulled from the ADBA Gazette Spring 2002 issue, which I thought was pretty interesting. The article was writen by Amy Burford, the late Hank Greenwood's daughter.
...We all start out as novices, in whatever field we choose to participate in, and there is no disgrace in being a novice. How and what we choose to learn deternines to what level of "expert" we achieve and how fast we achieve it. Some people quickly find that they do not have the determination that it takes to "pay their dues" and to learn the lessons they have learn and they quickly drop out of the picture. Then there are those that spend countless years making the same mistakes over and over never progressing past the novice stage. And lastly, there are those individuals whose knowledge and understanding of sport is awe inspiring, and can be called a true expert in the dogs.

Most fanciers in the beginning, start by being attracted to one dog. That certain dog with the right look, the determined attitude, the awe-inspiring performance that compels you to find out more about the breed. I remember, my father, Ralph Greenwood,, in those early years with the APBT. His main interest was as a conditioner and handler. He said many times that good dogs can be found in every bloodline, and it was his interest to find the best ones, whether they were in his yard or the yard of friends and bring them to compete at the proper weight and in the best condition possible. He didn't spend too much energy worrying about the dog's pedigree, or if the dog was the product of line breeding, inbreeding or an out-crossed breeding. He truusted the breeder from whom he got the dog, for the selection of the brood stock, the research into the bloodlines and the careful planning of the breedings.

As Ralph moved down the path from Novice to Expert, his understanding of the dog game deepend and his focus broadened. It was in the late 1960's when I remember the focus changing to pedigrees, and what bloodlines our current dogs came from. My borther Hank, in his drafting class at the Junior High School made up blank six generation pedigree forms. Mom amd I spent hours writing out six generation pedigrees by hand on all of our dogs and the dogs of our friends. Ralph's interest went further into the individual histories of the dogs in the pedigrees of his dogs and other good dogs that he had the opportunity to see. I remember the letters and phone calls to breeders and the treasured hand written comments scrawled on the pedigrees about a certain sire or dam, ie., "3x winner," "producer of 2 champions," "best 37lb male I ever saw," etc. We soon learned that it was the history behind the dogs that made it so fascinating.

Another excellent breeder, who may be called a try EXPERT in the dogs, was Howard Heinzl. During the 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's, he produced some of the best APBT's in the western United States. Howard was not only a breeder of the APBT, but he was also interested in thoroughbred racing horses and their breeding. The summer I turned 16, I had the opportunity to spend a few weeks with Howard and his wife at his home in Tempe, Arizona. Every day, when the mid afternoon temperatures would force us inside, we would retreat to his 'study'. It was an air-conditioned back porch, where we would look over different pedigrees. We would look over pedigrees of famous race horses to see what breeding produced this horse or that horse. Howard would tell me that dog in the pedigree that we were studying. He would also tell me about upcoming breedings that he was planning and why the breeding should produce the type of dog he was hoping. He would also laugh at the end of his story to proclaim, "and with all this careful planning, rest assured it is in the lap of the Gods." It was from Howard that I gained respect for a dog's pedigree, as his disdain was evident for anyone suspected of falsyfing the breeding of a dog or a horse. One of his famous saying was, that a man who would falsify a pedigree would "steal the gold coins off of his dead mother's eyes".

It is interesting to note that this saying refers to the death ritual in England during the Victorian era. The body of a dead relative was prepared and shrouded and displayed in the parlor of the family home for relatives and friends to visit and mourn. Gold coins were placed on top of the shroud in the eye region, to buy the dead relative's entrance into Heaven. Anyone who would steal the gold coins off of his own mothers eyes, had to be lower that low! Howard understood that breeding dog is speculative enough, even when you do all of your homework, plan your breeding carefully and select quality brood stock. For a breeder to breed a dog with an unknown pedigree, it would be like going duch hunting blinkfolded. I have known of breeders wasting ten years or more breeding a line of dogs, and coming up broke.

When I get numerous email's and calls from fanciers inquiring "how do I get papers of this wonderful dog of unknown background, so I can breed him" I remind myself that these are NOVICES and in time, with education, rational counseling and experience, they can come to understand the importance of selection of quality dogs with excellent bloodlines, for ones breeding program. Without this criteria, there is no assurance of quality dogs for the future. And when I hear someone proclaiming, "the only thing that pedigree papers are food for is cleaning up puppy poop," I smile and remember the beginning, from NOVICE TO EXPERT!

[ABK]

Red Cocaine: Thank you for your blessing sir. I will continue to do what "cranks my knob" (eh, could you be any more vulgar? And yes, the spelling is "knob," not "nob")

We only have 3 clubs who put on events in our area. UKC, CKC & ADBA. But most of the gamebred folks use ADBA/CKC & I see no harm whatsoever in dualing a litter ADBA/CKC to provide those who do something w/ their dog another avenue to compete in.

As for your question, No, I would not turn down a unpapered dog from Tudor, Colby, etc. Did you not see my previous post where I mentioned aquiring some GR.CH. Sport blood, a dog who was unpapered?

But turnabout is fair play. So let me ask you, would you turn down a well bred dog who is CKC reg.? I can bet my bottom dollar you would.

Finally, with all due respect, you have made another completely erroneous statement. In the thread "papers" the OP only got only one response & the opening to the response was (and this is a direct quote) "Keep the dog, get her spayed, and forget about any papers." Nothing whatsoever was said about contacting the registry.

cooljoe: You are right, a dog does make it's papers & performance should matter above all. I guess what go me so tee'd are these folks who out of one side of their mouth whole-heartedly agree w/ the OP, yet out of the other side of their mouth they automatically judge a dog as junk if it doesn't have ADBA papers. :rolleyes:

castle: Thanks for the post, I found it to be a great read!

[TripleJ]

SPF: Papers are important to me b/c I show/pull my dogs. Without papers you cannot do this in the clubs in my area.

But they are not the end-all & be-all to me. I once was going to try to either breed to or get a pup off Booney's GR.CH. Sport & he wasn't papered.

That being said, to say papers don't matter is a crock. As I said before, all someone needs to do is come on here & say they have a CKC dog or an ADR dog or whatever, & 99.9% of the ppl will bash the living tar out of them before they even find out if the dog is any good or not.

So if papers don't matter, why judge a dog on them? But folks do it every day ...gr ch sport was off Sir dog these dogs were from B crews the story is they found sir dog and he turned out a good lot of dogs. Now I asked B. crews face to face about this and he told me Sir was out of that good old cracker jack stuff. B. crews was a dog man and did not paper a lot of dogs till they were proven. The man he got sir dog from Died and he never could paper him. NOW does that make him a un worthey DOG ? I think not YOU HAVE TO TRUST THE PEOPLE YOU DEAL WITH. I could paper a mut and alot of people would buy un seen just for paper and thats whats wrong with the dogs now. YIS J

[lumberjack]

I think paper is like some direction but most people use only paper and doing everything becouse of it to make $$.

[Highbloodbulldog]

I agree with ABK, the organization you choose to register your dogs means nothing... if we consider only the organization we assume that any hyppos registered in ADBA are purest than any gamedog registered in CKC, and of course, the ADBA breeder is much honest than a CKC breeder... this is crap!
The honestly of a breeder cannot be impressed in a paper, this is pretty ridiculous in my oppinion as papers are papers and nothing more... how many "breeders" have false papers, with an objective (as hide the dog's real blood) or without an objective (...huum, dog sellers).

[realonebulldog]

I don't exactly know what heck you said exactly, but here is my opinion on papers... The individual dog is of course the most important, but you may have a "super dog" that can't produce crap because he is out of some scatterbred junk unworthy of being bred in the first place. Pedigree is VERY important because your chances of CONSISTANTLY producing superior dogs begins with a superior pedigree. The better the dogs in the pedigree, the better your chances of great dogs. Any long time breeder knows this and if pedigree was not important, no one would line breed or inbreed to get desired dogs.

I agree but the question is always can you trust the papers...?
So at least you need one thing for sure and that is a hard selection....and if the dog is good A N D has good papers...Congratulations...
But never trust a dog being a good producer only because of his papers......

selection, selection and again selection is the key....Papers can help you....papers can fool you...;)

[ManiacKennel]

this is plain and simple no kidding if u know how your dog is breed why do u need another person to put in on paper unless u show your dogs or just like using a register to keep track for you good dogs are were u find them and that is all that needs to be said papers are a matter chioce and when ever u get this breed u should trust your breeder all the way and if they tell u how its breed u will belive it cause u trust them and there dogs :cool:

[doglady]

All I am saying is that the better the dogs in the gene pool, the better your chances are of producing more quality dogs from that breeding. Great dogs can produce some not so great dogs while on the other hand, dogs most wouldn't pay five cents for can produce exceptional dogs. The great ones just have better chances at producing quality.

~Any posts by me are for entertainment purposes only and should be viewed as fiction~

[frenchie1936]

Some people here misunderstood point in my worrning but I belive good part of people didn't.
I am not a person who want to insult nobody, like frenchy insolt me.
I just try to help people with advice, that was point of my post if someone found him self insolted in my post please accept my apologies.


first things first. it's Frenchie, no y in there. secondly, "insolt" is spelled with a u. and last but not least, i do offer my apologies if you were that offended. but try to understand where i'm coming from, someone who hasn't even introduced themselves comes on here and procedes to make a post such as yours, and it will undoubtedly ruffle some feathers. however, it was a provocative post at the very least and it engaged members in civil discussion. so for that my hat's off to ya. :)

[TripleJ]

I say burn all the paper and hide your dogs.

[Claddagh_Reds]

Whats that old saying??

just because they sell you the soup doesn't mean they will sell the recipie!!

or You throw enough crap against the wall something is bound to stick
(isn't that right IM lol)

If breeding was as simple as best to best then we all would have a yardfull of aces,. Anyone can breed 2 dogs (well lol, almost anyone ) It's what follows that matters and not everyone can do that or has the patience to do that.

and unless you personally saw every single dog bred in your dog's pedigree, how can you be sure its true? remember, alot of "reputable" people are good salesmen! There are alot of good breeders with secret recipies and why should they share with someone else? lol

I think people are confusing PEDIGREE with "registered". registered is simply that the dog has some official looking paper with it's name and a mumber on it from some organization that keeps a record of it. (side note, a dog that has papers is basically a registered dog, ) A dog doesn';t have to be "registered" to have a "pedigree". All dogs truthfully have a pedigree, a pedgiree is nothing more than a family tree. Sometimes it's correct, sometimes is simply not known.. sometimes is so full of bs ... a pedigree does matter when it comes to breeding. THE REGISTRY DOES NOT

[Iron Mike]

Joe Corvino once said: "Dog makes the papers, papers don't make the dog."
He also said: "Good dogs are were you find them."

Then there is the saying: "Blood always tell."
"Game Dogs produce Game Dogs and Curs produce Curs."

All the pedigree does is enhence your chances of getting a good dog when it grows up.

Traits are recessive and so is quality. jmo

[masta of game]

Joe Corvino once said: "Dog makes the papers, papers don't make the dog."
He also said: "Good dogs are were you find them."

Then there is the saying: "Blood always tell."
"Game Dogs produce Game Dogs and Curs produce Curs."

All the pedigree does is enhence your chances of getting a good dog when it grows up.

Traits are recessive and so is quality. jmo

didnt jeep run away from jocko.. so why was he bred if dogmen believed Curs produce Curs

[oldstylepits]

Sorry I haven't introduced myself but I just read this post and being the daughter of one of these old time dog men I recognize all the names of these great dogs. Some times when a litter would produce a cold dog and the rest awesome dogs the cold dog could be saved for breeding and the others used for sport because it's always a good idea in this game to keep a strand of the blood you get nice results from safe. Face it a cold dog had a lot longer life expectency and the same genes

[SPF]

didnt jeep run away from jocko.. so why was he bred if dogmen believed Curs produce Curs

It has been rumored that Jeep's OWNER ducked Jocko..

You should do some research before typing stuff like this on the board..I didnt notice a question mark at the end of your statment,so I am assuming that you are stating what you believe to be fact and not asking if he ran,right?.
Jeep was bred because he was "great" dog..

[SPF]

Sorry I haven't introduced myself but I just read this post and being the daughter of one of these old time dog men I recognize all the names of these great dogs. Some times when a litter would produce a cold dog and the rest awesome dogs the cold dog could be saved for breeding and the others used for sport because it's always a good idea in this game to keep a strand of the blood you get nice results from safe. Face it a cold dog had a lot longer life expectency and the same genes

So let me get this straight...
If you get a litter of "awsome" dogs you could keep the oddball cold one for breeding because he has the same genes as his "awsome" siblings?.What am I missing here?.
If siblings all have the same genes than how come none of Yellows siblings (with the exception of Sassy who produced well)produced dogs like Yellow did?.How come Reno didnt produce as well as his brother Jeep,etc ?.
Im not trying to argue with you,I would just like to know more about this "breeding method"..Maybe if there was DNA verified straws of Lil' Gator out there,but besides that I wouldnt even think about breeding to a cold dog..

[Bullyson]

I've heard of breeding dogs that have never been to the woods if they're brood stock. You wouldn't know if they were cold or not. Just to cross whats tight with what you need. Cull through the litter/litters and see what you get. Who can say whats right or wrong as long as you keep them all and the dogs don't end up in the wrong hands being bred by idiots. I know I've heard of cold dogs that could produce. I don't remeber off hand which dog, but I'm sure someone does. YIS, DJ.

[HBK]

Example: Mr. Clemmons bred Brendy on her first heat. I believe she was at the age of 9 mos old. If she was that young you can't tell me she was either tested or tried. Yet that breeding begot Eli Jr., Bullyson etc.



You are mistaken. ELi Jr., Bullyson and Brendy are siblings. Spook is their dam and Eli the sire. Clemmons has bred dogs on there first heat though FWIW. As far as Spook is concerned she was looked at real hard. If I remember it took a week but they finally got her to quit, but she showed them enough to keep and use obviously. I am still under the opinion that on a given day any dog will quit and I don't think any honest person will dissagree with this. You breed what you think will win and produce winners and papers are a handy tool in doing this. No one in their right mind believes that papers intrinsicly makes a dog actually do anything "better". Only a fool thinks that, but paper in what ever form you prefer ( hand written,adba,ckc,aadr) is a valuable and IMHO a necessary tool to breed dogs correctly.

Look at Honybunch the greatest producing bitch probably ever, she wouldn't go on her 1st look and you know what?? They bred her anyway and tried her again later. The rest is history. It probably had something to do with her "papers" or at least how they read anyway :-)

axiom

[mac 11]

Papers dont make a dog, but papers do help foresee what a dog MAY become.

[Puppet Master]

Those who do not understand the importance and value in knowing something about the dogs and/or men who are responsible for creating the dogs they personally feed are truly not worth arguing with.

As for Ch 35, it is far more likely that he was not found wondering the streets as a mutt, but rather found at the end of a chain while his owner was caught slipping. When was the last time you walked outside and seen a Gamedog trotting down the road? I don't know about you Gentlemen, but I know the Dogmen in my neck of the woods, and ain't none of their dogs, or mine, going to trot day and night just to walk past another Dogman's yard countless miles away. Now I have heard many dog thieves, or those who don't mind taking dogs from dog thieves, say that the just happen to find a Bulldog. What are they, dog catchers? Concerned citizens that pick up every stray dog they see and then set it down in the box? I don't know anyone that would be compelled to round up stray mutts, set them down, and then breed them.

With Respect, pmk

[ABK]

Good post HBK & thanks for the correction. ;)

[cutthroat]

Knowing WHERE you are gaining traits from (both positive and negative) , and where the foundation of your genepool was formed, is in our opinion, essential to producing solid dogs consistantly. Other breeders or yards may disagree in their philosophy... as is their right... That doesn't make them wrong, or make us right. Having said this, we are experiencing some great success through the use of these methods

[masta of game]

I've heard of breeding dogs that have never been to the woods if they're brood stock. You wouldn't know if they were cold or not. Just to cross whats tight with what you need. Cull through the litter/litters and see what you get. Who can say whats right or wrong as long as you keep them all and the dogs don't end up in the wrong hands being bred by idiots. I know I've heard of cold dogs that could produce. I don't remeber off hand which dog, but I'm sure someone does. YIS, DJ.

cates told me GR CH NIGERINO's mother was cold

[ImMe]

I think it all comes down to what's the person preference, just as we all like different lines of dogs for different reasons... Some people need papers and some dont. Some can trust their breeders and the others need that paper to back it up.. Its a lot of old timers that hand write their peds, and have no interest in using a registry... JMO


As far as cold dogs and breeding untested dogs, i have heard that with my own 2 ears talking to a old-timer.. His exact words were "Never touch your brood female, because if you do you going to mess her up and i have seen a lot of good dogs go to waste".. And i wouldnt count a cold dog out, you have to understand every dog dont mature as the other ones will. you give a good breed dog some time, and a little TLC and watch what happens.... Everyone says breed this and that, and this Ch and this winner, but the main key to success is PATIENCE and TIME!!!!

[cheese]

I have heard little gator rom was cold all his life
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=siblings&dog_id=9466

[Bullyson]

The dog in TripleJ's sig was the brood dog for ATK for quite a while. That bitch will stay on a hog until the job is done. She is bred TIGHT TIGHT TIGHT. Would be brood only to some, but that bitch can hunt, so why not let her? The last litter off of her was supposed to be all brood stock but they were left in the hands of a jackass and were all ruined. Supposed "Partner" was a dumbass green, greedy ass switchout.:rolleyes: Live and learn. YIS, DJ.

[SPF]

Im suprised that some people condone the breeding of cold or untested animals..Brood stock should never be touched?.Are you kidding me?.
Just because a dog is bred tight he/she is brood stock and shouldnt be held to the standards of a dog bred not as tight?.HA!.
Some of you dont have a clue..

A dog has to EARN the title brood stock on my yard..People who call there animals brood without doing anything with them are either SCARED to find out the truth,or out to try and make some money..Breeding cold or untested dogs is taking a step back in your program PERIOD..

And before you internet doggers go to spouting off at you ignorant ass mouths about cold dogs that have produced well,just remember that for every cold dog that produced well there are 1000's of them that didnt..Breed garbage dogs,wait 2-3-4 yrs on your "cold" dog,and stay patient if you want,but I personally wouldnt go that route..Breed your cold/untested dogs and in a few years when nothing works out you'll be in the same spot you are today..

This is my opinion,and I am in no way trying to push my views on anyone..

** When I mention phrases like untested and dogs not getting checked,I am refering to any one of the many legal venues that people compete with their dogs in..I am in no way talking about anything illegal,because as my signature states I am opposed to ANY and ALL forms of animal cruelty..

[Puppet Master]

People can clearly bred what they want, however, the only test I know for a brood dog, so be it a cold dog, cur dog, gamedog, winner, loser, or whatever people choose to breed, is found in what they produce.

If they cannot produce, then I wont breed them, and I surely would not call a dog that has not proven to produce, or one that has failed to be a solid producer, a brood dog. I don't care how good they are as bulldogs, if they fail to produce then they are not worthy or deserving of brood stock in my opinion.

[ImMe]

Im suprised that some people condone the breeding of cold or untested animals..Brood stock should never be touched?.Are you kidding me?.
Just because a dog is bred tight he/she is brood stock and shouldnt be held to the standards of a dog bred not as tight?.HA!.
Some of you dont have a clue..

A dog has to EARN the title brood stock on my yard..People who call there animals brood without doing anything with them are either SCARED to find out the truth,or out to try and make some money..Breeding cold or untested dogs is taking a step back in your program PERIOD..

And before you internet doggers go to spouting off at you ignorant ass mouths about cold dogs that have produced well,just remember that for every cold dog that produced well there are 1000's of them that didnt..Breed garbage dogs,wait 2-3-4 yrs on your "cold" dog,and stay patient if you want,but I personally wouldnt go that route..Breed your cold/untested dogs and in a few years when nothing works out you'll be in the same spot you are today..

This is my opinion,and I am in no way trying to push my views on anyone..

I understand where you coming from and dnt disagree with you, you could be right who knows... But if you read the post it said that, that was they way of some old-timers... Im no breeder and a longs way from it and was just sharing what i heard... As far as testiing your brood stock some do it and some dont, ( me im not at that point) TO EACH HIS OWN.. That was the whole purpose of the first post, everyone is different and have a different method for everything no matter what it is... Ex.. Sports, we have different sports and different teams for each sport because we all like different sports, and we like how this coach or that coach lead his team and so on.. As far as a cold dog, im not saying breed them... Im saying let them grow and mature first, some people will cull a good dog because it didnt start up at 15 or 16 months as they on fire redboy dog did.. all im saying is each dog is different some will start a lot faster and some will start a lot slower.... And no matter if you breeding tested, untested, cold, or whatever you still need TIME and PATIENCE

[SPF]

People can clearly bred what they want, however, the only test I know for a brood dog, so be it a cold dog, cur dog, gamedog, winner, loser, or whatever people choose to breed, is found in what they produce.

If they cannot produce, then I wont breed them, and I surely would not call a dog that has not proven to produce, or one that has failed to be a solid producer, a brood dog. I don't care how good they are as bulldogs, if they fail to produce then they are not worthy or deserving of brood stock in my opinion.


I agree with the first part of your post,but in MY OPINION a dog has to earn the right to be bred..

[SPF]

I understand where you coming from and dnt disagree with you, you could be right who knows... But if you read the post it said that, that was they way of some old-timers... Im no breeder and a longs way from it and was just sharing what i heard... As far as testiing your brood stock some do it and some dont, ( me im not at that point) TO EACH HIS OWN.. That was the whole purpose of the first post, everyone is different and have a different method for everything no matter what it is... Ex.. Sports, we have different sports and different teams for each sport because we all like different sports, and we like how this coach or that coach lead his team and so on.. As far as a cold dog, im not saying breed them... Im saying let them grow and mature first, some people will cull a good dog because it didnt start up at 15 or 16 months as they on fire redboy dog did.. all im saying is each dog is different some will start a lot faster and some will start a lot slower.... And no matter if you breeding tested, untested, cold, or whatever you still need TIME and PATIENCE

I wasnt argueing with you (the poster) I was argueing with the post itself, regardless if it was you or an old timer who stated that you should "never touch your brood female,because if you do you going to mess her up,and I seen alot of good dogs go to waste"..:)

Not checking or even touching the dogs that you plan on using in a breeding program is something a AmStaff breeder would do..

As far as you saying TO EACH HIS OWN in regards to people checking their brood stock, I agree 100%..Thats why I clearly stated that this was my opinion,and that I wasnt trying to push my views on others..

[btlover]

This post is so true. But in todays time we need the peper to help keep the dogs. Wut we are trying to do at ANDR is to try and help save our way of life. By helping all of us with dog registry and legal help for all of us. You can run. But you can't hide. We don't know how to run.


http://www.americannationaldogregistry.com

[JBlazeRx7]

Hey What's up Folks
I agree that papers don't make a dog,the dog is what makes the paper's. I also agree that paper's do make a good base's for what your lookin for in a dog by lookin and considering what trait's, percentage and known abilities the bloodlines have carried true through the years. Like good mouth, natural wind and certain finnesse a dog has which is like the old CH's and GR CH's of way back when! People always talk about how that bloodline produces long wind and how that one gives off great mouthed dog's. Well those guy's wouldn't be talkin like that if it wasn't for that constantly registered dog! All you great dog men and ladies are makin history and the ONLY way for the newer generation to even remotely hear about a dog out there is through research lookin for that CH Jeep or GR CH Zebo is most of the time through the paper's. In the hopes of gettin that same dog or remotely close! I sure there are alot of good dog's out there that we or I haven't heard about but paper's are HISTORY and that's what makes these dog's for the new comer's more valueable for HISTORY's record's!